Is Jesus Christ Equal To God?
Is Jesus Christ equal to God? Based on the following scripture, and what they have heard, or been told, many people think so.
“For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the sabbath, but was also calling God his own Father, thereby making himself equal to God” (John 5:19 NRSV).
If we look at this scripture closely, and think about it logically, there are three serious problems with the claim that Jesus made himself equal with God, and so he must be God..
1. The claim was made by his enemies, the murderous ‘Jews who were seeking to kill him’.
2. They claimed Jesus had ‘broken the Sabbath’, but the Bible says that Jesus “never sinned” (1 Peter 2:22 NLT).
3. The phrase, “making himself equal to God“, is evidence against the claim that some make, namely, “Jesus is God.” The scripture doesn’t say that. Saying Jesus was “equal to God”, indicates that Jesus is not God. The scripture eliminates that possibility.
“Jesus did indeed claim equality with God by healing on the Sabbath” (The Forgotten Trinity, page 88, by James White).
The above statement is false because the apostles and their associates healed people, and they were certainly not equal to God. The power to heal, indeed, does come from God, but doesn’t make one God. When Jesus healed a paralytic, “the crowd . . . praised God for sending a man with such authority” (Matthew 9:8 NLT 2013). God sent the man Jesus with the authority to heal, but that didn’t make him equal to God.
WHILE JESUS WAS ON EARTH, PRIOR TO DEATH
But is he equal to God? Let’s look at the next scripture to see how Jesus replied:
“Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise'” (John 5:19 ESV). Jesus made very clear that he was not equal to God. Jesus made many statements during his earthly ministry that indicate his inferiority to his Father. Some examples are:
“When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me” (John 8:29 ESV). Jesus’ authority comes from his Father.
“I have not spoken on my own authority” (John 12:49 ESV). “The Father who sent me commanded me what to say and to speak” (John 12:49 NAB). The Father commands Jesus. The commander is superior to the one he commands.
“The Father is greater than I am” (John 14:28 ISV; NLT; GWT; NET; Weymouth). This statement by Jesus clearly debunks the Trinitarian equality claim.
“I am the true vine and my Father is the vine grower” (John 15:1 NAB). The vine grower, the Father, is greater than the vine, Jesus.
“Father . . . this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the now whom you sent, Jesus Christ” (John 17:3 NAB). Jesus calls his Father “the only true God”.
AFTER JESUS’ DEATH and RESURRECTION
How about after Jesus’ death and resurrection? Was he equal then?
“Jesus said . . . ‘ I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God'” (John 20:17). Jesus said his Father was his God, so obviously, God is superior to Christ, still.
“Who, although he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped” (Philippians 2:6 NAB). Looking back on Christ’s time in heaven prior to coming to earth, the verse explains that Christ never thought he was equal to God. The NAB note on this verse explains: “though . . . in the form of God (Gn 1:26-27), did not reach out for equality with God, in contrast with the first Adam in Gn 3:5-6″. So Jesus never even thought about trying to become equal to God. Christ’s attitude of humility prior to coming to earth, is presented to Christians as the example to follow
“The head of Christ is God” (1 Corinthians 11:3). Even many years after his resurrection, God has headship over Christ, so there is no equality.
“Jesus Christ . . . has made us to be a kingdom to serve his God and Father” (Revelation 1:5,6 NIV). The Bible’s final book, Revelation, refers to Jesus’ “God and Father”. The Father is Jesus’ God. Anyone who has a God over them is an inferior to their God.
“My God” (Revelation 3:12). Jesus uses this expression 4 times in this one verse, which emphasizes his subordination to his God.
“Then the end will come come when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father . . . Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him, it is clear that does not include God himself, who put everything under him, it is clear that this does not include God, who put everything under under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will made made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28 NIV). For all future eternity, Christ will be subject to God, and thus, never will there be any equality between Christ and God.
Is Jesus Christ equal to God? — According to the scriptures, the inspired 66 books of the Bible, no, Jesus Christ is not equal to God!
70 thoughts on “Is Jesus Christ Equal To God?”
BA1: Is Jesus Christ equal to God?
GW1: No, of course not. Jesus was a real human person who lived and died in the first century CE. God is a hypothetical supernatural person, now proven to not exist.
BA1: Based on the following scripture, and what they have heard, or been told, many people think so.
GW1: Yes, some Bible verses imply that Jesus was God, but they are mistaken. Christians seem to be divided in their views of Jesus: 1) Jesus was God incarnate. 2) Jesus was the Son of God, similar to God but not the same. 3) Jesus was a messenger of God and had been given some supernatural powers by God. 4) Jesus was just a traveling preacher who believed in God. I wonder what are the percentages of people, especially Christians, who have these differing views. If God did exist, this difference of opinion would not exist.
BA1: “For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the sabbath, but was also calling God his own Father, thereby making himself equal to God” (John 5:19 NRSV).
GW1: This is an irrational inference by the Jews. Jesus may have said that God was his father, but this would not necessarily make him equal to or identical to God, his father.
BA1: If we look at this scripture closely, and think about it logically, there are three serious problems with the claim that Jesus made himself equal with God, and so he must be God..
1. The claim was made by his enemies, the murderous ‘Jews who were seeking to kill him’.
GW1: Good point. Enemies are more likely to speak falsehoods about their opponents.
BA1: 2. They claimed Jesus had ‘broken the Sabbath’, but the Bible says that Jesus “never sinned” (1 Peter 2:22 NLT).
GW1: This just shows that different Biblical verses contradict each other and that all of the Bible could not be divinely inspired. These contradictions pertaining to God would never occur, if God did exist.
B A1: 3. The phrase, “making himself equal to God”, is evidence against the claim that some make, namely, “Jesus is God.” The scripture doesn’t say that. Saying Jesus was “equal to God”, indicates that Jesus is not God. The scripture eliminates that possibility.
GW1: Another good point. “Equal to” is not the same as “is.”
BA1: “Jesus did indeed claim equality with God by healing on the Sabbath” (The Forgotten Trinity, page 88, by James White).
GW1: Even if Jesus said it, it cannot be true. Jesus might be equal to God in some ways, but not in all ways.
BA1: The above statement is false because the apostles and their associates healed people, and they were certainly not equal to God.
GW1: That is correct. If he did exist, God would be omnipotent, having far more powers than just the power to heal.
BA1: The power to heal, indeed, does come from God, but doesn’t make one God.
GW1: False. Medical workers have some healing powers, but God does not exist and thus does not heal anyone.
BA1: When Jesus healed a paralytic, “the crowd . . . praised God for sending a man with such authority” (Matthew 9:8 NLT 2013). God sent the man Jesus with the authority to heal, but that didn’t make him equal to God.
GW1: Yes, I agree with your interpretation here, but I don’t think Jesus healed a paralytic. There are several good naturalistic explanations of the alleged healing.
WHILE JESUS WAS ON EARTH, PRIOR TO DEATH
BA1: But is he equal to God?
GW1: No, of course not.
BA1: Let’s look at the next scripture to see how Jesus replied:
“Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise'” (John 5:19 ESV). Jesus made very clear that he was not equal to God.
GW1: Jesus is implying that God delegates or assigns powers to him.
BA1: Jesus made many statements during earthly ministry that indicate his inferiority to his Father. Some examples are:
“When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me” (John 8:29 ESV). Jesus’ authority comes from his Father.
GW1: Jesus was taught by God, and so Jesus must be inferior to God.
BA1: “I have not spoken on my own authority” (John 12:49 ESV). “The Father who sent me commanded me what to say and to speak” (John 12:49 NAB). The Father commands Jesus. The commander is superior to the one he commands.
GW1: Yes, I agree. According to some verses, Jesus was reluctant to be crucified, but God insisted on it and arranged it.
“The Father is greater than I am” (John 14:28 ISV; NLT; GWT; NET; Weymouth). This statement by Jesus clearly debunks the Trinitarian equality claim.
BA1: “I am the true vine and my Father is the vine grower” (John 15:1 NAB). The vine grower, the Father, is greater than the vine, Jesus.
GW1: Yep, I agree.
BA1: “Father . . . this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the now whom you sent, Jesus Christ” (John 17:3 NAB). Jesus calls his Father “the only true God”.
GW1: This is also evidence against the traditional explanation of the Trinity.
AFTER JESUS’ DEATH and RESURRECTION
BA1: How about after Jesus’ death and resurrection? Was he equal then?
“Jesus said . . . ‘ I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God'” (John 20:17). Jesus said his Father was his God, so obviously, God is superior to Christ, still.
GW1: I agree.
BA1: “Who, although he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped” (Philippians 2:6 NAB). Looking back on Christ’s time in heaven prior to coming to earth, the verse explains that Christ never thought he was equal to God. The NAB note on this verse explains: “though . . . in the form of God (Gn 1:26-27), did not reach out for equality with God, in contrast with the first Adam in Gn 3:5-6”. So Jesus never even thought about trying to become equal to God. Christ’s attitude of humility prior to coming to earth, is presented to Christians as the example to follow
GW1: I agree, and I believe Bart Ehrman agrees with us on this point and has published on it.
BA1: “The head of Christ is God” (1 Corinthians 11:3). Even many years after his resurrection, God has headship over Christ, so there is no equality.
GW1: Agreed.
BA1: “Jesus Christ . . . has made us to be a kingdom to serve his God and Father” (Revelation 1:5,6 NIV). The Bible’s final book, Revelation, refers to Jesus’ “God and Father”. The Father is Jesus’ God. Anyone who has a God over them is an inferior to their God.
GW1: Agreed.
BA1: “My God” (Revelation 3:12). Jesus uses this expression 4 times in this one verse, which emphasizes his subordination to his God.
GW1: Agreed.
BA1: “Then the end will come come when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father . . . Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him, it is clear that does not include God himself, who put everything under him, it is clear that this does not include God, who put everything under under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will made made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28 NIV). For all future eternity, Christ will be subject to God, and thus, never will there be any equality between Christ and God.
GW1: Agreed.
BA1: Is Jesus Christ equal to God? — According to the scriptures, the inspired 66 books of the Bible, no, Jesus Christ is not equal to God!
GW1: Yes, Jesus was not equal to God, and never will be. However, although you can make this correct inference from several of the books of the Bible, you can’t make it from all 66 books. Genesis doesn’t even mention Jesus. Also, none of the books was inspired by God. Why? Because God does not exist, and this has been proven. If God did exist, there wouldn’t be so much disagreement about him.
Please see the just published article on this site, “The Brain Is Incredibly Complex — Evidence of a Creator”, for newly discovered evidence that causes reasonable people conclude that God exists.
We’ll get back with you later with more in reference to your other comments above.
BA1: Is Jesus Christ equal to God?
GW1: No, of course not. Jesus was a real human person who lived and died in the first century CE
Jesus was “fully human in every way” (Hebrews 2:17 NIV).
GW- God is a hypothetical supernatural person, now proven to not exist.
“Godless fools say in their hearts, ‘There is no God” (Psalm 14:1 GWT)
GW–some Bible verses imply that Jesus was God, but they are mistaken.
No verses ‘imply Jesus was Almighty God.’ Some indicate he was godlike (John 1:1; Hebrews 1:9), but some humans are referred to that way also (Exodus 7:1; Psalm 45:6; 82:1,6; John 10:34). Jesus himself has “God” over him (Psalm 45:7; Hebrews 1:9: Revelation 1:6; 3:12), so he can’t be God.
GW–2) Jesus was the Son of God, similar to God but not the same. 3) Jesus was a messenger of God and had been given some supernatural powers by God.
Both of these statements are true.
GW–If God did exist, this difference of opinion would not exist.
Not true, “the god of this world has blinded the minds of” many people (2 Corinthians 4:4 ESV). Even in the 1st century, there were “divisions among” Christians, and they were not all “united in the same mind and in the same purpose” (1 Corinthians 1:10 NAB). The Bible’s candor is an evidence of its divine inspiration (2 Timothy 3:16).
BA1: “For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the sabbath, but was also calling God his own Father, thereby making himself equal to God” (John 5:19 NRSV).
GW1: This is an irrational inference by the Jews. Jesus may have said that God was his father, but this would not necessarily make him equal to or identical to God, his father.
True.
BA1: 2. They claimed Jesus had ‘broken the Sabbath’, but the Bible says that Jesus “never sinned” (1 Peter 2:22 NLT).
GW1: This just shows that different Biblical verses contradict each other and that all of the Bible could not be divinely inspired. These contradictions pertaining to God would never occur, if God did exist.
No contradiction whatsoever. The Bible reports the historical facts. These slanders were made by “the Jews” who “began to harass Jesus” (John 5:16 NLT). This could be illustrated by the fairly recent claims that the 2020 US Presidential election “stolen” from D. Trump. The the contradictory claims made by both sides on this issue mean there is no truth at all?
BA1: “Jesus did indeed claim equality with God by healing on the Sabbath” (The Forgotten Trinity, page 88, by James White).
GW1: Even if Jesus said it, it cannot be true. Jesus might be equal to God in some ways, but not in all ways
No, Jesus “did not regard equality God something to be grasped” (Philippians 2:6 NAB). “Jesus did not reach out for equality with God, in contrast to the first Adam in Gn 3:5-6” (NAB note on Philippians 2:6). Jesus said, “the Father is greater than I am” (John 14:28 ISV).
BA1: Is Jesus Christ equal to God? — According to the scriptures, the inspired 66 books of the Bible, no, Jesus Christ is not equal to God!
GW1: Yes, Jesus was not equal to God, and never will be. However, although you can make this correct inference from several of the books of the Bible, you can’t make it from all 66 books. Genesis doesn’t even mention Jesus.
No, actually the Messiah, Jesus IS predicted in Genesis as being the “seed” in Genesis 3:15; 13:15,17; 15:18; 17:8 NASB; Galatians 3:16 NASB), and as “Shiloh” in Genesis 49:10 NASB). Jesus truthfully said that, “everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (Luke 24:44 NIV), that is, what we refer to as the entire Old Testament.In these prophecies, however, Jesus is never referred to as God, but always as someone lesser than God. Hundreds of these prophecies have already come true. None have proven false.
GW—Also, none of the books was inspired by God.
“All scripture is inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB). You cannot prove your assertion.
GW—Why? Because God does not exist, and this has been proven.
No, it hasn’t.
GW–If God did exist, there wouldn’t be so much disagreement about him.
Using your flawed logic, if the 2020 US Presidential election had really occurred, “there wouldn’t be so much disagreement about” it.
BA1: Is Jesus Christ equal to God?
GW1: No, of course not. Jesus was a real human person who lived and died in the first century CE
BA2: Jesus was “fully human in every way” (Hebrews 2:17 NIV).
GW2: We agree.
GW1: God is a hypothetical supernatural person, now proven to not exist.
BA2: “Godless fools say in their hearts, ‘There is no God” (Psalm 14:1 GWT)
GW2: But wise persons say it aloud.
GW1: some Bible verses imply that Jesus was God, but they are mistaken.
BA2: No verses ‘imply Jesus was Almighty God.’ Some indicate he was godlike (John 1:1; Hebrews 1:9), but some humans are referred to that way also (Exodus 7:1; Psalm 45:6; 82:1,6; John 10:34). Jesus himself has “God” over him (Psalm 45:7; Hebrews 1:9: Revelation 1:6; 3:12), so he can’t be God.
GW2: False. Some verses imply that Jesus was God. Here is just one: “I and the Father are one.” John 10:30 NIV. So, your claim of “no verses” is refuted.
GW1: 2) Jesus was the Son of God, similar to God but not the same. 3) Jesus was a messenger of God and had been given some supernatural powers by God.
BA2: Both of these statements are true.
GW2: Both of these statements are speculations of Christians, and they are both false.
GW1: If God did exist, this difference of opinion would not exist.
BA2: Not true, “the god of this world has blinded the minds of” many people (2 Corinthians 4:4 ESV).
GW2: Are you speaking of Satan? Then, you are speaking nonsense. If God did exist, God would not create Satan at all or would destroy him after his first bad act. And even though God does not exist, there is no good evidence for the existence of Satan.
BA2: Even in the 1st century, there were “divisions among” Christians, and they were not all “united in the same mind and in the same purpose” (1 Corinthians 1:10 NAB). The Bible’s candor is an evidence of its divine inspiration (2 Timothy 3:16).
GW2: You are missing the point. If God did exist, there would be no divisions among people regarding God. Why? Because God would regularly communicate in-person with all living persons at the same time! The Bible is not divinely inspired or written. How could it be? It has been proven that God does not exist.
BA1: “For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the sabbath, but was also calling God his own Father, thereby making himself equal to God” (John 5:19 NRSV).
GW1: This is an irrational inference by the Jews. Jesus may have said that God was his father, but this would not necessarily make him equal to or identical to God, his father.
BA2: True.
GW2: Then we agree on this point.
BA1: 2. They claimed Jesus had ‘broken the Sabbath’, but the Bible says that Jesus “never sinned” (1 Peter 2:22 NLT).
GW1: This just shows that different Biblical verses contradict each other and that all of the Bible could not be divinely inspired. These contradictions pertaining to God would never occur, if God did exist.
BA2: No contradiction whatsoever. The Bible reports the historical facts. These slanders were made by “the Jews” who “began to harass Jesus” (John 5:16 NLT).
GW2: There is a contradiction. The Jews claimed Jesus sinned. One or more authors of the Gospels claimed Jesus never sinned. So, the different sources contradict each other. If God did exist, we wouldn’t have this. Why? Because he would regularly communicate in-person to all living persons at the same time, and he would not contradict himself. Duh.
BA2: This could be illustrated by the fairly recent claims that the 2020 US Presidential election “stolen” from D. Trump. The the contradictory claims made by both sides on this issue mean there is no truth at all?
GW2: Of course there is truth. It is true that Trump lost the election. God is not referenced in that controversy. Your mention of the election is irrelevant here.
BA1: “Jesus did indeed claim equality with God by healing on the Sabbath” (The Forgotten Trinity, page 88, by James White).
GW1: Even if Jesus said it, it cannot be true. Jesus might be equal to God in some ways, but not in all ways
BA2: No, Jesus “did not regard equality God something to be grasped” (Philippians 2:6 NAB). “Jesus did not reach out for equality with God, in contrast to the first Adam in Gn 3:5-6” (NAB note on Philippians 2:6). Jesus said, “the Father is greater than I am” (John 14:28 ISV).
GW2: I think we agree that Jesus was not God and was not equal to God.
BA1: Is Jesus Christ equal to God? — According to the scriptures, the inspired 66 books of the Bible, no, Jesus Christ is not equal to God!
GW1: Yes, Jesus was not equal to God, and never will be. However, although you can make this correct inference from several of the books of the Bible, you can’t make it from all 66 books. Genesis doesn’t even mention Jesus.
BA2: No, actually the Messiah, Jesus IS predicted in Genesis as being the “seed” in Genesis 3:15; 13:15,17; 15:18; 17:8 NASB; Galatians 3:16 NASB), and as “Shiloh” in Genesis 49:10 NASB).
GW2: False. Jesus is not even mentioned in most books of the Bible, so your claim is refuted. You are engaged in question begging here – assuming that Jesus was the Messiah or a messiah, when this has never been proven. You will not find the term “Jesus of Nazareth” in the book of Genesis. You know this. Stop spreading disinformation.
BA2: Jesus truthfully said that, “everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (Luke 24:44 NIV), that is, what we refer to as the entire Old Testament.In these prophecies, however, Jesus is never referred to as God, but always as someone lesser than God. Hundreds of these prophecies have already come true. None have proven false.
GW2: Jesus was mistaken. Nothing was written of him in the OT. Where in the OT is “Jesus of Nazareth” mentioned? Nowhere! Also, if God did exist, he would not communicate through books written by men. Duh.
GW1: Also, none of the books was inspired by God.
BA2: “All scripture is inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB). You cannot prove your assertion.
GW2: Yes, I can! 1. Genesis 1:1 NIV says: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” 2. If God did exist and inspired the Bible, there would be no false statements in it. 3. But Genesis 1:1 is a false statement. 4. Therefore, the Bible was not inspired by God.
GW1: Why? Because God does not exist, and this has been proven.
BA2: No, it hasn’t.
GW2: Of course it has! First, you have mostly evaded my proofs. And secondly, for the one you paid some attention to, you never found an error. Until somebody finds at least one error in each of my arguments, then nobody should believe that God exists.
GW1: If God did exist, there wouldn’t be so much disagreement about him.
BA2: Using your flawed logic, if the 2020 US Presidential election had really occurred, “there wouldn’t be so much disagreement about” it.
GW2: My logic is perfect, and your analogy doesn’t work. If God really did exist, there would not be any disagreement about his existence or about his communications. Why? Because he would regularly communicate in-person to all living persons at the same time! When has this ever occurred? NEVER. Therefore, God does not exist.
BA2: No verses ‘imply Jesus was Almighty God.’ Some indicate he was godlike (John 1:1; Hebrews 1:9), but some humans are referred to that way also (Exodus 7:1; Psalm 45:6; 82:1,6; John 10:34). Jesus himself has “God” over him (Psalm 45:7; Hebrews 1:9: Revelation 1:6; 3:12), so he can’t be God.
GW2: False. Some verses imply that Jesus was God. Here is just one: “I and the Father are one.” John 10:30 NIV. So, your claim of “no verses” is refuted.
No, it’s not referring to identity, but unity. “One” in John 10:30 is the Greek word “hen”, in the neuter gender, meaning “one in unity”, the same as in John 17:11,21,22, where Jesus prays for his disciples to be “one” as he and his Father are “one”.
BA2: This could be illustrated by the fairly recent claims that the 2020 US Presidential election “stolen” from D. Trump. The the contradictory claims made by both sides on this issue mean there is no truth at all?
GW2: Of course there is truth. It is true that Trump lost the election. God is not referenced in that controversy. Your mention of the election is irrelevant here.
No, it’s completely relevant.
BA2: No, actually the Messiah, Jesus IS predicted in Genesis as being the “seed” in Genesis 3:15; 13:15,17; 15:18; 17:8 NASB; Galatians 3:16 NASB), and as “Shiloh” in Genesis 49:10 NASB).
GW2: False. Jesus is not even mentioned in most books of the Bible, so your claim is refuted. You are engaged in question begging here – assuming that Jesus was the Messiah or a messiah, when this has never been proven. You will not find the term “Jesus of Nazareth” in the book of Genesis. You know this. Stop spreading disinformation
No, Jesus is mentioned in Genesis in cryptic prophetic terms.
GW1: If God did exist, there wouldn’t be so much disagreement about him.
BA2: Using your flawed logic, if the 2020 US Presidential election had really occurred, “there wouldn’t be so much disagreement about” it.
GW2: My logic is perfect, and your analogy doesn’t work. If God really did exist, there would not be any disagreement about his existence or about his communications. Why? Because he would regularly communicate in-person to all living persons at the same time! When has this ever occurred? NEVER. Therefore, God does not exist.
Sorry, but your logic is debunked by the widely divergent claims about the 2020 election!
BA2: No verses ‘imply Jesus was Almighty God.’ Some indicate he was godlike (John 1:1; Hebrews 1:9), but some humans are referred to that way also (Exodus 7:1; Psalm 45:6; 82:1,6; John 10:34). Jesus himself has “God” over him (Psalm 45:7; Hebrews 1:9: Revelation 1:6; 3:12), so he can’t be God.
GW2: False. Some verses imply that Jesus was God. Here is just one: “I and the Father are one.” John 10:30 NIV. So, your claim of “no verses” is refuted.
BA3: No, it’s not referring to identity, but unity. “One” in John 10:30 is the Greek word “hen”, in the neuter gender, meaning “one in unity”, the same as in John 17:11,21,22, where Jesus prays for his disciples to be “one” as he and his Father are “one”.
GW3: The verse implies identity, although we agree that the verse has other interpretations. But your claim of “no verses” is refuted by just this one verse. You are prone to exaggerations.
BA2: This could be illustrated by the fairly recent claims that the 2020 US Presidential election “stolen” from D. Trump. The the contradictory claims made by both sides on this issue mean there is no truth at all?
GW2: Of course there is truth. It is true that Trump lost the election. God is not referenced in that controversy. Your mention of the election is irrelevant here.
BA3: No, it’s completely relevant.
GW3: No, it’s irrelevant. In the controversy about the election, nobody is claiming God has communicated a conclusion.
BA2: No, actually the Messiah, Jesus IS predicted in Genesis as being the “seed” in Genesis 3:15; 13:15,17; 15:18; 17:8 NASB; Galatians 3:16 NASB), and as “Shiloh” in Genesis 49:10 NASB).
GW2: False. Jesus is not even mentioned in most books of the Bible, so your claim is refuted. You are engaged in question begging here – assuming that Jesus was the Messiah or a messiah, when this has never been proven. You will not find the term “Jesus of Nazareth” in the book of Genesis. You know this. Stop spreading disinformation
BA3: No, Jesus is mentioned in Genesis in cryptic prophetic terms.
GW3: That’s just wild speculation, and it has not been proven. “Jesus of Nazareth” is not mentioned, and it WOULD BE mentioned if God did exist and if he wrote, dictated, or inspired Genesis.
GW1: If God did exist, there wouldn’t be so much disagreement about him.
BA2: Using your flawed logic, if the 2020 US Presidential election had really occurred, “there wouldn’t be so much disagreement about” it.
GW2: My logic is perfect, and your analogy doesn’t work. If God really did exist, there would not be any disagreement about his existence or about his communications. Why? Because he would regularly communicate in-person to all living persons at the same time! When has this ever occurred? NEVER. Therefore, God does not exist.
BA2: Sorry, but your logic is debunked by the widely divergent claims about the 2020 election!
GW2: I already refuted your objection twice. Forget the election and address what I said about God presenting himself universally. You are engaged in evasion again!
GW2: My logic is perfect, and your analogy doesn’t work. If God really did exist, there would not be any disagreement about his existence or about his communications. Why? Because he would regularly communicate in-person to all living persons at the same time! When has this ever occurred? NEVER. Therefore, God does not exist.
God communicates with every person on earth constantly through his creation (Acts 14:16,17; Romans 1:20; Psalm 19:1-3). In addition, he has provided “All scripture is inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16), “so that people are without excuse” (Romans 1:20 NIV).
GW2: My logic is perfect, and your analogy doesn’t work. If God really did exist, there would not be any disagreement about his existence or about his communications. Why? Because he would regularly communicate in-person to all living persons at the same time! When has this ever occurred? NEVER. Therefore, God does not exist.
BA3: God communicates with every person on earth constantly through his creation (Acts 14:16,17; Romans 1:20; Psalm 19:1-3). In addition, he has provided “All scripture is inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16), “so that people are without excuse” (Romans 1:20 NIV).
GW3: Both those claims are false. They cannot possibly be true. Why? Because God does not exist. We now know this. It has been proven. The books of the Bible were written two or three thousand years ago. The authors were just mistaken about so many things. They didn’t know any better.
GW2: My logic is perfect, and your analogy doesn’t work. If God really did exist, there would not be any disagreement about his existence or about his communications. Why? Because he would regularly communicate in-person to all living persons at the same time! When has this ever occurred? NEVER. Therefore, God does not exist.
BA—You don’t make rules about how God operates. He operates on his own terms, similar to the fact that he alone established “the laws of the universe” (Job 38:33 NLT).
BA3: God communicates with every person on earth constantly through his creation (Acts 14:16,17; Romans 1:20; Psalm 19:1-3). In addition, he has provided “All scripture is inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16), “so that people are without excuse” (Romans 1:20 NIV).
GW3: Both those claims are false. They cannot possibly be true. Why? Because God does not exist. We now know this. It has been proven. The books of the Bible were written two or three thousand years ago. The authors were just mistaken about so many things. They didn’t know any better.
You’re using circular reasoning, and making assertions without proof.
GW2: My logic is perfect, and your analogy doesn’t work. If God really did exist, there would not be any disagreement about his existence or about his communications. Why? Because he would regularly communicate in-person to all living persons at the same time! When has this ever occurred? NEVER. Therefore, God does not exist.
BA4: You don’t make rules about how God operates.
GW4: Here you are begging the question of God’s existence. But if God did exist, I would not make the rules by which he operates, but I have rationally inferred what his rules would be. You haven’t.
BA4: He operates on his own terms, similar to the fact that he alone established “the laws of the universe” (Job 38:33 NLT).
GW4: More question begging by you. When discussing God, you should use different language like “If God did exist, then he would…” Well of course, if God did exist, he would establish the laws of the universe. You and I just differ on what those laws would be. I rationally infer them, but you do not.
BA3: God communicates with every person on earth constantly through his creation (Acts 14:16,17; Romans 1:20; Psalm 19:1-3). In addition, he has provided “All scripture is inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16), “so that people are without excuse” (Romans 1:20 NIV).
GW3: Both those claims are false. They cannot possibly be true. Why? Because God does not exist. We now know this. It has been proven. The books of the Bible were written two or three thousand years ago. The authors were just mistaken about so many things. They didn’t know any better.
BA4: You’re using circular reasoning, and making assertions without proof.
GW4: False. All my reasoning is linear – from definitions to true premises to conclusion. I have presented several proofs to you that God does not exist and you’ve evaded most of them. For one that you did review, you found no errors in it.
While Jesus never explicitly said the words “I am God,” the Bible records numerous instances where he made claims to divinity, effectively claiming to be God. These claims are often seen in his self-references, actions, and interactions with others.
Here are some key examples:
Direct Claims:
“I and the Father are one” (John 10:30):
This statement, made in the context of a discussion about his relationship with God, was understood by his listeners as a claim to equality with God, leading them to attempt to stone him for blasphemy.
“Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58):
This statement, made during a debate with Jewish leaders, uses the divine name “I AM,” which is associated with God in the Old Testament (Exodus 3:14). The Jews understood this as a claim to pre-existence and deity, leading them to pick up stones to kill him.
“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9):
This statement, made to Philip, suggests a oneness with God and an equivalence in nature.
Indirect Claims (Through Actions and Authority):
Forgiving Sins:
Jesus forgave sins, a power traditionally attributed to God alone.
Performing Miracles:
Jesus performed miracles like healing the sick, raising the dead, and calming storms, actions that demonstrated divine power.
Accepting Worship:
Jesus accepted worship from others, which is an act reserved for God.
Claiming Authority Over the Sabbath:
Jesus claimed authority over the Sabbath, a day held sacred in Judaism, demonstrating his claim to be Lord over religious law.
“I am the bread of life,” “I am the light of the world,” etc. (John 6:35, 8:12):
These “I am” statements, where Jesus identifies himself with various life-giving and divine attributes, were likely understood by his audience as claims to divinity.
Claiming to be the Son of Man:
In Daniel 7:13-14, the Son of Man is given authority, glory, and sovereign power, and Jesus frequently referred to himself as the Son of Man.
Reactions of Others:
Jewish leaders: Frequently accused Jesus of blasphemy for claiming to be God.
Thomas:
After the resurrection, Thomas declared, “My Lord and my God” in response to Jesus, and Jesus accepted this declaration.
These are just a few examples of the ways Jesus made claims to divinity. While he didn’t use the exact phrase “I am God,” his words, actions, and the reactions of those around him strongly suggest that he considered himself to be God.
This why trusting in His shed blood (not the blood of just some man, but the One and Only God/man) death for the forgiveness of sins, burial, and resurrection for eternal life is the only way. Because he wasn’t just a man. He is the Creator ( Read all of John 1) of everything, and the Lamb of God, who humbled Himself and did what no normal man could do. Die for the sins of the world, thereby giving mankind a free gift received by faith alone, received by believing/trusting in Jesus’ death for your sins, burial, and resurrection alone for eternal life.
Where is the Gospel in the Bible?
1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Believe/trust in Christ’s Gospel and you will have eternal life. You can’t lose it. Now that’s assurance.
No other Gospel:
Galations 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
DI1: While Jesus never explicitly said the words “I am God,” the Bible records numerous instances where he made claims to divinity, effectively claiming to be God. These claims are often seen in his self-references, actions, and interactions with others.
GW1: He may have made claims to divinity, but they were not claims that he was God. If he had been God, he would have said it directly “I am God” and then he would have proven ti.
DI1: Here are some key examples:
GW1: Thanks for presenting some actual examples.
DI1: Direct Claims: “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30): This statement, made in the context of a discussion about his relationship with God, was understood by his listeners as a claim to equality with God, leading them to attempt to stone him for blasphemy.
GW1: “Equality to God” and “same identity as God” are not the same thing. Even if he were divine, Jesus would not be equal to God. He would be subordinate to God. The verse you cited just means that Jesus was pursuing the same goals as God, being on the same team with him. Team Trinity.
DI1: “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58): This statement, made during a debate with Jewish leaders, uses the divine name “I AM,” which is associated with God in the Old Testament (Exodus 3:14). The Jews understood this as a claim to pre-existence and deity, leading them to pick up stones to kill him.
GW1: The Jews were mistaken. Again, Jesus never said “I am God.” According to most Christians, Jesus was either the Son of God or an intermediary or proxy for God. But neither of these is true, since if God did exist, he would not use messengers, representatives, or intermediaries. He would do his own work.
DI1: “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9): This statement, made to Philip, suggests a oneness with God and an equivalence in nature.
GW1: This statement was probably metaphorical or delusional. Jesus apparently believed he represented God on Earth, and he was mistaken. Who was Jesus? Jesus of Nazareth was a real man who lived for approximately 30 years in ancient Palestine in the early first century CE. He was an itinerant Jewish rabbi who spoke new ideas, especially regarding forgiveness, passive resistance, and apocalypse, which were attractive to many people but also controversial. He was crucified by the Romans and probably died as a result. It was alleged that God brought him back to life, and this belief is one cornerstone of the Christian religion. There is no good evidence that he was divine or had supernatural powers.
DI1: Indirect Claims (Through Actions and Authority):
DI1: Forgiving Sins: Jesus forgave sins, a power traditionally attributed to God alone.
GW1: Haven’t you heard of delegation? If God did exist, he could delegate the authority to forgive sins to Jesus, and Jesus would still not be God.
DI1: Performing Miracles: Jesus performed miracles like healing the sick, raising the dead, and calming storms, actions that demonstrated divine power.
GW1: No. The evidence is just not good enough to conclude that Jesus performed miracles or that anybody has performed miracles. If God did exist, he is the ONLY person who would perform miracles.
DI1: Accepting Worship: Jesus accepted worship from others, which is an act reserved for God.
GW1: What about delegation? Could not God, if he existed, authorize Jesus to accept worship?
DI1: Claiming Authority Over the Sabbath: Jesus claimed authority over the Sabbath, a day held sacred in Judaism, demonstrating his claim to be Lord over religious law.
GW1: If God did exist, there would be no Sabbath. God would not need to rest. Just because Jesus may have claimed this authority doesn’t mean that he was God.
DI1: “I am the bread of life,” “I am the light of the world,” etc. (John 6:35, 8:12):
GW1: Delegation again?
DI1: These “I am” statements, where Jesus identifies himself with various life-giving and divine attributes, were likely understood by his audience as claims to divinity.
GW1: So what? Jesus could be a deity without being God.
DI1: Claiming to be the Son of Man: In Daniel 7:13-14, the Son of Man is given authority, glory, and sovereign power, and Jesus frequently referred to himself as the Son of Man.
GW1: So what? The Son of Man is not God.
DI1: Reactions of Others: Jewish leaders: Frequently accused Jesus of blasphemy for claiming to be God.
GW1: They were just mistaken. Jesus was infringing on their authority so they fabricated false accusations against him.
DI1: Thomas: After the resurrection, Thomas declared, “My Lord and my God” in response to Jesus, and Jesus accepted this declaration.
GW1: I already refuted this idea earlier in this discussion. See above.
DI1: These are just a few examples of the ways Jesus made claims to divinity. While he didn’t use the exact phrase “I am God,” his words, actions, and the reactions of those around him strongly suggest that he considered himself to be God.
GW1: You are just plain wrong! Again, Jesus may have been a deity without being the deity God. If he had been God, he would have bluntly said “I am God.”
DI1: This why trusting in His shed blood (not the blood of just some man, but the One and Only God/man) death for the forgiveness of sins, burial, and resurrection for eternal life is the only way.
GW1: Neither you nor anybody else has proven this. You don’t even have good evidence for it. If God did exist, he would not set up any system of forgiveness or atonement. That would be absurd, irrational, and morally wrong. Instead, God would set up a system of perfect justice.
DI1: Because he wasn’t just a man.
GW1: You are making the error here of “begging the question.” Do you know what that is? Of course, Jesus was “just a man.”
DI1: He is the Creator ( Read all of John 1) of everything, and the Lamb of God, who humbled Himself and did what no normal man could do.
GW1: Absolutely false! If God did exist, he would be the creator of the universe, not Jesus. Duh. But nobody even knows if the universe had a beginning or a creator. There are at least five good reasons to conclude that the universe is probably eternal. I have read the Gospel of John. It is the most ridiculous of the four.
DI1: Die for the sins of the world, thereby giving mankind a free gift received by faith alone, received by believing/trusting in Jesus’ death for your sins, burial, and resurrection alone for eternal life.
GW1: Here you are contradicting yourself. You are implying that salvation is free and has a price. That can’t be!
DI: Where is the Gospel in the Bible?
GW1: That is a very odd question. I’m not quite sure what you mean.
DI1: 1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
GW1: Absolutely false! If God did exist, he would never set up a system of forgiveness through atonement. No way!
DI1: 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
GW1: Absolutely false! Jesus might have been buried, but probably not. His corpse was probably pitched into a gulley with the bodies of other criminals, where they were burned. But there is no good evidence that Jesus came back to life! All you have is unvalidated stories.
DI1: Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
GW1: Already refuted this.
DI1: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
GW1: If God did exist, he would make admission into his inner circle contingent on “works,” on behaviors, not on beliefs. Do you know the record of Ted Bundy? I do. I lived in Tallahassee when he killed 3-4 persons there or nearby. There is a story that Bundy repented and accepted Jesus Christ as his savior, just before he was executed. Suppose this story is true and suppose for a moment that God did exist (he doesn’t). Would God forgive Bundy and exempt him from punishment? Justify your answer.
DI1: Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
GW1: This is complete nonsense. God would not excuse bad behaviors of people if they believed the “right thing”. God would implement perfect justice, if he did exist.
DI1: Believe/trust in Christ’s Gospel and you will have eternal life. You can’t lose it. Now that’s assurance.
GW1: You’ve drunk the kool aid, and it may be too late to save you.
DI1: No other Gospel: Galations 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
GW1: The gospel of Christ is irrational and false. God would not create a system of forgiveness, mercy, grace, and atonement, if he did exist. Instead, he would set up and administer a system of perfect justice. One problem with Christians is that they don’t want to accept accountability for their wrong doing, and so they beg for forgiveness and hope that God would forgive them if they accepted some stupid idea of atonement.
DI1: 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
GW1: If God did exist, he would not use messengers, offspring, intermediaries, emissaries, etc. He would do his own work. He would do the preaching, the miracles, the rewarding, the punishing, the educating, and the reforming.
GW1: For certain, Jesus was not God.
The Bible is 25% prophesy.
I found a list of fulfilled prophesies.
https://www.messianic.org/prophecy/a-comprehensive-list-of-messianic-prophecies
These are things described in the Tanakh (Jewish Bible) and Christian Old Testament. Written and compiled hundreds of years before Christ came. I would go into more detail, but you seem like a lost cause. You won’t except any proof. If fulfilled prophesy won’t open your eyes, you are doomed to Hell forever.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
God is saying creation and what has been made leave mankind without excuse if they don’t believe in Him.
Your good works are as filthy rags in the sight of a Holy perfect God who requires perfection, which we can’t provide. The sinless Lamb of God provided it.
I will pray for you.
DI2: The Bible is 25% prophesy. I found a list of fulfilled prophesies.
GW2: Naturalistic Explanations of Supposedly Accurate Prophesies:
1. Later authors knew earlier prophesies and fabricated stories to match those prophesies.
2. Some persons knew earlier prophesies and acted in such a way to match them. (Self-fulfilling prophesy)
3. Most prophesies are vague, ambiguous, or imprecise. Rarely do they predict who, what, when, where, why, and how.
4. Some prophets may have just been good historians or sociologists who are correct in their predictions at a higher rate than lay persons.
5. Lucky guesses.
6. True positives are cherry-picked and false positives are ignored.
7. Metaphorical, figurative, or other non-literal writing is mistakenly interpreted as a prediction of the future.
DI2: I would go into more detail, but you seem like a lost cause.
GW2: You are probably a lost cause. You seem so indoctrinated and close minded.
DI2: You won’t except any proof.
GW2: Yes I will and I have, but you don’t have any proof. I have many proofs, however, that God does not exist.
DI2: If fulfilled prophesy won’t open your eyes, you are doomed to Hell forever.
GW2: Nonsense! If God did exist, he would not set up a Hell or a Heaven. To do so would be immoral.
DI2: God is saying creation and what has been made leave mankind without excuse if they don’t believe in Him.
GW2: There is no good evidence that God has ever spoken to any human beings. How would he communicate with us, if he did exist? Describe it. Also, neither you nor anyone else knows that the universe had a beginning, a creation, or a creator. You are begging the question and just speculating. I don’t believe in God. In fact, I know and have proven that he doesn’t even exist.
DI2: I will pray for you.
GW2: Go ahead, but God does not exist, and so your prayers will go unfulfilled.
GW2: Your claim that Jesus was God has been soundly refuted.
We’re glad you visited this website, and you’re welcome to continue visiting.
The scriptures disagree with many of your assertions, so we’ve listed many of them here, along with what the scriptures really teach.
DI—While Jesus never explicitly said the words “I am God,” the Bible records numerous instances where he made claims to divinity, effectively claiming to be God. These claims are often seen in his self-references, actions, and interactions with others.
Here are some key examples:
Direct Claims:
“I and the Father are one” (John 10:30):
This statement, made in the context of a discussion about his relationship with God, was understood by his listeners as a claim to equality with God, leading them to attempt to stone him for blasphemy.
BA—John 10:30 – Are the Father and Jesus “one” within a Trinity? Or, are they “one” in unity, the same as the disciples are in John 17:11,20-23? Since the disciples are not “God”, yet are to be “one” with God and Jesus and with one another, obviously they are “one” in unity. The Greek word “hen” is in the neuter gender, and is translated as “one”, but this is not the numeral “one”. To be the numeral “one” it would have to be in the masculine gender. Anyway, at John 8:17,18, Jesus said that he and his Father are “two”, numerically speaking. Is Jesus saying that he is “God Almighty”, or “God’s Son” in 10:36? Jesus, in response to the false charge by his opposers that he was claiming “to be God” (John 10:33 NIV), boldly stated they “I said, ‘I am God’s Son'” (John 10:36 NIV). Jesus clearly disavowed the false claim that he was claiming “to be God”.
DI—“Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58):
This statement, made during a debate with Jewish leaders, uses the divine name “I AM,” which is associated with God in the Old Testament (Exodus 3:14). The Jews understood this as a claim to pre-existence and deity, leading them to pick up stones to kill him.
BA—John 8:58 — Is the real issue discussed in this context whether Jesus is Almighty God? Or, is the real issue being discussed here about how old Jesus is? “‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ they said to him, ‘and you have seen Abraham?'” (John 8:57 NIV).
DI—“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9):
This statement, made to Philip, suggests a oneness with God and an equivalence in nature.
BA—John 14:9 –- “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (NIV). Is this the same as saying that he is God Almighty?.
DI—Indirect Claims (Through Actions and Authority):
Forgiving Sins:
Jesus forgave sins, a power traditionally attributed to God alone.
BA— Matthew 9:6 says Jesus has authority to forgive sins. “The son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (NAB). The ‘authority to forgive sins’ had been bestowed on Jesus as God’s “representative” (John 5:43 Williams New Testament). Obviously, God doesn’t need anyone’s authority to do anything> Jesus does. Also, “the Son of Man” cannot be God, because “God is not a man, nor the son of man” (Numbers 23:19 KJV).
In fact, Matthew 9:8 says, “The crowd . . . praised God for sending a man with such great authority” (NLT 2013 edition). Jesus said, “God sent me” (John 8:42 NIV), so he could not be God.
DI—Performing Miracles:
Jesus performed miracles like healing the sick, raising the dead, and calming storms, actions that demonstrated divine power.
BA—If performing miracles makes one God, then the miracles performed by Moses, Elijah and Elisha, Peter, John and Paul, would make them God also.
DI—Accepting Worship:
Jesus accepted worship from others, which is an act reserved for God.
BA—There are some verses that are often translated as though people actually “worshipped” Jesus. However, accurate translations do not reflect that idea. Let’s look at these scriptures with accurate translations:
“On entering the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother; and they knelt down and paid him homage”—Matthew 2:11 NRSV
“Those who were in the boat did him homage, saying, ‘Truly, you are the Son of God'”—Matthew 14:33 NAB
“And the men in the boat fell at his feet, exclaiming, ‘You must be the Son of God'”—-Matthew 14:33 REB
“Suddenly Jesus was there in their path, greeting them. They came up and clasped his feet, kneeling before him”—-Matthew 28:9 REB
“When they saw him they fell down before, though some hesitated”—-Matthew 28:17 NJB
“They did him homage and then returned to Jerusalem with great joy”—Luke 24:52 NAB
“‘Lord, I believe,’ he said, and fell on his knees before him”—-John 9:38 REB
“Fell on his knees before him”—John 9:38 REB
“The man bowed in front of Jesus and said, ‘I believe, Lord'”—John 9:38 GWT
“Again, when he presents his firstborn to the world, he says, ‘Let all God’s angels pay him homage'”—Hebrews 1:6 REB
When we look at the historical accounts of the early church, Acts through Revelation, do we find any valid instances of anyone worshipping Jesus? No, we don’t! Here are some examples of what we do find:
“A worshipper of God”—Acts 16:14 NASB; 18:7 NASB
“Worship God”—1 Corinthians 14:25; Revelation 19:10; 22:9
“Worshipped God”—Revelation 7:11 NASB; 11:16 NASB; 19:4 NASB
A survey of the entire New Testament finds evidence of God alone being worshipped, and no evidence of Jesus or the holy Spirit being worshipped. May we be guided by Jesus’ words above therefore!
DI—Claiming Authority Over the Sabbath:
Jesus claimed authority over the Sabbath, a day held sacred in Judaism, demonstrating his claim to be Lord over religious law.
BA—But he didn’t say he was God. He called himself, “the Son of Man”.
Mark 2:28 – Jesus refers to himself as “the Son of Man”. “The Son of Man” cannot be God, because “God is not a man” (Numbers 23:19).
DI—“I am the bread of life,” “I am the light of the world,” etc. (John 6:35, 8:12):
BA—John 8:12 – “Jesus spoke to them again, saying, ‘I am the light of the world'” (NAB). This declaration by Jesus is reminiscent of the prophecy given about him over 700 years beforehand, “So now says Yahweh, who formed Me from the womb to be his Servant . . . ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant . . . I shall also give you as a light of the nations” (Isaiah 49:6 LSB). Jesus, as foretold, is Yahweh God’s “servant” (Acts 3:13), who also has made him to be “the light of the world.” Therefore, Jesus, God’s servant, cannot be God.
DI—These “I am” statements, where Jesus identifies himself with various life-giving and divine attributes, were likely understood by his audience as claims to divinity.
BA—John 16:29,30 – “Jesus disciples said, ‘. . . This makes us believe that you came from God'” (NIV) – His disciples realized that God is Jesus’ source. Saying that Jesus “came from God”, is evidence they did not believe that Jesus was himself God.
DI—Claiming to be the Son of Man:
In Daniel 7:13-14, the Son of Man is given authority, glory, and sovereign power, and Jesus frequently referred to himself as the Son of Man.
BA—“The Son of Man” cannot be God, because “God is not a man” (Numbers 23:19).
DI—Reactions of Others:
Jewish leaders: Frequently accused Jesus of blasphemy for claiming to be God.
BA—Jesus refuted that by, “I said,’I am God’s Son'” (John 10:36 NIV).
DI—Thomas:
After the resurrection, Thomas declared, “My Lord and my God” in response to Jesus, and Jesus accepted this declaration.
BA—John 20:28 – “Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God'” (NIV). Is Thomas asserting that Jesus is Almighty God? No, because “No one has seen God at any time” (John 1:18 NASB). Thomas may be saying that Jesus is “the only begotten God” (John 1:18 NASB), whom many people have seen, “the Word”, who “became flesh” (John 1:14 NIV). If so, he is calling Jesus God in the sense of “Mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6). Jesus’ apostle John said that he wrote his gospel to prove that Jesus is “the Messiah, the Son of God” (John 20:31 NIV), not “God the Son,” a Trinitarian term not found in the Bible.
Yahweh’s representatives have been called “God”. Jacob was told he had “struggled with God”, when he had actually “struggled with the angel” (Hosea 12:3,4 NIV). Yahweh made Moses “like God to Pharaoh” (Exodus 7:1 NIV). The Israelite king was called “God” (Psalm 45:6 NIV). “The king, in courtly language is called ‘god,’ i.e., more than human, representing God to the people” (NAB note on Psalm 45:6). Israelite rulers and judges were called “Gods” (Psalm 82:6 NAB). “Jesus uses the verse to prove that those to whom the word of God is addressed can fittingly be called gods” (NAB note on Psalm 82:6). On the other hand, Thomas may have been exclaiming “My Lord and my God” to acknowledge the resurrected Jesus as the “one Lord,” and acknowledging his Father as the “one God” who resurrected Jesus (1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 4:6; Acts 2:32). If Thomas had called Jesus “God” in the sense of “Almighty,” that would contradict Jesus’ own expression earlier that same day when he called his Father “my God” (John 20:17).
DI—These are just a few examples of the ways Jesus made claims to divinity. While he didn’t use the exact phrase “I am God,” his words, actions, and the reactions of those around him strongly suggest that he considered himself to be God.
BA—His disciples thought no such thing:
Matthew 16:13-17 – “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” (NAB). – Jesus asked, Who am I? – “The Messiah, the Son of the living God”, Peter replied. ‘My Father in heaven revealed this to you’ – in saying this, Jesus commended Peter’s answer. If Jesus was God, or “God the Son,” this would have been the time for Peter and Jesus to state it. But, no, Jesus was confessed to be “the Messiah, the Son of the living God,” and Jesus approved this answer.
Mark 1:1 – “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God” (ESV). Mark opens his gospel by briefly mentioning basically the theme of his gospel, and what it will prove — ‘that Jesus Christ is the Son of God’.
John 20:31 – “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God” (NIV). John states the reason why the Gospel of John was written. John was not written to prove Jesus is the mythological “God the Son,” of the Trinity dogma, but, rather to prove “that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God”.
DI—This why trusting in His shed blood (not the blood of just some man, but the One and Only God/man) death for the forgiveness of sins, burial, and resurrection for eternal life is the only way. Because he wasn’t just a man.
BA—Matthew 16:13-17 – “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” (NAB). – Jesus asked, Who am I? – “The Messiah, the Son of the living God”, Peter replied. ‘My Father in heaven revealed this to you’ – in saying this, Jesus commended Peter’s answer. If Jesus was God, or “God the Son,” this would have been the time for Peter and Jesus to state it. But, no, Jesus was confessed to be “the Messiah, the Son of the living God,” and Jesus approved this answer.
DI—He is the Creator ( Read all of John 1) of everything, and the Lamb of God, who humbled Himself and did what no normal man could do.
BA—On earth Jesus was “fully human in every way” (Hebrews 2:17 NIV). “God is not a man” (Numbers 23:19), so Jesus couldn’t be God.
DI—Die for the sins of the world, thereby giving mankind a free gift received by faith alone, received by believing/trusting in Jesus’ death for your sins, burial, and resurrection alone for eternal life.
BA—“Christ died for our sins” ( Cor 15:3), but “Yahweh . . . God . . . never dies” (Habakkuk 1:12 NJB). Jesus “was dead” (Revelation 1:18), so he can’t be God.
DI—Believe/trust in Christ’s Gospel and you will have eternal life. You can’t lose it. Now that’s assurance.
BA—“I mention it that you may be saved” (John 5:34 NIV). Salvation is not guaranteed to everyone, or anyone. See Matthew 7:21-23.
“For in this hope we were saved” (Romans 8:24 NIV). “It is by grace you have been saved.” (Ephesians 2:5). As these verses show, in one sense, salvation is past tense.”I mention it that you may be saved.”
“To us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18 NIV). “We are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved.” (2 Corinthians 2:15 NIV). “Being saved” in these two verses is in the present tense. Salvation began at baptism and this process continues during a Christian’s life, as long as he/she is faithful. So in another sense, salvation is an ongoing process for Christians.
“The one who stands firm to the end will be saved.” (Matthew 10:22). To be finally saved, we must be faithful to the end, and not give up. According to the Scriptures, “Once saved, always saved” is unscriptural. This may be surprising for some, but it is true.
This can be clearly seen from the Apostle Paul’s candid discussion of his “goal” in Philippians 3:11-14:
“And so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.”
These verses make it obvious that Paul did not consider himself “once saved, always saved.” Other verses he wrote will also emphasize this point.
“For in this hope you were saved.” (Romans 8:24). So Paul is saying salvation is past tense. “But…” But what? “Hope that is seen is not hope at all.” So the salvation Roman Christians had received was not finalized, otherwise it would “be seen,” which “is no hope at all.” This can be seen in the final part of verse 24: “Who hopes for what they already have?”
“But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.” (Romans 8:25). Paul is saying “the redemption of our bodies” referred to in verse 23 is not yet attained. The “salvation” referred to in verse 24 is not finalized. These Christians are not “once saved, always saved.”
“I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Corinthians 9:27 ESV). Paul here mentions the fact that he could potentially become disqualified in the race for life if he did not control himself. Obviously, Paul did not consider himself to be “Once Saved, Always Saved.”
Jude gives us another excellent example of the unscriptural thinking of the eternal security theology. Jude wanted to write about:
“The salvation we share….” (vs. 3 CSB) But he decided it was more urgent to “remind you… the Lord first saved a people out of Egypt.” (vs. 5 CSB) So they had salvation in a sense, in some ways like “the salvation we share” that Jude wanted to write about. “And later destroyed those who did not believe.” (vs. 5 CSB) Jude is warning Christians with this example that salvation is contingent on continuing in the godly course. Thus, salvation is not eternal security.
“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:2 NIV). Notice the phrase, “if you hold firmly to the word,” indicating no one’s salvation is guaranteed. Each Christian must continue to obey to the end.
The book of Hebrews gives several warnings about the danger of falling away, or losing salvation. For example:
“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. ” (Hebrews 6:4-6).
This clearly points out the danger of those “who have fallen away.” A person could become so hardened in sin that “it is impossible… to be brought back to repentance.” Here, it is speaking about those Christians “who have shared in the Holy Spirit,” and “who have tasted the heavenly gift.” God doesn’t give his Holy Spirit to unsaved people, as Acts 5:32 indicates:
“We are witnesses of these things, as is the holy Spirit that God has given to those who obey him” (NAB).
This verse proves that only obedient, saved people have God’s holy Spirit. Hebrews 6:4-6 proves that these saved people who “have shared in the Holy Spirit” can fall away; that is, lose their salvation.
The warnings given in Hebrews 6:4-6 were given “so that what you hope for may be fully realized.” (Hebrews 6:11). So Christians hope for ultimate salvation, but are warned of the “need to persevere” (Hebrews 10:36) so as to “receive what he has promised.”
Further warnings to persevere in faith without backsliding are given in Hebrews 10:19-31. This is written to Christians who have been “having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.” (Hebrews 10:22). These Christians were obviously saved. But notice the warning given to them in verse 26: “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.”
God judges some people as rejecting Christ’s sacrifice after they “deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth.” They were saved, but “willfully” (NASB) sin and don’t repent. They were not “once saved, always saved.” So, as we can see from our examination of the Bible, the doctrine of eternal security is unscriptural.
We are Bible believing Christians at this site, but Gary Whittenberger is not.
We would like you to know that Gary Whittenberger is an atheist peddling atheistic propaganda, and we do not agree with most of his assertions.
His assertions in general do not reflect the views of this website.
“We are Bible believing Christians at this site”
I can’t tell it. You spent your whole post arguing against the Bible.
Do you not know John 3:16?
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
How about John 3:14-18?
Did Jesus say if we believe in Him we have temporary life? No. He said everlasting life. If that’s not once saved always saved, I don’t know what is. Do you depend on your good works to get you to heaven?
And you seem to have a real problem with the Trinity. Maybe this will help you:
https://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html
Then we have prophesy. Here’s a link to much fulfilled prophesy:
https://www.messianic.org/prophecy/a-comprehensive-list-of-messianic-prophecies
What are you trusting in to get to heaven? The sinner or the Savior?
DI—“We are Bible believing Christians at this site”
I can’t tell it. You spent your whole post arguing against the Bible.
Do you not know John 3:16?
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
How about John 3:14-18?
Did Jesus say if we believe in Him we have temporary life? No. He said everlasting life. If that’s not once saved always saved, I don’t know what is. Do you depend on your good works to get you to heaven?
BA—You have completely misunderstood our beliefs.
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16 NIV)
Eternal life is exactly what Jesus promised to those who are faithful, not just for those people who were living in the Jerusalem area back then, but for all people living at all times through history.
“No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” (John 3:13-15 NIV)
These verses prove it is all about God’s love for humankind, manifested in Jesus being put on the cross, or execution stake, and it also has to do with our response to it, resulting in our ETERNAL life or death!
“For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” (John 3:17 NIV)
“This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 3:6 NIV)
These verses show that Jesus’ death is not just for Jews living back then before 70 CE, but is for all time, and is for the salvation of the entire world of mankind, for whoever will believe, and ‘do the will of God’ (Matthew 7:21).
“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” (1 Corinthians 15:2-4 NIV)
The Bible indicates tha ‘believing in Jesus Christ saves us from the wrath of of God’:
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains upon him” (John 3:36 NIV). Believing in God’s Son is contrasted with rejecting God’s Son. Of course, the ‘belief’ mentioned here is not just mental acknowledgment, but an active doing. Jesus made this very clear. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21 NIV). “If you know these things, blessed you are if you do them” (John 13:17 NRSV). “If you love me, keep my commands” (John 14:15 NIV). So, true Biblical belief in Jesus equates to doing the will of his Father, and keeping his and Jesus’ commands.
“Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel.” (2 Timothy 2:8 NIV)
The scriptures show the gospel is about Jesus’ death and resurrection, guaranteeing that faithful Christians will be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:12-19; Acts 17:31).
“Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.” (Revelation 14:6 NIV)
Revelation was likely written about 25 years after Jerusalem’s destruction, “to show his servants what must soon take place” (Revelation 1:1 NIV), in the future. “The eternal gospel” was still to be preached for many centuries beyond Jerusalem’s destruction! Couple of years later, in the late 90’s, the apostle John, was inspired to write:
“God . . . sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins . . . the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world” (1 John 4:10,14 NIV). The gospel is very much about Jesus being the Savior of mankind to rescue humans from eternal death resulting from sin.
DI–And you seem to have a real problem with the Trinity. Maybe this will help you
BA—If the Trinity was in the Bible, we would believe.
However, there is not even a single verse in the Bible that elucidates the Trinity.
DI—Then we have prophesy. Here’s a link to much fulfilled prophesy:
BA—Yes, about 25% of the Bible is prophecy, and we believe every one of them!!!
Surprise. Surprise. Two Christians, DI and BA, disagree. Who would have thunk it? I would. If God did exist, there would be no disagreements about him and there would be no atheists. But there are disagreements about him and there are millions of atheists, like me. Therefore, God does not exist.
Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
No one is going to earn their way into Heaven;
What has been earned is to die and go to Hell.
This is why Jesus came to earth.
Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
You quoted Matthew 7:21 but NEVER LOOKED OR RESEARCHED TO FIND THE WILL OF THE FATHER! YOU ASSUME WORKS!
Matthew 7:21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.”
WELL….What is the will of the Father in heaven?
John 6: 40 “And THIS is the will of Him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
What is “the gospel”?
1 Corinthians 15:3 “For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
So now you know the work and will and gospel of God. Repent (change your mind from trusting in your good works to save you) and believe/trust on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross for eternal life. Be saved.
Romans 4:4 “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Must a Christian work, or make effort, so as not to lose salvation? Many people who believe in the doctrine of “eternal security” don’t think so. They say all you have to do is believe in Jesus, and “once saved, always saved”, and that your Christian works are completely irrelevant to your salvation. But what does the Bible say? Let’s find out.
Must a Christian put forth any effort so as not to lose salvation?
“Work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen. Do these things, and you will never fall away.” (2 Pt 1:10 NLT) The Bible does not say we’re saved by works. However, a “called and chosen” Christian can “fall away” if he does not “work hard.”
“‘What must we do, to be doing the works of God?’ Jesus answered them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.'” (John 6:28-29 ESV) Believing in Jesus is a work that Christians must do.
“For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.” (Romans 13:11 ESV) Christian “salvation is nearer,” but not yet achieved. This is a far cry from the “once saved, always saved” dogma.
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12 ESV) While not being saved by works, a Christian is encouraged to make every effort toward salvation.
“‘Lord are only a few people going to be saved?’ He said to them, ‘Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter but will not be able to.'” (Luke 13:23-24 NIV) Jesus shows that tremendous effort is needed to finally be granted salvation.
“I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.” (1 Corinthians 9:27 NIV) Paul, obviously a “saved” Christian, was concerned that after all the preaching he had done to and for others, he himself might give in to sin and become “disqualified for the prize” of eternal life or salvation. In other words, he did not want to lose his salvation.
While it is true that there is nothing that we can do to “earn” salvation, that does not mean that our salvation, as Christians, doesn’t depend on our doing Christian work. Jesus said, “‘Don’t work for the food that spoils. Instead, work for the food that endures into eternal life'” (John 6:27 GWT). “‘Then what must we do,’ they asked him, ‘if our work is to be the work of God?’ Jesus replied, ‘This is the work that God requires: to believe in the one whom he has sent'” (John 6:28,29 REB). Believing in Jesus is the “work that God requires”. That doesn’t mean just mental acceptance. It means, not only mental belief, but actually putting into practice everything that Jesus taught, which is “work”. This does not mean that we “work our way to salvation”, however, “work” is actually involved in the process of salvation.
“I had intended to write to you about the salvation we share. But something has come up. It demands that I write and encourage you to continue your fight for the Christian faith that was entrusted to God’s holy people once for all time” (Jude 3 GWT). If Christians could not lose their salvation, why would they need to fight for the faith? ‘Fighting for the faith’ is work.
“I want to remind you… the Lord first saved a people out of Egypt and later destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 5 CSB) They were “saved,” but later their disbelief and disobedience led to their being “destroyed.” Jude warns Christians of the very same danger. Slipping from belief to unbelief means that a Christian is no longer doing God’s “work” of believing (John 6:27-29). So as we can see from the Bible, believing in Jesus is a requirement for salvation, which involves our being obedient to him, or else we risk losing that salvation. (John 14:23-24)
This is well-illustrated in some of Jesus’ parables, such as:
THE WORKERS IN THE VINEYARD (Matthew 20:1-16)—-All the workers ‘worked’ for a denarius, some for the entire 12 hour day and some only for one hour. But the point is, they all ‘worked’. This is representative of doing Christian work, and the “denarius” represents the pay of eternal life. No, it is not earned, or deserved. It is a “gift” (Romans 6:23).
Matthew 7:22 (you know, the verse after Matthew 7:21) is talking about people who are telling Jesus their good works. They have not believed in Him and His death for their sins, burial, and resurrection alone for eternal life. They are trusting in themselves, the sinner, and not the Savior. SO MANY PEOPLE GET THIS VERSE WRONG. THEY NEVER, EVER DO ANY RESEARCH TO FIND THE WILL OF THE FATHER!
And what is sad, is the people who use this verse all the time, it’s them that it’s talking about.
“Faith without works is dead”—James 2:26
So how is a Christian saved? Is it by doing good deeds and refraining from doing bad things? Is salvation attained by Christian works? Or is it by faith alone? If by faith alone, then where do Christian works fit in? Let’s see what the Bible has to say on this matter.
Do Christian works produce salvation, or does salvation produce Christian works?
“Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done.” (Ephesians 2:9 NLT) The same verse in the NIV says that salvation is “not by works.” So obviously, the Bible says our own works cannot save us. It is not saying that as Christians, we should not be doing good works. Rather, it is saying that salvation is not attained simply by doing good works.
“To cleanse for himself a people for his own possession, eager to do good works.” (Titus 2:14 CSB) We Christians should be eager to do good works.
“That slave whose master finds him working when he comes will be rewarded.” (Matthew 24:46 CSB) Christians are expected by God and Christ to work as Christians. See Matthew 25:14-46; Matthew 24:45-51; Luke 12:42-48; Luke 19:11-27.
“To equip his people for works of service.” (Ephesians 4:12 NIV) So God’s people, Christians, are saved and continuously equipped for “works of service.” So rather than being the mechanism by which Christians are saved, good works are actually a product of salvation. A Christian who is truly saved will be equipped by God for good works and will therefore be fully able to accomplish these works.
“You have a reputation for being alive, but you are dead.” (Revelation 3:1 CSB) A Christian who is not working for God and Christ is spiritually dead.
“For I have not found your works complete before my God.” (Revelation 3:2 CSB) While no amount of Christian works can save the Christian, works of Christian service are vital for a Christian so that Jesus “will never erase his name from the book of life.” (Revelation 3:5 CSB)
“For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” (Ephesians 2:10 NIV) Saved Christians are “God’s handiwork.” God through Christ has done a special work being “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. (Ephesians 4:24 NIV) The point of being “saved” (vs. 8) starts the work of being “created in Christ Jesus to do good works.” This is not “working one’s way to salvation,” but working for God and Christ because one is saved. Anyone who is not saved is “dead” spiritually in “transgressions and sins.” (Ephesians 2:1 NIV) But now, God has “made us alive with Christ” (Ephesians 2:5 NIV), to do good works.
James 2:14-26 discusses the relationship of faith and works in some detail, even giving Biblical examples, such as Rahab and Abraham. The main point is “that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24 CSB) He says that “I will show you my faith from my works.” (James 2:18 CSB) Obviously, proper Christian works are vital, not optional. While no Christian can earn their salvation through good works, James’ conclusion is that “faith without works is dead.” (James 2:26 CSB)
But let’s be clear: Just as “Abraham was” not “justified by works” (Romans 4:2 CSB), neither are we. Let no one mistake that.
Just as Romans 4 uses Abraham as an example of how no one is justified or declared righteous by works, but by faith, James 2 uses Abraham to prove that genuine faith is accompanied by works.
“You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?” (James 2:20 NIV) Some who don’t like what James says here about works claim this contradicts what Paul says about faith alone in Romans. Martin Luther, for example, was one of them. He, and others today, have dismissed James as being uninspired. Like other parts of the Bible that may appear to be contradictory but are actually complementary, James and Romans complement each other. How so?
“You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.” (James 2:22 NIV) Without actions, faith is incomplete. Biblical faith and works go together.
“And the scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'” (James 2:23 NIV) Abraham believed God, “so much so that he was willing to sacrifice his one and only son.” (Hebrews 11:17 NIV) This is how Abraham’s faith and works worked together. One was not complete without the other.
The misunderstanding that many have based on scriptures such as Romans 4 is that they don’t look at the scriptures in context. When the scriptures are looked at isolated from their context, misunderstandings occur. What is the context of Romans 4?
Notice how many times in Romans 4 circumcision is mentioned. The Jews thought that outward actions proved their righteousness. They also were fanatical about keeping the Mosaic Law, and all their man-made rules pertaining to it. By doing all this, they thought their righteousness was guaranteed. This is similar to pagans thinking they could manipulate their gods through various actions. Notice how Romans 4:14 refers to “those who depend on the law” (NIV). Romans 4 therefore argues against dependence on “works of the law” (Galatians 2:16 NIV), like Galatians does.
Getting the context of Romans and Galatians helps us to see clearly there is no contradiction between these two Bible books and the book of James. Paul tells us that Christians are saved through faith and not works, and James tells us that Christians who are saved through their faith will produce good works as a result of their faith. These ideas are not contradictory – they are complimentary. Christian works are an outward sign of faith, but they are not the means of salvation. And this faith in Jesus Christ and the work he accomplished is the only means of salvation.
I think you may be confusing two different persons. One is the owner and manger of Bible Authenticity. He is a Christian, but you and he may still have different views on some of these issues. The other is me — Gary Whittenberger. I am a progressive secular humanist, gnostic atheist, and the loyal skeptic.
No, one person doesn’t believe in the prophesies that say the Messiah is God, and the other doesn’t believe in God at all.
There are hundreds of OT prophecies of Jesus, but none about him being “God”.
Let’s look at some quotes of Biblical prophecies about Jesus that are found in the Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls, with their scroll designations, their dates of composition, and their New Testament fulfillments, shown. All of the quotes below are from the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS), and not the Masoretic Text, on which most translations are based.
Born in Bethlehem:
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, being small among the thousands of Judah, will not come out of you to me that is to be ruler in Israel, whose goings out are from old, from ancient times”—Micah 5:2 (4Q81, 200-100 BCE)—[Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4,10,11]
Born of a virgin:
“Therefore Yahweh himself will give you a sign, Behold, the virgin will conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Jesus”—Isaiah 7:14 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—[Matthew 1:18-23; Luke 1:30-35]
Descended from the family of David, the son of Jesse, who will give eternal life to Jesse:
“His government will expand, and peace will be endless for the throne of David and his kingdom, to establish it and to sustain it with justice and righteousness from now on and forever. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will do this”—Isaiah 9:7
“A shoot will come forth from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots will be fruit”—Isaiah 11:1
“On that day, the root of Jesse, which stands as signal for the peoples–the nations will seek him, and his dwelling will be honored”—Isaiah 11:10
These three scriptures above are from 1QISa, about 125 BCE. The fulfillments are noted in: Matthew 1:1,6-16; 9:27; 15:22; 20:30,31; 21:9,15; 22:42; Mark 10:47,48; Luke 1:32; 2:4; 3:23-32; 18:38,39; Acts 2:29-31; 13:22,23; Romans 1:3; 15:8,12
Children and infants killed:
“Thus says Yahweh: A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and bitter weeping: Rachel weeping for her children, refusing to be comforted for her children–because they are no more”—Jeremiah 31:15 (4QJer, about 200 BCE)—[Matthew 2:16-18]
Jesus’ anointing with the holy Spirit as Messiah:
“Until an anointed one, a Messiah”—Daniel 9:25 (11Q13, circa 100 BCE)—[Luke 3:1,2, 21-23]
Hearts hardened:
“So he said, ‘Go and say to this people: Hear indeed, but do not understand; see indeed, but do not comprehend. Make the heart of this people fat, dull their ears, and blind their eyes; so they do not see with their eyes, or hear with their ears, with their heart understand, or turn back and be healed”—Isaiah 6:9,10 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—[Matthew 13:14,15; Mark 4:11,12; Luke 8:10; John 12:39,40; Acts 28:25-27]
Insulted and spit on:
“My face I did not turn aside from insults and spitting”—Isaiah 50:6 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—[Matthew 26:68; 27:26-30,39-44; Mark 14:65; 15:17,18,29-32; Luke 22:63-65; 23:11,39; John 19:2,3]
Rejected by his people:
“Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed? For he grew up before him like a tender plant, like a root out of a dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and had no attractiveness that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by others, and a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering; and like one from whom people hide their faces and we despised him, and we did not value him”—Isaiah 53:1-3 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—[Matthew 27:1,2; John 1:10,11; 12:37,38]
Hailed as king and the one coming in the Lord Yahweh’s name:
“Therefore Yahweh himself will give you a sign, Behold, the virgin will conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel”—Isaiah 7:14 (1QISa, about 125 CE)—[Matthew 21:1-9; Mark 11:7-11; Luke 19:28-38; John 12:12-15]
Disfigured by cruelty:
“Just as many were astonished at you–so he was marred ins appearance, more than any human, and his form beyond that of the sons of humans”—Isaiah 52:14 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—[Matthew 27:27-30]
Executed as a criminal:
“They intended to bury him with criminals”—Isaiah 53:9 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—Luke 23:32,33
“I will allot him a portion with the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong; because he poured out his life to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sins of many; and made intercession for their transgressions”—Isaiah 53:12 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—[Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27, 28; Luke 22:17; 23:32,33]
Buried with the rich:
“Then they made his grave with the wicked, and with rich people his tomb–although he had done no violence, nor was any deceit found in his mouth”—Isaiah 53:9 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—[Matthew 27:57-60]
None of his bones were broken:
“He protects all his bones; not one of them is broken”—Psalm 34:20 (4Q83, about 200-100 BCE)—[John 19:32-36]
Hands and feet pierced:
“For dogs are all around me; a gang of evildoers encircles me. They have pierced my hands and my feet”—Psalm 22:16 (4Q88, about 100-25 BCE)—[Matthew 27:35; John 19:25]
Silent before his oppressors:
“He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; like a lamp that is led to the slaughter, as a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth”—Isaiah 53:7 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—[Mark 14:60,61; Acts 8:27-35]
Deprived of justice
“From detention and judgment he was taken away—and who can even think about descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living”—Isaiah 53:8 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—-[Acts 8:27-35]
Piercing of his body:
“I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitant of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look to me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn”—Zechariah 12:10 (4Q80, 75-25 BCE)—[John 19:34,37; Revelation 1:7]
Hated without cause:
“Many more than the hairs of my head are those who hate me without cause; many are those who would annihilate me, who are wrongfully my enemies. That which I did not steal, shall I now restore?”—Psalm 69:4 (4Q83, about 200-100 BCE)— [John 15:24,25]
Cursed on the tree:
“His body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall indeed bury him that same day. For anyone who is hanged is under God’s curse, you must not defile your land which Yahweh your God is giving you as an inheritance”—Deuteronomy 21:23 (4Q36, 100-50 BCE)—[Galatians 3:13]
Friends stand at a distance:
“I have become a plague before my friends and companions, and my neighbors stay far away”—Psalm 38:11 (4Q83, about 200-100 BCE)—[Matthew 27:55; Mark 15:40; Luke 23:49]
Died for our sins
“He will bear their iniquities”—Isaiah 53:11 1QISa, about 125 BCE)
“He was wounded for our transgressions, and he was he was crushed for our iniquities, and the punishment that made us whole was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed” —Isaiah 53:5 (1QISa about 125 BCE)
“He was stricken for the transgressions of my people”—Isaiah 53:8 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)
Fulfillment of all three scriptures recorded in Romans 3:25; 1 Corinthians 15:3; Hebrews 9:28
In the tomb for parts of three days, and resurrected on the third day:
“So they picked up Jonah, and threw him into the sea, and the sea ceased from its raging. And Yahweh prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah, and he was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights”—Jonah 1:15,17 (4Q76, 150-125 BCE)
“And Yahweh spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah out upon the dry land”—Jonah 2:10 (4Q82, 30-1 BCE)
Jesus’ similar predictions and the fulfillments of both of these two prophecies are noted in Matthew 12:39,40; 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:64; 28:1-7; Acts 10:40; 1 Corinthians 15:3-8
Conclusion
Reasonable people agree that Jesus’ birth, rejection, mistreatment, execution, and death were all beyond his control. Objective evidence of Jesus in the Dead Sea Scrolls proves that prophecies of such were written prior to Jesus even being born on earth. These facts are just more of the mountainous evidence that the Bible is the authentic “word of God” (1 Thessalonians 2:13)!
All scriptural quotes in this article are from the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS), unless otherwise noted.
Don’t pay any attention to Gary Whittenberger’s atheistic diatribes.
He’s on thin ice on this forum, and fortunate we even let him post anything at all.
This is a reply to Donald.
DI3: Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
GW3: False! There is no salvation. Death is certain for all human beings. And can’t erase the past. If God did exist (he doesn’t), he would reform, not save.
DI3: No one is going to earn their way into Heaven; What has been earned is to die and go to Hell.
GW3: False again! If God did exist (he doesn’t), he would never set up Heaven or Hell.
DI3: This is why Jesus came to earth.
GW3: Nope. Jesus didn’t “come to Earth.” He resided on Earth, in ancient Palestine, after being born to two human parents. Duh.
DI3: Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
GW3: Unfounded opinion.
DI3: John 6:28 Then said they unto him, “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
GW3: See here. This proves that Jesus and God are not the same person.
DI3: You quoted Matthew 7:21 but NEVER LOOKED OR RESEARCHED TO FIND THE WILL OF THE FATHER! YOU ASSUME WORKS!
GW3: I have no trust in the Bible. It is not the word of God. If God did exist, works would count more than beliefs. You evaded my example of Ted Bundy. That figures.
DI3: Matthew 7:21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.”
GW3: Jesus and God = two separate persons. You see?
DI3: WELL….What is the will of the Father in heaven?
GW3: Nonexistent persons have no will. And God does not exist. We now know and have proven this.
DI3: John 6: 40 “And THIS is the will of Him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
GW3: Hundreds of people saw Jesus and they all died. So, the verse is false.
DI3: What is “the gospel”? 1 Corinthians 15:3 “For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
GW3: Nope. The idea of atonement is one of the most ridiculous ideas in history. One person cannot and should not pay the penalties for the sins of others. That would be immoral.
DI3: 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
GW3: Nope. There were no eye witnesses to Jesus coming back to life. Who was in the tomb to see it? Nobody.
DI3: So now you know the work and will and gospel of God.
GW3: God does not exist. We now know and have proven this. I invite you to join the 21st century.
DI3: Repent (change your mind from trusting in your good works to save you) and believe/trust on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross for eternal life. Be saved.
GW3: There is no salvation. We all die and stay dead. You cannot erase sin, but there are moral and practical ways to deal with wrong doing.
DI3: Romans 4:4 “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
GW3: If he did exist, God would never set up a system based on grace, or forgiveness, or atonement. Instead, he would implement perfect justice. You don’t like that because you do not wish to be held accountable for your wrong doing.
DI3: Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
GW3: It is not a gift; it is a contingency. Faith is a vice, not a virtue. And most importantly, God does not exist. And yes, I boast that I have made this discovery. You can too.
BA,
“Eternal life is exactly what Jesus promised to those who are faithful” you said in one of your posts.
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16 NIV)” does not say that if we are faithful that we have eternal life. It says if we believe/trust in Him.
I gave you a link, which at the to show prophesies that show the Messiah would be God:
https://www.messianic.org/prophecy/a-comprehensive-list-of-messianic-prophecies
The first two sections are The Pre-Existence of the Messiah and The Messiah Would be God Incarnate. There are 19 prophesies in these two sections, which you either didn’t bother reading, or don’t believe.
You even gave proof and didn’t realize it:
“No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.”(John 3:13 NIV)
This clearly is Jesus saying He came from heaven. With all the proof you have that I’ve given concerning Jesus being God, along with the prophesies, if you still do not see the truth, I don’t know what else to tell you. He said “Before Abraham was, I AM”. He claimed to be God, plus all the Old Testament prophesies saying the Messiah was going to be God.
I agree that we are saved by grace, and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit (hence eternal life), and believe/trust Jesus’ words on eternal life. I agree that once saved, we should do good works, but not trust in them for for salvation.
As for “Faith without works are dead”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9csNnAqwQ0
DI—The first two sections are The Pre-Existence of the Messiah and The Messiah Would be God Incarnate. There are 19 prophesies in these two sections, which you either didn’t bother reading, or don’t believe.
You even gave proof and didn’t realize it:
“No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.”(John 3:13 NIV)
This clearly is Jesus saying He came from heaven. With all the proof you have that I’ve given concerning Jesus being God, along with the prophesies, if you still do not see the truth, I don’t know what else to tell you. He said “Before Abraham was, I AM”. He claimed to be God, plus all the Old Testament prophesies saying the Messiah was going to be God.
BA—Jesus very clearly lived in heaven with his Father before he came to earth, but that doesn’t make him God. “Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5) – Jesus’ glory is dependent on his Father, which shows they’re not equals.
John 17:3 – “This is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” (NIV). – When the founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ, stated that the Father alone is “the only true God”, he excluded himself and everyone else. Despite overwhelming the evidence, some Trinitarians try to claim that Jesus is included in the expression, “the only true God”. However, Jesus uses the word “and” to set himself apart and distinct from, “the only true God”, as the one whom his Father “sent” to earth. The word “only” in the Greek is “monos”, which means “only”, “alone”, “solitary”. The Greek word for “true” is “alethinos”, which means true in the sense of being genuine or real. When these two Greek words are put together, it can be seen that Jesus describes his Father as the only real and genuine God. “Only” limits and excludes. Anything described as “only” is in a class all by itself, it’s one of a kind, unique. Everything and everyone else is excluded. For example, when Paul said to the church at Philippi, “No church shared with in the matter of giving, except you alone” (Philippians 4:15 NRSV), all other churches were excluded. In another example, Jesus said, “About that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (Matthew 24:36 NRSV), everyone but the Father is excluded from knowing the exact time of the end of the world. The Father, “the greater” (John 13:16 NIV), sent the lesser – Jesus. Once again, the scriptures debunk the Trinitarian “equality” dogma.
John 3:16 – “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son” (LSB). What does “only begotten” mean in Jesus case? “Monogenēs may be used as an adjective. For example, monogenēs pais means only child, only legitimate child or special child. Monogenēs may also be used on its own as a noun. For example, o monogenēs means “the only one”, or “the only legitimate child” . . . Some interpretations of the word “unique” attempt to preclude birth, yet the full Greek meaning is always in the context of a child (genes). A unique child is also a born child, hence the full meaning of the word “begotten” as found in John 3:16 (KJV), for example” (Wikipedia ). Jesus’ being begotten means he hasn’t always existed. He had an “origin” (Micah 5:2 NRSV). He was created by God the Father. Isaac was Abraham’s “only begotten son” (Hebrews 11:17 NKJV; NASB), and other humans had “only begotten” children (Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38 LSB margin). The Trinitarian claim that “only begotten” means “eternally begotten” is thus soundly debunked by the scriptures.
John 8:58 – “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am’” (English Standard Version). As we see here, this verse is usually erroneously translated in a Trinitarian biased way that makes it appear that Jesus is the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14. When we examine the context, we see that the issue is: “‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ they said to him, ‘and you have seen Abraham?'” (John 7:57 NIV). The issue discussed in context is how old are you, not are you Almighty God! Therefore, in complete harmony with the Koine’ Greek of John 8:58, accurate translations read: “I existed before Abraham was born” (AAT); “Before Abraham was born, I was” (Lamsa). Did Jesus say “I Am” to identify himself as being the Almighty God Yahweh of Exodus 3:14, as Trinitarians claim? Let’s see:
“And God said to Moyses, ‘I am The One Who Is.’ And he said, ‘Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, “The One Who Is has sent me to you”‘” (Exodus 3:14 LXX NETS).
If Jesus had wanted to identify himself as the Yahweh of Exodus 3:14, he would have used the term “The One Who Is” to identify himself. Jesus had previously said: “If I testify on my own behalf, what I say is not to be accepted as real proof” (John 5:31 GNB). Yet, Trinitarians would have us believe that Jesus is testifying on his own behalf in John 8:58! Also, just moments before Jesus’ statement at John 8:58, Jesus said: “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me” (John 8:54 NIV). But that is exactly what Trinitarians, in contradiction to this, claim that Jesus is doing at John 8:58, by saying that he’s Almighty God. This is idea is also contradicted by Philippians 2:5-9, where we are are told that Jesus made himself nothing when he left heaven and came to earth. Trinitarians claim that Jesus’ Jewish opposers correctly understood that Jesus was claiming to be Almighty God Yahweh in John 8:58, so that is why “they picked up stones to stone him” (John 8:59 NIV). Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Jesus’ own words in the same conversation at John 8:43-47, as he makes clear that these opposers “do not. understand what I am saying” (NAB). At Matthew 16:20, Jesus “ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah” (NIV). In contradiction to Jesus’ order, Trinitarians would have us believe that Jesus is going around telling everyone, including his enemies, that he is the Almighty God Yahweh at John 8:58. As we can see from the abundant scriptural evidence, John 8:58 does nothing to support any Trinitarian ideas.
Unfortunately, God does not exist. We now know and have proven this. I have the proofs!
Read Job 9 1-8. Pay close attention to the 8th verse…who walked upon the water in the Bible? Jesus! And who was being described in Job? God! What a blessing to have so much evidence! Thank you Jesus for revealing yourself to us and walking with us!! Living in us and teaching us your truth!
I’m not sure you can really be saved if you don’t believe Jesus is God. The Bible gives so much proof (especially John 1), yet you’ve basically called God a liar in all your responses.
https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/do-i-have-to-believe-that-jesus-is-god-to-be-saved/
If you’re not believing in who He truly is, then really are you having saving faith? That’s between you and God. I have tried to give Scripture and you’ve done nothing but deny much truth.
If Jesus was not fully God AND fully man, His blood sacrifice for us would not pay our sin debt. He didn’t have a have a human man’s DNA. He got all his characteristics as far as looks from his mother’s DNA. It was only because He is God that He was sinless, and therefore the perfect (and only perfect person to ever live) Lamb of God. The Old Testament sacrifices of animals did not take away sins. They were a foreshadow of the Messiah/Christ to come. He died once for all. And His sacrifice was perfect and accepted by the Father.
This will be my last post. I just wanted to give you one more chance to see and acknowledge the truth. I will not be responding any more, because it seems that you are here just to deny a lot of Biblical truth and you are depending on faith plus works, yet faith in what? Just a normal man’s blood? If He was sinless He was not just a man.
DI—Read Job 9 1-8. Pay close attention to the 8th verse…who walked upon the water in the Bible? Jesus! And who was being described in Job? God! What a blessing to have so much evidence! Thank you Jesus for revealing yourself to us and walking with us!! Living in us and teaching us your truth!
BA—Rather than let someone else put their ideas into our heads, let’s see what the scriptures themselves really say.
“God is the One . . . who alone stretches out the heavens And tramples down the waves of the sea” (Job 9:5,8 LSB). Job 9 is describing God. When Jesus walked on water, who did his disciples say he was?
“Those who were in the boat did him homage, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God'” (Matthew 14:33 NAB). They did not think Jesus was God. They knew he is ‘THE SON OF GOD”.
DI—I’m not sure you can really be saved if you don’t believe Jesus is God. The Bible gives so much proof (especially John 1), yet you’ve basically called God a liar in all your responses.
BA—Why did John say he wrote his Gospel?
John 20:31 – “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (NIV). John here states the main reason why the Gospel of John was written. The Gospel of John was not written to prove Jesus is the mythological “God the Son,” of the Trinity dogma, but, rather to prove “that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God”. He goes on to state that by believing “that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God”, one may have eternal life. Thus, John 20:31 stands in sharp contrast with the Trinitarian Athanasian Creed, which says that a person cannot be saved unless they believe in the Trinity.
DI—If you’re not believing in who He truly is, then really are you having saving faith? That’s between you and God. I have tried to give Scripture and you’ve done nothing but deny much truth.
BA—“All Scripture is inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16), and we believe every word of it. What we don’t believe are “false doctrines”, “man-made ideas” that “cancel the word of God” (1 Timothy 1:3 NIV; Mark 7:7,13 NLT), such as the Trinity, and Once Saved, always Saved.
DI—If Jesus was not fully God AND fully man, His blood sacrifice for us would not pay our sin debt. He didn’t have a have a human man’s DNA. He got all his characteristics as far as looks from his mother’s DNA.
BA—1 John 4:2 – “This is the proof of the spirit of God: any spirit which acknowledges Jesus Christ, come in human nature, is from God” (NJB). “Jesus Christ has come as a human being” (1 John 4:2 GNB). God did not come in the flesh, Jesus did. Why? “God is not human” (Numbers 23:19), therefore Jesus can’t be God.
Hebrews 2:17 – “For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people” (NIV). – Who made him like them? – Obviously, God! Notice that Jesus was “fully human in every way”. He “became flesh” (John 1:14). However, “God is spirit” (John 4:24). “God is not a man” (Numbers 23:19). The Trinitarian “God-man” is here proven to be unscriptural.
Hebrews 4:15 – “We . . . have a high priest . . . who has been tempted in every way, just as we are” – Jesus was “tempted” because he was “fully human in every way” (Hebrews 2:17 NIV). But “God is not human” (Numbers 23:19). Also, since James 1:13 says, “God cannot be tempted”, there is no way that Jesus can be God.
Also, a being who is both God and man could hardly be truly human, ‘tempted in all points even as we are’ (Hebrews 4:15). The doctrine that “Jesus was God” is incompatible with the scriptural teaching that he was really human. The “God-man”, “incarnated”, “Dual natured” Jesus concept of Trinitarianism is, in reality, “a different Jesus” (2 Corinthians 10:4 NLT), and “a different kind of good news” (Galatians 1:6 NLT).
DI—It was only because He is God that He was sinless, and therefore the perfect (and only perfect person to ever live) Lamb of God.
BA—Jesus was sinless for sure, but not because he was God.
Hebrews 4:14 – “Since we have a great high high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess”. “We have a great high priest” – Jesus, not God – “who has ascended into heaven,” – As the Aaronic high priest did on Atonement Day, passing from the sight of the people into the Most Holy, Jesus the superior Melchezedekian High Priest, passed from the sight of his disciples, ascending into heaven (Acts 1:9-11). “Jesus, the Son of God.” – Not the Trinitarian “God the Son”, a term never used in the Bible..
Hebrews 4:15 – “We . . . have a high priest . . . who has been tempted in every way, just as we are — yet he did not sin” – Jesus was “tempted” because he was “fully human in every way” (Hebrews 2:17 NIV). But “God is not human” (Numbers 23:19). Also, since James 1:13 says, “God cannot be tempted”, there is no way that Jesus can be God. Trinitarians sometimes claim that Jesus had to be God to be sinless. Hebrews 4:14,15, and other scriptures, prove that assertion false for several reasons: (1) Jesus is identified as “the Son of God”, not God; (2) Jesus is identified as “high priest”. God is not a priest; (3) God can’t be tempted, but Jesus was, “AND YET HE DID NOT SIN”.
DI—The Old Testament sacrifices of animals did not take away sins. They were a foreshadow of the Messiah/Christ to come. He died once for all. And His sacrifice was perfect and accepted by the Father.
BA—True, but none of that makes Jesus God.
DI—This will be my last post. I just wanted to give you one more chance to see and acknowledge the truth. I will not be responding any more, because it seems that you are here just to deny a lot of Biblical truth and you are depending on faith plus works, yet faith in what?
BA—We’re glad you visited here, and you’re welcome back anytime.
However, if you thought you could convince us to accept “doctrines of demons” (1 Timothy 4:1 LSB), such as the Trinity and Once Saved, Always Saved, you’re sadly mistaken.
We’ll stick with “the word of God” (1 Thessalonians 2:13), thank you.
DI—Just a normal man’s blood? If He was sinless He was not just a man.
BA—We never said he was any such thing, and don’t know where you would get such an idea!
Hebrews 7:26 – “He is the kind of high priest we need, because he is holy and blameless, unstained by sin. He has been set apart from sinners” (NLT).
DI—“Eternal life is exactly what Jesus promised to those who are faithful” you said in one of your posts.
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16 NIV)” does not say that if we are faithful that we have eternal life. It says if we believe/trust in Him.
BA—Jesus said, “It is the one who endures to the end who will be saved” (Matthew 10:22; 24:13 LSB).
DI–I agree that we are saved by grace, and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit (hence eternal life), and believe/trust Jesus’ words on eternal life. I agree that once saved, we should do good works, but not trust in them for for salvation.
BA—Can we lose our salvation? — We sure can:
“In the case of those once having been enlightened and having tasted of the heavenly gift and having become partakers of the Holy Spirit . . . and having fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance”—Hebrews 6:4-6 LSB
“BA—If the Trinity was in the Bible, we would believe.
However, there is not even a single verse in the Bible that elucidates the Trinity.”
Not a single verse???
From the very first verse in the Bible, we see God as a plural “Elohim”.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
All three persons of the Triune God presented here.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
This is just one MANY links that I found doing a internet search:
https://biblestudyforyou.com/verses-about-trinity-in-the-bible/
DI—“BA—If the Trinity was in the Bible, we would believe.
However, there is not even a single verse in the Bible that elucidates the Trinity.”
Not a single verse???
From the very first verse in the Bible, we see God as a plural “Elohim”.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
BA—“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). “Let us make mankind in our own image” (Genesis 1:26 NIV). The Hebrew word “Elohim” is translated “God,” which the plural of “El,” so it is asserted that “Elohim” stands for the Trinity. In other words, it is claimed that “the Trinity created the heavens and the earth,” and “the Trinity spoke to itself (“us”) about creating humans.”
However, the Hebrew “Elohim” is also used for excellence or majesty, and, in the Bible, often is used for the Almighty God, Yahweh. Even the singular pagan god Dagon is described as “Dagon our god [Elohim]” (1 Samuel 5:7). The Biblical Almighty God is a singular God, according to the Bible. Notice:
“Our God YHWH–YHWH is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4 LSV).
Jesus quoted the above by saying, “THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD” (Mark 12:29 NASB).
“God is only one” (Galatians 3:20 NASB).
“There is no God but one . . . for us there is but one God” (1 Corinthians 8:4,6).
Thus, Trinitarians simply imagine the Triune God right into Genesis 1:1,26.
DI—Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
All three persons of the Triune God presented here.
BA—Matthew 3:16-17 – “As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment, heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased” (NIV). Trinitarians count 1,2,3 here in this verse, and say, here is the Trinity. However, notice that Almighty God calls Jesus “my Son”. Jesus is frequently called “the Son of God”, but he is never called “God the Son,” which is the often-used Trinitarian label that is never used in the Bible. Please also notice that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are in separate locations.
Jesus is in the water
Holy Spirit in the form of dove is in the air
God is in heaven and says, “This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Therefore, they cannot be the same. Not one aspect of the Trinity dogma is mentioned in Matthew 3:16,17—no equality, no Almightiness, nothing about being eternal.
DI—Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
BA—Matthew 28:19 – “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you” (NIV). Trinitarians claim that “in the name of” means one Trinitarian name for the three. However, “of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” means the three are entirely separate and distinct. ” . . . immersing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Smith’s Literal Translation”. Literally, according to the Greek, disciples are to be immersed “into the name of ” the three entities. “Name of” simply represents the recognition of the authority of the three entities. This is similar to the often heard expression, “in the name of the law”. No one thinks of “the law” as having personality. Similarly, while the Father and the Son are persons, “in the name of” doesn’t mean the holy Spirit is a person.
Trinitarians count, one, two, three . . . and voila – there’s the Trinity! They simply imagine the doctrine right into the text, and never stop to really think it through. The mention of the three together doesn’t make them a Trinity in Matthew, any more the mention of “Stephanus, Fortunatus and Achaichus” (1 Corinthians 16:17) together make them a Trinity. There isn’t even one single aspect of the Trinity dogma in this context, i.e., nothing about the three being God, or Almighty, or eternal, or equal, or of the three being of one “substance”, “essence”, or “being”, etc.
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
But Donald, if God did exist, then he would have already appeared at least 28,000 times to all living persons at the same time. And yet, this has not occurred even once. Therefore, God does not exist. Think! If you disagree, let’s hear why you disagree, without using the Bible which just represents the beliefs of authors who already agree with you. Are you able to think for yourself?
DI—Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
BA—We’re very familiar with Titus 2:13, and how Trintarians try to use to prop up their dogma.
More accurately, the verse is translated as it is in the following fourteen Bible translations:
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13 KJV).
“the appearing of the glory, of the great God and of our savior, the Anointed One, Jesus” (Titus 2:13 Hart)
“As we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13 NAB).
“While we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and our Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13 NRSV margin).
“looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of glory our great and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13 LSB margin).
“looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13 ASV).
“Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13 Douay)
“looking forward to the blessed hope and the advent of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13 Catholic Public Domain Version)
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13 Lamsa Bible).
“While we look for the blessed hope and the revelation of the glory of The Great God and Our Lifegiver, Yeshua The Messiah” (Titus 2:13 Aramaic Bible In Plain English)
“looking for the blessed hope even the appearing of the glory of our great God and our Saviour Christ Jesus” (Titus 2:13 Godbey New Testament).
“in expectation of that desirable happiness, the glorious appearance of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13 Mace New Testament).
“looking for the blissful hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13 Worrell New Testament).
“looking for the blessed hope, and glorious appearance of the great God, and our Saviour, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13 Worsley New Testament)
God and Jesus are thus spoken of as completely separate and distinct yet again in Titus 2:13. Notice, this refers to an appearance of both God and Jesus, but what about the holy Spirit? There’s no reference to its appearing since it’s not a person. Why is the Trinity not said to appear? Because it doesn’t exist. Also, Jesus said that, “The Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father” (Matthew 16:27 ESV). So Jesus’ glory comes from his Father, and is not original with him.
You are a heretic. You named your site Bible Authenticity yet you spend your time spreading lies against the Bible and trying to disprove what it plainly says. It does not mention Father in Titus 2:13. Father is a spirit. It plainly says Jesus is God and Savior. You twist Scripture, and are trying to deceive people. I hope people don’t visit your site. May God have mercy on your soul.
DI—You are a heretic. You twist Scripture, and are trying to deceive people. I hope people don’t visit your site.
BA—Jesus was slandered by being called a ‘demonized Samaritan’ (John 8:48), so we’re in good company!
Instead of dealing with the real issue, you resort to personal attacks, such as calling the other person a ‘deceiver’ and denigrating those who believe differently (John 7:47-49).
DI— It does not mention Father in Titus 2:13. Father is a spirit. It plainly says Jesus is God and Savior.
BA—In the book of Titus, “God” is “the Father”.
“To Titus, my true child in our common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our savior” (Titus 1:4 NAB).
Do you believe the King James Version?
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13 KJV).
In the King James Version, God and Jesus are two separate individuals.
DI—You named your site Bible Authenticity yet you spend your time spreading lies against the Bible and trying to disprove what it plainly says.
BA—False, this site respects and upholds the Bible’s Authenticity, but we are firmly against “false doctrines” (1 Timothy 1:3,4 NIV).
The following is taken from an article under “Introductory Material” on this website:
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Tim 3:16-17) The Bible completely equips Christians because it is the only divinely inspired writing.
“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.” (Prov 30:5-6) The Bible is perfect because it is God’s Word and does not need to be supplemented.
“I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.” (Rev 22:18-19) Adding to or subtracting anything from the Bible is condemned by God.
“Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.” (Jn 17:17)The Bible is God’s Word.
“Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. ” (Jude 3) This body of truth, or faith, contained in the Bible was delivered once for all time, being completed by around 100 CE.
“Remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold.” (Jude 17) The word of the apostles was authoritative. The New Testament was written by four apostles directly chosen by Jesus, namely, Matthew, John, Peter and Paul. Four other close associates of the apostles also wrote the New Testament.
But ladies and gentlemen, God does not exist. If he did exist, you wouldn’t be disagreeing with each other about him. God would regularly meet with us, all at the same time. We would all see and hear the same thing. We would all know the truth, and we would not disagree, dispute, or fight about God. Duh. But this kind of meeting has NEVER EVER happened. And this is one way we know that God does not exist. Case closed.
None of you has defeated this proof.
I am amused to see the Christians disagreeing with each other. Great entertainment. If God did exist, there would be no disagreement about God and there would be no atheists at all.
GW—I am amused to see the Christians disagreeing with each other. Great entertainment. If God did exist, there would be no disagreement about God and there would be no atheists at all.
BA—You “have two differing weights in your bag — one heavy and one light” (Deuteronomy 25:13 NIV). In other words you’ve got two different standards you use — one for atheists and another for Christians.
If atheists were judged by the same standards you judge Christians by:
God must exist because there are disagreements among atheists!!!!
BA—You “have two differing weights in your bag — one heavy and one light” (Deuteronomy 25:13 NIV). In other words you’ve got two different standards you use — one for atheists and another for Christians.
GW: First, you are misinterpreting the verse. Secondly, I do have two different standards, one for atheists and another for Christians. Because of the assumed nature of God, the standard for theists is that they should be in agreement about God, if he did exist. But the only thing that atheists agree on is that they do not believe in any deities at all. There is no good reason to think they would agree on God, except that they do not believe he exists since he is one of thousands of deities.
GW: Here is the argument nicely laid out just for you:
1. Definition: God is 1) the hypothetical, unique, exclusive, supernatural, self-sufficient, free, spiritual, normally invisible person, conscious intelligent agent, or sentient entity (primary traits). He* is maximally enduring, perceiving, intelligent, rational, knowing, creative, powerful, and resilient (primary traits). He wants, but does not need, loving relationships with other persons (primary trait). He is also maximally loving, compassionate, cooperative, authoritative, and moral with respect to other persons (secondary traits). He is designer and creator of the cosmos, occasional interventionist in the world, and the afterlife manager who decides the favorable or unfavorable disposition of human persons after they die (secondary traits). or 2) the Greatest Imaginable Possible Person (the “GIPPer”) or ideal person who, if he existed, would possess all desirable traits to the highest degrees and no undesirable traits, and who would be worthy of our greatest respect, admiration, and worship. (*God would not have a sex or gender, but I shall use male pronouns to refer to God to be consistent with tradition.) (30A)
2. If God did exist, he would regularly and directly communicate with all living persons at the same time.
3. If God did exist and communicated in this way (See #2), then there would be no disagreements, disputes, or conflicts about God. Everyone would learn the truth about God.
4. But there are billions of disagreements, disputes, and conflicts about God, and BA and DI are having one during the last week.
5. Therefore, God does not and cannot exist.
BA: If atheists were judged by the same standards you judge Christians by:
God must exist because there are disagreements among atheists!!!!
GW: No, you are making a non sequitur error – “Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.” The same standard cannot be used for both theists and atheists because of the presumed nature of God. See the argument above. God would prove to everyone that he exist, and then everyone would agree about him.
BA—You “have two differing weights in your bag — one heavy and one light” (Deuteronomy 25:13 NIV). In other words you’ve got two different standards you use — one for atheists and another for Christians.
GW: First, you are misinterpreting the verse. Secondly, I do have two different standards, one for atheists and another for Christians. Because of the assumed nature of God, the standard for theists is that they should be in agreement about God, if he did exist. But the only thing that atheists agree on is that they do not believe in any deities at all. There is no good reason to think they would agree on God, except that they do not believe he exists since he is one of thousands of deities.
BA—You still “have two differing weights in your bag — one heavy and one light” (Deuteronomy 25:13 NIV).
Using the same standard for Christians that you use for atheists:
There is no good reason to believe that they would all agree, except that they all believe in the existence of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and God the Father.
BA—You still “have two differing weights in your bag — one heavy and one light” (Deuteronomy 25:13 NIV).
GW: Weights are not necessarily standards. You provided no context for the verse.
BA: Using the same standard for Christians that you use for atheists: There is no good reason to believe that they would all agree, except that they all believe in the existence of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and God the Father.
GW: You just aren’t following the logic. If God did exist, there would be no atheists or agnostics, and all theists would believe the same thing about God. They would have any disagreements about him as you and DI have been having. Why? Because God would tell us the truth. But since there are atheists and since theists disagree greatly about God, therefore God does not exist.
Also, there would be no Son of God or Jesus Christ. Why? Because God would not use representatives, messengers, or proxies to do his work. He would do his own work — giving lectures, teaching, doing miracles, rewarding, punishing, and reforming. Keep in mind that he would be all powerful, all knowing, and perfectly moral. No need for Santa’s Little Helpers.
1. Definition: God is 1) the hypothetical, unique, exclusive, supernatural, self-sufficient, free, spiritual, normally invisible person, conscious intelligent agent, or sentient entity (primary traits). He* is maximally enduring, perceiving, intelligent, rational, knowing, creative, powerful, and resilient (primary traits). He wants, but does not need, loving relationships with other persons (primary trait). He is also maximally loving, compassionate, cooperative, authoritative, and moral with respect to other persons (secondary traits). He is designer and creator of the cosmos, occasional interventionist in the world, and the afterlife manager who decides the favorable or unfavorable disposition of human persons after they die (secondary traits). or 2) the Greatest Imaginable Possible Person (the “GIPPer”) or ideal person who, if he existed, would possess all desirable traits to the highest degrees and no undesirable traits, and who would be worthy of our greatest respect, admiration, and worship. (*God would not have a sex or gender, but I shall use male pronouns to refer to God to be consistent with tradition.) (30A)
2. If God did exist, he would regularly and directly communicate with all living persons at the same time.
3. If God did exist and communicated in this way (See #2), then there would be no disagreements, disputes, or conflicts about God. Everyone would learn the truth about God.
4. But there are billions of disagreements, disputes, and conflicts about God, and BA and DI are having one during the last week.
5. Therefore, God does not and cannot exist.
Thanks for the performance, guys! I enjoyed it.
I am definitely a heretic! God does not exist. We now know and have proven this. If he did exist, you guys wouldn’t be disagreeing about him. Duh.
Thank you all for this entertaining disagreement. Accusation, counter accusation. Name calling. Ad hominem attacks. None of this would happen, if God did exist. Duh. You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free, of your delusions and superstitions.
Thank you for all of your delusional and inaccurate comments. Free will, duh. God does exist, but for you, you will never meet him. When you die, that’s it my friend. Nothing more to say to you. Your comments are hysterical and sad at the same time. Mrs. BA
You are welcome for all my rational and correct comments. Always glad to be of help. What about free will? Make your case.
God does not exist, and so you will never meet him. I have presented two or three proofs that he does not exist on this website, and neither of you managers has found an error.
When you die, that’s it, my acquaintance. When our brains die, that is the permanent end of our personal experience, consciousness, and existence. Sad, but true.
Mrs. BA, you may feel sad about my comments, and I feel the same way. I am sad that God does not exist. I am sad that there is no afterlife. But wishing otherwise does not make it true.
Although Christians live by faith, there is the Bible which is 25% prophesy (one of my favorites is Daniel 9:24-27. That said Messiah would be here by 32 AD, He would be cut off, but not for Himself, and then second temple and city of Jerusalem would be destroyed which happened in 70 AD. This prophesy in Daniel was written over 500 years before Jesus was born:
https://www.gotquestions.org/seventy-weeks.html). and archeological evidence (such as the Dead Sea scrolls, and Ron Wyatt discoveries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIpvIVLQ2Dk), as well as Flavius Josephus the Jewish historian that lived and mentions Jesus.
https://josephus.org/testimonium.htm
I would like to recommend some YouTube channels and websites,
. Andrew Farley (https://www.youtube.com/@TheGraceMessage) (https://andrewfarley.org/) (https://www.facebook.com/DrAndrewFarley) (https://x.com/DrAndrewFarley) (https://www.instagram.com/drandrewfarley/) (https://www.tiktok.com/@drandrewfarley)
. Bible Line (https://www.youtube.com/@BibleLine)
. Onorato Diamante (https://www.youtube.com/@OnoDiamante)
. Eternally saved through Christ (https://www.youtube.com/@ericsenecal9203)
. Yankee Arnold Ministries (https://www.youtube.com/@YankeeArnoldMinistries) (https://yankeearnold.com/)
. Northland Bible Baptist Church (https://www.youtube.com/@Northlandchurchstc) (https://www.northlandchurch.com/) (https://www.sermonaudio.com/broadcasters/northlandchurch/) (https://www.secureforever.org/)
Pastor Cucuzza has verse by verse sermon playlists going through books of the Bible on his YouTube channel Northland Bible Baptist Church.
He also has a website called https://www.secureforever.org/, where he has a free online verse by verse New Testament commentary written by himself.
I’ve personally found these resources indispensable.
Naturalistic Explanations of Supposedly Accurate Prophesies:
1. Later authors knew earlier prophesies and fabricated stories to match those prophesies.
2. Some persons knew earlier prophesies and acted in such a way to match them. (Self-fulfilling prophesy)
3. Most prophesies are vague, ambiguous, or imprecise. Rarely do they predict who, what, when, where, why, and how.
4. Some prophets may have just been good historians or sociologists who are correct in their predictions at a higher rate than lay persons.
5. Lucky guesses.
6. True positives are cherry-picked and false positives are ignored.
7. Metaphorical, figurative, or other non-literal writing is mistakenly interpreted as a prediction of the future.
One of my favorite prophesies is one Jesus himself makes in which he proclaims that he will return to Earth to bring in his kingdom after he dies but before those to whom he is speaking have died. His prophesy failed.
God does not exist. We now know and have proven this. Even little ole me has several proofs of this.
Donald, I thought you were leaving the website. Is that another failed prophesy?
GW—
BA—You’re sadly mistaken, friend.
Was Jesus Christ being born in Bethlehem, foretold, or predicted, in advance? Many of the Dead Sea Scrolls have been accurately dated to before Jesus was born.
“Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms”—Luke 24:44 NIV
Critics claim that Jesus was just an ordinary man, and that predictive prophecy is impossible, and therefore deny that Jesus fulfilled any Old Testament prophecies. Since there are so many prophecies that Jesus actually fulfilled, critics resort to claiming that the prophecies in the Old Testament were written after the fact, so as to conform to what happened to Jesus, and also that the New Testament recordings of these fulfillments are frauds, that is, written to conform to Old Testament predictions.
However, these assertions by skeptics and critics are proven false by the facts. Some manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls are independently dated to before Jesus was even born. What happened to Jesus’ regarding his birth, mistreatment, execution, and death was beyond his control. If there were only one or two such fulfillments, the case for these prophecies may not be as strong, but with the huge number of fulfilled prophecies in the one man Jesus, and they being beyond his control, and with extant manuscript copies dated prior to his birth, the critics claims are vanquished! There is abundant evidence of the details of Jesus in the Dead Sea Scrolls!
I’m sorry for calling you a name. But I do believe it’s clear that Jesus is God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God. 2 The same (Jesus) was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.
So Jesus is clearly the Word of God, God, and Creator. God the Father is spirit. God the Son was the Word (that became flesh, so we shall soon see), and is now raised to His glorious body as we see in Revelation.
John 1:10 He (Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made by him (Jesus), and the world knew him (Jesus) not.
John 1:14 And the Word (Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his (Jesus) glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So the Word of God (Jesus) is God and Creator per John 1.
DI1: I’m sorry for calling you a name.
GW1: Please don’t call people names. That is irrational, uncivil, unethical, and even unChristian.
DI1: But I do believe it’s clear that Jesus is God.
GW1: I refuted this claim already. Jesus clearly distinguished himself from God, his Father, many times. Jesus did not behave or communicate like God would, if he did exist. Therefore, it is impossible that Jesus was God.
DI1: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God. 2 The same (Jesus) was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.
GW: As I showed before, the verse contradicts itself. If Jesus was with God, then Jesus could not be God. They are two separate persons.
DI1: So Jesus is clearly the Word of God, God, and Creator. God the Father is spirit. God the Son was the Word (that became flesh, so we shall soon see), and is now raised to His glorious body as we see in Revelation.
GW1: You are making the error of begging the question. Nobody knows that the universe had a beginning, a creation, or a creator. You, or the Bible authors, are making a God of the Gaps type of argument.
DI1: John 1:10 He (Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made by him (Jesus), and the world knew him (Jesus) not.
GW1: If the world did not know Jesus, then he could not be God. If God revealed himself to the world and communicate to people, everyone would know he existed, and far more.
DI1: John 1:14 And the Word (Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his (Jesus) glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
GW1: If Jesus was “made flesh,” then it would have been by God, and so Jesus and God must be two separate persons. If Jesus was “begotten of the Father [God]”, then he could not be God himself. I thank you for providing the verses which REFUTE your own claim.
DI1: So the Word of God (Jesus) is God and Creator per John 1.
GW1: You and SOME of the theologians, religious and political leaders of the 200s and 300s have misinterpreted the writings of John. Jesus could not have been God. If Jesus had been God, then all the journalists and historians living at the time of Jesus would have documented his speeches and acts. This did not happen.
DI—I’m sorry for calling you a name. But I do believe it’s clear that Jesus is God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God. 2 The same (Jesus) was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.
So Jesus is clearly the Word of God, God, and Creator. God the Father is spirit. God the Son was the Word (that became flesh, so we shall soon see), and is now raised to His glorious body as we see in Revelation.
John 1:10 He (Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made by him (Jesus), and the world knew him (Jesus) not.
John 1:14 And the Word (Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his (Jesus) glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So the Word of God (Jesus) is God and Creator per John 1
BA—Thanks for your kind apology.
The scriptures disagree with Trinitarian claims about John 1.
John 1:1-2– “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning” (NIV). Trinitarians claim this means Jesus is their “God the Son”. Is Jesus “God the Son’?Twice it is stated in these two scriptures that Jesus “was with God”. A reasonable and logical question is: How could Jesus be with Almighty God, and be Almighty God at the same time, as the Trinity asserts? – The fact is, he can’t! That is impossible nonsense! Another question is, “Is the God that the Word was with the Trinity?” Is so, the Word, plus the Trinity, equals four (3 + 1 = 4). Another question, “Is the God the Word was with the Father?” If so, how do we know who the is God the Word was is? Another question, does, “In the beginning was the Word”, mean Jesus is eternal, as Trinitarians claim?
“Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works” (Proverbs 8:22 NJB). Jesus, as “the wisdom of God” personified (1 Corinthians 1:24), says that Yahweh created him says the very first of Yahweh’s creations, before anything else was created. This explains why, “In the beginning the Word was”. It’s because Jesus existed prior to the beginning that Genesis 1:1 refers to, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”, that is, the beginning of the physical, material creation.
“But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah, who are one of the little clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days” (Micah 5:2 NRSV). Matthew 2:1-6 confirms that Micah 5:2 accurately predicted the birthplace of the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth. But Micah 5:2 also does something else very significant. It says that Jesus had an “origin”, a beginning, not with his birth on earth, but long before that, in the distant past. This scriptural fact overturns the key Trinitarian claim that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, has always been eternal. Jesus’ having an “origin” is powerful proof that he has not always been eternal, but was created.
Notice the footnote to John 1:1 in the New American Bible (NAB):
“Was God: lack of a definite article with ‘God’ in Greek signifies predication rather than identification.”
Identification means, “the action or process of identifying someone or something or the fact of being identified.” (Dictionary.com). For example, A = A, like “Jesus is that prophet.” Predication describes something about the subject. Therefore, “God” describes “the Word” as being godlike, but does not identify him as Almighty God.
Yes, Jesus is “God”, in the sense of being “the only begotten God” (John 1:18 LSB), meaning that Jesus was created, and is obviously not the Almighty God, who created everything. Jesus is also “God” in a similar sense that Moses, Israelite kings, rulers and judges were called “God” (Exodus 7:1 EB; Psalm 45:6 NAB; Psalm 82:6 NAB). This is similar to the Biblical use of “God” to describe a prominent human, and the footnote that explains it:
“Your throne, O God, stands forever”—Psalm 45:7 NAB (45:6 in most translations)
“O God: the king, in courtly language, is called ‘god,’ i.e., more than human representing to the people. Heb[rews] 1:8,9 applies Ps[alm] 45:7,8 to Christ”—footnote in NAB on Psalm 45:7
As for John 1:1, it is more accurately translated in the following two translations:
“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine” (AAT).
“In the origin there was the Logos, and the Logos was present with GOD, and the Logos was god (Hart).
These two translations make it very clear that there is a difference between the God that the Word was with, and the Word who is “divine”, and is “god”, but in a different sense, as the lower case “g” in “god” suggests. However, even if we accept the more commonly translated, “and the Word was God”, other scriptures in context clear up the difference. The Word, Jesus, is with God, therefore, they must be different individuals, with separate identities. They are not of the same “essence”, “substance”, or “being”, as Trinitarians claim. Is this, in any way whatsoever, asserting that Jesus is Almighty God? Is Jesus eternal? Let’s look at other scriptures in John for clarification on whether on the question of whether God is a Trinity:
John 1:3,10 – “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made . . . the world came to be through him” (NIV). Almighty God the Father created everything “through” Jesus, which indicates that Jesus is not the creator, but is “God’s agent in the creation of all things” (NAB note on Colossians 1:16).
John 1:14 – “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. and we have beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth” (NKJV).
Jesus, the Word, became flesh; people saw his glory, which was that of God’s only begotten Son, not the so-called ‘God the Son.’ This verse also makes clear that Jesus came from the Father. He not only isn’t the Father, he’s not God. Trinitarians assert that Jesus was “God-man” on earth, in other word, he was both God and man at the same time. However, notice what NAB Study Bible note on John 1:14 says, “Flesh: the whole person,” which means Jesus was completely flesh, and no part of him. was “spirit.” Jesus said that “God is spirit” (John 4:24), which excludes Jesus from being God. Additionally, Jesus being “begotten” means his life had a beginning. He was created by God the Father. Isaac was Abraham’s “only begotten son” (Hebrews 11:17 NKJV; NASB), and other humans had “only begotten” children (Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38 LSB margin). The Trinitarian claim that “only begotten” means “eternally begotten” is thus soundly debunked by the scriptures.
“Whose origin is from of old, from ancient days” (Micah 5:2 NRSV). The Bible is very clear that Jesus had an “origin”, a beginning to his life. Only “Yahweh” “God” is “from everlasting” (Psalm 90:2,13 LSB).
Since Jesus’ life had a beginning, he has not been eternal. This fact from John eliminates the ‘eternal’ pillar from the Trinity doctrine. Additionally, by saying “we beheld His glory,” that means many people saw Jesus. But, “no one has ever seen God” (1 John 4:12 NIV), because “the only God” is “invisible” (1 Timothy 1:17 NIV). For this reason also, Jesus cannot be Almighty God.
Why don’t we believe in the Trinity doctrine? — We’re very familiar with it.
“The Trinity is a doctrine where error is especially deadly”—Dr John MacArthur
We believe that John MacArthur is onto something when he says, The Trinity is a doctrine where error is especially deadly”, although we disagree about exactly what that error is.
“Command certain people not to teach false doctrines”—1 Timothy 1:3 NIV
Since the Trinity Doctrine is said to be the main, or primary, teaching, of Christianity, why is it so disputed down to this day?
Accurate history tells us that:
(1) Various Trinities were taught and believed in many pagan religions prior to Jesus, going all the way back to ancient Babylon, 3,000 years before Christ!
(2) The Bible’s Old Testament canon closed about 400 BCE, saying nothing about any Trinity, or Trinitarian ideas..
(3) The Bible’s New Testament canon closed about 100 CE, also lacking any mention of any Trinity, or Trinitarian ideas.
(4) The Greek New Testament Master Refined Text became even more strongly fixed than ever during the latter part of the 20th century, with the publication of the Nestle-Aland (N-A) 26th Edition (now in its 28th Edition) and the United Bible Societies’ (UBS) 3rd Edition (now in its 5th Edition). These two independently done Greek Texts are now identical. They are based upon collation and critical anaylsis of the 5,800 extant New Testament manuscripts, some of which are dated to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th centuries CE.
(5) The integrity of the New Testament (NT) Text we have today is so far greater than anything else from ancient times that there is nothing anywhere close to it in textual integrity. This is what we would expect from “the word of God” (1 Thessalonians 2:13).
(6) It can truly be said of Christianity that it is a textually based religion. It is “written down,” “with paper and ink” (John 21:25; 2 John 14 NLT). The popular myth that the text of the Bible has been changed through handwritten copying and recopying through the centuries is unsupported by the facts.
(7) It was accurately predicted that “men will come forward perverting the truth” (Acts 20:30 NAB). However, the fixed Biblical text has served as a powerful safeguard against doctrinal changes.
(8) The Trinity doctrine, as we know it today, with the three in one idea, did not even appear on the scene until late in the 4th century CE, and was greatly disputed then, and it still is.
From the Bible we learn that:
(1) Jesus based his teachings upon the scriptures. “Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (Luke 24:44 NIV), which is the way the entire Old Testament was referred to in those days.
(2) The early Christian Church based its decisions upon the Scriptures—Acts 15:12-18
(3) The early individual Christians based their teachings entirely on the Scriptures— “He reasoned with them from the Scriptures . . . they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true” (Acts 17:2,3,11 NIV). Also see Acts 28:23.
(4) Teaching “different doctrine” (1 Timothy 1:3 ESV), or “false doctrines” (1 Timothy 1:3 NIV), was/were not allowed.
(5) Teaching “a different Jesus”, or “a different gospel” was not allowed—2 Corinthians 11:4 NLT; Galatians 1:6 NIV; NAB
(6) Going “beyond what is written in the scriptures” was not allowed—1 Corinthians 4:6 GWT
(7) “Speculations” were not allowed—1 Timothy 1:4 NIV
(8) The Church was to “test” (1 John 4:1 NIV), and “weigh carefully, what is said” ( 1 Corinthians 14:29 NIV)
(9) The fixed text of the Bible, especially the New Testament, serves as a safeguard against “all kinds of strange teachings” (Hebrews 13:9 NIV)
(10) A false doctrine might take hold for a while, but the Bible’s fixed text tends to bring the true Biblical teachings back into focus. “All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers in the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord endures forever” (1 Peter 1:24,25 NIV). This is the reason for the huge controversy over Trinitarian doctrine today. A false doctrine, such as the Trinity, is developed through a ‘distortion of the scriptures’ (2 Peter 3:15,16).
(11) “The faith that was once for all handed down to the holy ones” (Jude 3 NAB) was in written form with the completion of the New Testament by the end of the 1st century. This, and other scriptures, implies that there is nothing “add to” it (Proverbs 30:5,6 NIV). In fact God has preserved his word, like nothing else has ever been preserved. “All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord endures forever” (1 Peter 1:24,25 NIV). This fixed New Testament text serves as a safeguard against any doctrinal changes. It is true that unscriptural doctrinal changes, such as the Trinity, have been made, but “because of the truth,” “those who love the truth,” (2 John 1,2) reject them, and stick with what the Bible itself teaches.
This fixed text of the Bible, especially the New Testament, is why the Trinity is so disputed, and is, in fact, contradicted, by the Bible itself.
Not one aspect of the Trinity doctrine is found within the Biblical text itself.
BA—You’re sadly mistaken, friend.
GW: No, you are sadly mistaken.
BA: Was Jesus Christ being born in Bethlehem, foretold, or predicted, in advance?
GW: No, of course not. Most prophesies are vague, ambiguous, or imprecise. Rarely do they predict who, what, when, where, why, and how.
BA: Many of the Dead Sea Scrolls have been accurately dated to before Jesus was born.
GW: So what? A prophesy could appear accurate when it is not.
1. Later authors knew earlier prophesies and fabricated stories to match those prophesies.
2. Some persons knew earlier prophesies and acted in such a way to match them. (Self-fulfilling prophesy)
3. Most prophesies are vague, ambiguous, or imprecise. Rarely do they predict who, what, when, where, why, and how.
4. Some prophets may have just been good historians or sociologists who are correct in their predictions at a higher rate than lay persons.
5. Lucky guesses.
6. True positives are cherry-picked and false positives are ignored.
7. Metaphorical, figurative, or other non-literal writing is mistakenly interpreted as a prediction of the future.
BA: “Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms”—Luke 24:44 NIV
GW: Nothing was specifically written about Jesus in the OT. Most prophesies are vague, ambiguous, or imprecise. Rarely do they predict who, what, when, where, why, and how.
BA: Critics claim that Jesus was just an ordinary man, and that predictive prophecy is impossible, and therefore deny that Jesus fulfilled any Old Testament prophecies.
GW: Oh, Jesus was not an “ordinary man,” he was an unusual man with great assets and liabilities. No human person can reliably make precise predictions about specific future events. Since God does not exist, any man attempting such predictions does not have any divine help, inspiration, or dictation. If any OT prophesy appears to apply to Jesus is almost certainly do to one of the seven factors I listed above.
BA: Since there are so many prophecies that Jesus actually fulfilled, critics resort to claiming that the prophecies in the Old Testament were written after the fact, so as to conform to what happened to Jesus, and also that the New Testament recordings of these fulfillments are frauds, that is, written to conform to Old Testament predictions.
GW: So many prophesies were not fulfilled through Jesus. Yes, for some prophesies. l+ater authors knew earlier prophesies and fabricated stories to match those prophesies.
BA: However, these assertions by skeptics and critics are proven false by the facts.
GW: The burden of proof is on you.
BA: Some manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls are independently dated to before Jesus was even born. What happened to Jesus’ regarding his birth, mistreatment, execution, and death was beyond his control.
GW: Absolutely false. Jesus would have known that if he behaved and spoke in certain radical ways in Jerusalem that he would have been mistreated, executed, and died, and so he did those things. He desire to be a martyr. It was “suicide by cop.”
BA: If there were only one or two such fulfillments, the case for these prophecies may not be as strong, but with the huge number of fulfilled prophecies in the one man Jesus, and they being beyond his control, and with extant manuscript copies dated prior to his birth, the critics claims are vanquished! There is abundant evidence of the details of Jesus in the Dead Sea Scrolls!
GW: Pure nonsense.
GW: Here are some prophesies that were falsified:
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 NIV
34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Matthew 24:34, NIV
30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Mark 13:30, NIV
32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Luke 21:32, NIV
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28, NIV
9 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” Mark 9:1, NIV
27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:27, NIV
GW: If God did exist and if wished to prove his existence and his powers, then he might make prophesies to all human persons, and they would ALL come to pass. He would never allow or facilitate human beings to make prophesies for him. And so, we know that any prophesies in the Bible did not come from God. Case closed.
GW: Here are some prophesies that were falsified:
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 NIV
BA—Here’s both the prophecy and the fulfillment:
“Therefore Yahweh himself will give you a sign, Behold, the virgin will conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Jesus”—Isaiah 7:14 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—[Matthew 1:18-23; Luke 1:30-35]
GW—32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Luke 21:32, NIV
BA—Explanation:
“The term “this generation” has been the subject of much debate. In the immediate context, it could refer to the people living at the time of Jesus, suggesting that some of the events He described would occur within their lifetime. Historically, this aligns with the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in AD 70.”—-Bible Hub Study Bible
GW—28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28, NIV
9 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” Mark 9:1, NIV
27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:27, NIV
BA—The Transfiguration recorded in the synoptics gave an advance view of Christ and his kingdom.
GW: Here are some prophesies that were falsified:
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 NIV
BA—Here’s both the prophecy and the fulfillment:
“Therefore Yahweh himself will give you a sign, Behold, the virgin will conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Jesus”—Isaiah 7:14 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—[Matthew 1:18-23; Luke 1:30-35]
GW: False. The name predicted was “Immanuel” not “Jesus.” The prophesy failed.
GW—32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Luke 21:32, NIV
BA—Explanation:
“The term “this generation” has been the subject of much debate. In the immediate context, it could refer to the people living at the time of Jesus, suggesting that some of the events He described would occur within their lifetime. Historically, this aligns with the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in AD 70.”—-Bible Hub Study Bible
GW: The most common meaning of “generation” is a cohort of people living simultaneously during about a 20 year period. Jesus did not die and return during the period of 20 years after he delivered the prophesy. So, the prophesy failed.
GW—28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28, NIV
9 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” Mark 9:1, NIV
27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:27, NIV
BA—The Transfiguration recorded in the synoptics gave an advance view of Christ and his kingdom.
GW: The transfiguration is irrelevant to the identified prophesy which failed.
GW: Six Hypotheses About Jesus: 9-8-2025
1. Jesus never existed, as a human person, a deity, or any other kind of person.
2. Jesus was a human person, having no supernatural powers.
3. Jesus was a human person to which supernatural powers had been delegated or assigned.
4. Jesus was a deity, temporarily in human form, one among many deities, but not the supreme deity.
5. Jesus was a deity, temporarily in human form, one among many deities AND the supreme one.
6. Jesus was a deity, temporarily in human form, the only deity, i.e. Jesus was God himself.
I think both the evidence and Occam’s Razor weighs in favor of hypothesis #2. But which of these six do you support and promote? (Donald, you may chime in here, if you’d like.)
-BA—Here’s both the prophecy and the fulfillment:
“Therefore Yahweh himself will give you a sign, Behold, the virgin will conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Jesus”—Isaiah 7:14 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—[Matthew 1:18-23; Luke 1:30-35]
GW: False. The name predicted was “Immanuel” not “Jesus.” The prophesy failed.
BA—False. It was precisely fulfilled, as follows:
“‘She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.’ All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”). When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus”—Matthew 1:22-25 NIV
BA—Explanation:
“The term “this generation” has been the subject of much debate. In the immediate context, it could refer to the people living at the time of Jesus, suggesting that some of the events He described would occur within their lifetime. Historically, this aligns with the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in AD 70.”—-Bible Hub Study Bible
GW: The most common meaning of “generation” is a cohort of people living simultaneously during about a 20 year period. Jesus did not die and return during the period of 20 years after he delivered the prophesy. So, the prophesy failed.
BA—“Generation” has also been defined as a 40 year period.
Jerusalem was destroyed within 40 years of Jesus’ prophecy.
BA—The Transfiguration recorded in the synoptics gave an advance view of Christ and his kingdom.
GW: The transfiguration is irrelevant to the identified prophesy which failed.
BA—No, it’s completely relevant.
BA—Here’s both the prophecy and the fulfillment:
“Therefore Yahweh himself will give you a sign, Behold, the virgin will conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Jesus”—Isaiah 7:14 (1QISa, about 125 BCE)—[Matthew 1:18-23; Luke 1:30-35]
GW: False. The name predicted was “Immanuel” not “Jesus.” The prophesy failed.
BA—False. It was precisely fulfilled, as follows:
“‘She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.’ All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”). When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus”—Matthew 1:22-25 NIV
GW: You are missing the point. Any name is NOT the same as the meaning of the name. The prediction was that the name would be “Immanuel” not “Jesus.” And so, the prediction failed.
GW: In addition, this is what Google says about the meaning of the name “Jesus”: “The name Jesus means “God saves” or “the Lord is salvation”. It is the Hellenized (Greek) form of the Hebrew name Yehoshua (which was shortened to Yeshua), a name composed of the Hebrew divine name “Yahweh” and the verb “yasha,” meaning “to save” or “to rescue”. The name directly communicates Jesus’s purpose as the Savior of humanity from their sins, as confirmed in the Gospel of Matthew. “ So you see: the meaning of “Immanuel” is not the same as the meaning of “Jesus.” The prophesy failed. Confirmation.
BA—Explanation:
“The term “this generation” has been the subject of much debate. In the immediate context, it could refer to the people living at the time of Jesus, suggesting that some of the events He described would occur within their lifetime. Historically, this aligns with the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in AD 70.”—-Bible Hub Study Bible
GW: The most common meaning of “generation” is a cohort of people living simultaneously during about a 20 year period. Jesus did not die and return during the period of 20 years after he delivered the prophesy. So, the prophesy failed.
BA—“Generation” has also been defined as a 40 year period.
Jerusalem was destroyed within 40 years of Jesus’ prophecy.
GW: A 40 year period is almost never considered to be a “generation.” You are grasping at straws. If anything, a generation could be as little as 12 years since a girl can bear children at the age of 12. (Most experts say that Mary was a teenager when she gave birth to Jesus.)
BA—The Transfiguration recorded in the synoptics gave an advance view of Christ and his kingdom.
GW: The transfiguration is irrelevant to the identified prophesy which failed.
BA—No, it’s completely relevant.
GW: No, it is irrelevant. We are talking about the second coming of Jesus, not any transfiguration.
GW: Also, you must remember that if God did exist, he would do his own work, not employ assistants to do it for him. He would do his own communications, miracles, rewarding, punishing, and prophesies (which would be miracles too). He would not make prophesies through prophets. So, all the prophesies tabulated in the Bible were not from God. Case closed.
God wins!!! (Revelation 19-21).
God would win, if he did exist, but he doesn’t. We now know and have proven that God does not exist. I showed you how two biblical prophesies failed, and all you can say is “God wins”? That is pathetic.
Six Hypotheses About Jesus: 9-8-2025
1. Jesus never existed, as a human person, a deity, or any other kind of person.
2. Jesus was a human person, having no supernatural powers.
3. Jesus was a human person to which supernatural powers had been delegated or assigned.
4. Jesus was a deity, temporarily in human form, one among many deities, but not the supreme deity.
5. Jesus was a deity, temporarily in human form, one among many deities AND the supreme one.
6. Jesus was a deity, temporarily in human form, the only deity, i.e. Jesus was God himself.
I think both the evidence and Occam’s Razor weighs in favor of hypothesis #2. But which of these six do you support and promote?
Why are you ignoring this question?
“From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible”—-Revelation 16:21 NIV
You may be experiencing and fulfilling this prophecy now.
“Despite the clear demonstration of divine power, the response of the people is one of blasphemy rather than repentance. This reaction highlights the hardness of human hearts and the persistent rebellion against God, even in the face of undeniable evidence of His might. This mirrors the response of Pharaoh during the plagues of Egypt, where his heart was hardened despite witnessing God’s power (Exodus 9:34-35). The phrase underscores the theme of judgment throughout Revelation, where humanity’s refusal to repent leads to further divine retribution. It also serves as a warning of the consequences of rejecting God’s authority, as seen in Romans 1:18-32, where God’s wrath is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness.”—Bible Hub Study Bible
BA: “From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible”—-Revelation 16:21 NIV
GW: This is irrelevant to what we have been talking about.
BA: You may be experiencing and fulfilling this prophecy now.
GW: Nonsense!
BA: “Despite the clear demonstration of divine power, the response of the people is one of blasphemy rather than repentance.
GW: This is false. There is no “clear demonstration of divine power.” In fact, God does not exist! Now in the 21st century we know and have proven this. If God did exist, indeed he would make a clear demonstration of his power. When and where? Regularly, at least every seven years, and everywhere on the Earth. He would meet simultaneously with ALL living persons and he would perform miracles on request from the audience to provide that “clear demonstration of divine power.” But sad to say, this has NEVER HAPPENED! This is one way we know that God does not exist.
BA: This reaction highlights the hardness of human hearts and the persistent rebellion against God, even in the face of undeniable evidence of His might.
GW: False in all respects! Our hearts are not hardened. Our minds are open. We are receptive to clear evidence of God. In fact, if God did exist he would PROVE his own existence to us. We wouldn’t need to ask him for that. He would provide it voluntarily. We cannot and do not rebel against a nonexistent person. That is impossible. We rebel against those who hold to their falsehoods, delusions, superstitions, and lies that God exists.
BA: This mirrors the response of Pharaoh during the plagues of Egypt, where his heart was hardened despite witnessing God’s power (Exodus 9:34-35).
GW: God did not present himself to Pharaoh and demonstrate his power through speech and miracles. Read the text. You are misinterpreting it. Besides, if God did any communication it would not just be to the Pharaoh and his minions, it would be to all living persons AT THE SAME TIME. Duh. God COULD, WOULD, AND SHOULD DO THIS, if he did exist.
BA: The phrase underscores the theme of judgment throughout Revelation, where humanity’s refusal to repent leads to further divine retribution.
GW: If God did exist, repentance, apologies, and begging would have no bearing on God’s judgement and punishment. He would implement perfect justice, and all would be held accountable. There would be no forgiveness, mercy, atonement, probation, or parole. God would understand the psychology of teaching and punishment and do these things in the MOST effective, efficient, and ethical way.
BA: It also serves as a warning of the consequences of rejecting God’s authority, as seen in Romans 1:18-32, where God’s wrath is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness.”—Bible Hub Study Bible
GW: I neither reject nor accept the authority of a nonexistent person. I do reject your authority.
GW: Let’s get back on track. Consider these six hypotheses about Jesus:
1. Jesus never existed, as a human person, a deity, or any other kind of person.
2. Jesus was a human person, having no supernatural powers.
3. Jesus was a human person to which supernatural powers had been delegated or assigned.
4. Jesus was a deity, temporarily in human form, one among many deities, but not the supreme deity.
5. Jesus was a deity, temporarily in human form, one among many deities AND the supreme one.
6. Jesus was a deity, temporarily in human form, the only deity, i.e. Jesus was God himself.
I think both the evidence and Occam’s Razor weighs in favor of hypothesis #2. But which of these six do you support and promote? (Donald, you may chime in here, if you’d like.)
Matthew 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Jesus is saying He is God.
No, Jesus is saying he’s not God.
Matthew 4:5-7 – “The devil took him to the highest point of the temple. ‘If you are the Son of God,’ he said, ‘throw yourself down. For it is written: “He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.”‘ Jesus answered him, ‘It is written: Do not put the Lord your God to the test'” (NIV). The issue raised by Satan the Devil was, “If you are the Son of God”, not “If you are God,” (Matthew 4:3,5), not “if you are part of a Trinity”. Also, Jesus rebuked Satan by saying, “YOU SHALL NOT PUT YAHWEH YOUR GOD TO THE TEST” (Matthew 4:7 LSB). He would not put Yahweh his God to the test, which proves he’s not Yahweh God.