Is the Trinity In Genesis?

Is the Trinity In Genesis?

 
God looked over all that He had made, and it was excellent in every way. This ended the sixth day. On the seventh day God rested. God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, because it was when He ceased His work of creation. – Slide 22
 

“The doctrine of the Trinity is embedded in the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation” (The Master’s Seminary Blog). With such a bold statement as this, we would surely expect the Trinity to be in Genesis, the first book of the Bible. Is the Trinity in Genesis? 

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). “Let us make mankind in our own image” (Genesis 1:26 NIV). The Hebrew word “Elohim” is translated “God,” which is the plural of “El,” so it is asserted that “Elohim” stands for the Trinity. In other words, it is claimed that “the Trinity created the heavens and the earth,” and “the Trinity spoke to itself (“us”) about creating humans.” Since, however, the Hebrew “Elohim” is also used for excellence or majesty, and, in the Bible, often is used for the Almighty God, Yahweh. Even the singular pagan god Dagon is described as “Dagon our god [Elohim]” (1 Samuel 5:7). So the use of “Elohim” does not guarantee that the “God” referred to is plural. The Biblical Almighty God is a singular God, according to the Bible. Notice: “Yahweh is our God. Yahweh in one!” (Deuteronomy 6:4 LSB).  The Hebrew word for “one” used here is “echad”, the numeral “one”. Jesus quoted this by saying, “YAHWEH OUR GOD IS ONE YAHWEH” (Mark 12:29 LSB margin). The Greek word for “one” used here is “heis”, the numeral “one”. “God is only one” (Galatians 3:20 NASB). “There is no God but one . . . for us there is but one God” (1 Corinthians 8:4,6). Even if “Elohim” had been used in its plural sense in Genesis 1:1,26, there is nothing to indicate a threesome. Thus, Trinitarians simply imagine the Triune God right into the text Genesis 1:1,26. and never stop to really think it through. There isn’t even one single aspect of the Trinity dogma in this context, i.e., nothing about three being God, or Almighty, or eternal, or equal, or of three being of one “substance”, “essence”, or “being”, etc. There’s simply nothing in the text to even hint at three of anything.

“So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them” (Genesis 1:27 NIV). Notice that the personal pronoun used to describe God, “he” (twice) is in the singular, not in the plural. If the God in Genesis 1:26 was “three persons in one being”, as Trinitarians claim, the personal pronoun would be in the plural, i.e.,”they”. Jesus own words confirm that “God”  in Genesis 1:26 is the “one” singular ” “God” “Yahweh”: “He who created them in the beginning made them male and female” (Matthew 19:4 HCSB). Jesus describes “God” by the singular personal pronoun “He”.

Who is God speaking to in Genesis 1:26? God is recording as speaking to Jesus, his Son. How do we know this? “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made . . . the world came to be through him” (John 1:3,10 NIV). Almighty God the Father created everything “through” Jesus, which indicates that Jesus is not the creator, but is “God’s agent in the creation of all things” (NAB note on Colossians 1:16). “Through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth . . . Everything was created through him and for him” (Colossians 1:16 NLT). Jesus is neither the originator, nor the Creator. Almighty God is, but notice that he created everything “through” Jesus. “Through the Son he created the universe” (Hebrews 1:2 NLT). Thus, while God speaks to Jesus in Genesis 1:26, and from the New Testament we know that God creates the universe through Jesus in Genesis 1:1, Jesus is never presented as a member of any Trinity. So, at this very famous beginning to the Bible, we don’t find any evidence to support the Trinity.

Genesis 1:2 – “The earth was a vast waste, darkness covered the deep, and the spirit of God hovered over the water” (REB). Trinitarians claim the holy Spirit is a person, the 3rd person of their Trinity. However, according to the scriptures, “the holy Spirit” (Luke 12:12 NAB) is “the Spirit of your Father” (Matthew 10:20), “God’s own Spirit”, “God’s Spirit” (1 Corinthians 2:11,12 NLT), not a person. In fact, further scriptural evidence the holy Spirit is not a person is the fact that the Hebrew word that is translated as “spirit” in Genesis 1:2 is “ruach”, which is also accurately rendered as “mighty wind” at Genesis 1:2 (NAB).

Genesis 2:24  – “For this reason, a man shall leave behind his father and mother, and he shall cling to his wife; and the two shall be as one flesh (Catholic Public Domain Version). Trinitarians try to use this scripture in their attempt to overcome the scriptural difficulty that Yahweh God the Father “is only one” (Hebrew, “echad”, the numeral one; Deuteronomy 6:4 LSB; also see the Greek equivalent “heis” (“one”) at Galatians 3:20 NASB; Mark 12:29,30; Romans 3:30; James 2:19), rather than their 3-in-1 Triune God, by asserting that “one” can mean a “compound unity”. However, “one” “echad” in Genesis 2:24 means “one flesh”, not “two fleshes”. Many examples could be cited, but let’s just take one: “They cut off a branch bearing a single [“echad“]cluster of grapes” (Numbers 13:23 NIV). This one cluster obviously had many grapes. But “one” applies to the word “cluster”, meaning “one cluster”. The Trinitarian imaginary “compound unity” of “one” is shown to be unscriptural.

Genesis 5:24; 6:9 – “Enoch walked with God”. “Noah walked with God”. Some Trinitarians, in their attempt to justify their “God-man” dogma about Jesus, have asserted that these scriptures mean Almighty God was literally, visibly walking on earth with these godly men. However, the scriptures don’t actually say that God himself was on earth. Walking with God is an idiom of speech signifying a good relationship with him. For example, “What does Yahweh require of you But to do justice, to love lovingkindness, And to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8 LSB).

Walking with God indicates a close, personal relationship with the Creator, characterized by faith and obedience. This phrase is also used to describe Enoch in Genesis 5:24, suggesting a continuity of faithful individuals amidst a fallen world. Walking with God implies ongoing fellowship and alignment with His will, a theme that resonates throughout Scripture, as seen in Micah 6:8, which calls for walking humbly with God. Noah’s walk with God prefigures the life of Jesus Christ, who perfectly walked in obedience to the Father.”—-Bible Hub Study Bible note on Genesis 6:9

Since “No one has ever seen God” (John 1:18 NIV; 1 John 4:12 NIV), the ‘walking with God’ is a figure of speech, not literal.

Genesis 10:15; 49:3 – “Canaan was the father of Sidon, his firstborn”. “Reuben, you are my firstborn; My might and the beginning of my vigor” (LSB). These scriptures don’t mention anything about God, so why are they included in this article? “Firstborn” is used 20 times in Genesis, and just as we would expect, every time it means one who is ‘born first’. As Jacob said, Reuben was his “firstborn” child, “the beginning” of his offspring. Trinitarians, however, often claim that “firstborn”, as it applies to Jesus in Colossians 1:15, is different, not meaning one who is ‘born first’, but one who is preeminent, or supreme. Rather than the true reading of Colossians 1:15: “The firstborn of all creation”  (ESV; LSB), modern Trinitarian tinged translations render it, “the firstborn over all creation” (NIV).

Genesis 16:7,9,10,13 – “The angel of Yahweh found her . . . Then the angel of Yahweh said to her . . . Then she called the name of Yahweh who spoke to her, ‘You are a God who sees,’ for she said, ‘Have I even remained alive after seeing Him?'” (LSB). Four times in Genesis 16, an “angel” is called “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7,9,10,11 NJB), and some Trinitarians have asserted this is Jesus, whom they claim is the “second person of the Trinity”. However, the scriptures never mention any “second person of the Trinity”, nor do they say that Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh.” Hebrews 1:4-14 makes very clear that Jesus is not an angel, but is “much superior to the angels”.  Since lots of people saw Jesus, when he was on earth, attempting to overcome the scriptural truth that, “No one has ever seen God” (John 1:18 NIV; 1 John 4:12 NIV), Trinitarians have used Genesis 16 to try to support their dogma that Jesus is God. However, “the Scriptures cannot be altered” (John 10:35 NLT). They are authored by the “God, who does not lie” (Titus 1:2 NIV), and have no contradictions. It was an “angel” representing Yahweh that Hagar saw, not Jesus, who appeared to Hagar in Genesis 16.

Genesis 17:1,22 – “When Abraham was ninety-nine years old, Yahweh appeared to Abram and said to him, ‘I am God Almighty’ . . . So He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham” (LSB). This is yet another scripture that Trinitarians have sometimes used in their dogma that Jesus is “God-man”, by claiming that Almighty God himself literally came to earth to talk to Abraham. However, this account is very similar to the one in Genesis 15: “The word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision” (Genesis 15:1 LSB). It’s good to keep in mind that, “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and IN VARIOUS WAYS” (Hebrews 1:1 NIV). (Emphasis ours) One of these “various ways” was through visions. We must always consider the context of the entire Bible when trying to understand it. One key Biblical principle is, “Yahweh said, ‘ . . . no human being can see me and survive'” (Exodus 33:20 NJB).

Genesis 18:1,2 – “Then Yahweh appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre  . . . and behold, three men were standing nearby” (LSB). Trinitarians unabashedly assert that the “Yahweh” spoken of here is their “God the Son” Jesus.“Who walked with Abraham by the oaks of Mamre? None other than the preincarnate Jesus Christ, the eternal Logos” (The Forgotten Trinity, page 61). The “men” who visited Abraham were actually materialized “angels”. How do we know this? Hebrews 13:2 confirms this, making reference to this incident by saying that “some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it” (NIV). In reality, however, it was one of these angels who represented Yahweh. “While the men left there and went to Sodom, Yahweh remained in Abraham’s presence . . . When he had finished talking to Abraham Yahweh went away . . . When the two angels reached Sodom in the evening . . . ” (Genesis 18:22,33; 19:1 NJB). This is a clear indication that two of the “men” were “angels”, and since “no one has ever seen God” (John 1:18 NIV; 1 John 4:12 NIV), we know the the third one was an angel as well.

Genesis 19:24 – “Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven” (LSB). Trinitarians have sometimes claimed that the two mentions of “Yahweh” in this verse mean there is a Yahweh in heaven, which is the Father, and there is another Yahweh on earth, who is the Son, Jesus. However, neither the verse, nor the context, say anything about Jesus. Not being restrained by the scriptural facts, Trinitarians just simply imagine Jesus right into the text here. While this verse does have two references to the name Yahweh (the LORD), it does not say that there are two Yahwehs, or two LORD’s.  Serious Bible students should shudder at the thought of there being more than one Yahweh.  The Scriptures themselves make this impossible: “You alone are Yahweh” (Nehemiah 9:6 LSB), “Yahweh is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4 LSB), “He is One, and  there is no one else besides him” (Mark 12.32" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference">Mark 12:32 ESV). “Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him” (Deuteronomy 4:35 LSB), and so on. Genesis 19:24 is an example of Hebrew idiomatic prose, that is not to be taken entirely literally.  The syntax here is simply saying that Yahweh rained down fire from himself, the very same Yahweh.  What we are encountering here is simply a nuance of the ancient Hebrew language. Notice some other examples of how the Hebrew idiom is used in the scriptures: “Abraham took . . .  every male among the men of Abraham’s household” (Gen 17.23" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference">Genesis 17:23 LSB). Here Abraham took men from Abraham, that is, his own household. But there are not two Abrahams.“Then Solomon assembled . . . to King Solomon(1 Kings 8.1" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference">1 Kings 8:1 LSB). Solomon had people assembled before him. But there are not two Solomons.“Then Rehoboam came to Jerusalem and assembled all the house of Judah . . .  to return the kingdom to Rehoboam” (1 Kings 12.21" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference">1 Kings 12:21 LSB). Rehoboam assembled the fighting men of Judah to himself to stop the secession of the 10 northern tribes. But there are not two Rehoboams.

Gen 17.23" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference">Genesis 32:24,30 – “Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him . . . He said, ‘ . . . you have striven with God and men’ . . . Jacob . . .  said, ‘I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been delivered'” (LSB). In their attempt to justify their claims that Jesus was God in the flesh on earth, Trinitarians assert that the reference to “God” wrestling with Jacob, means that it was Almighty God himself who wrestled with Jacob. However, when we consider the context of the entire Bible, we find that this is not the case. This incident its used as an example by God’s inspired prophet Hosea. “He struggled with the angel and overcame him” (Hosea 12:4 NIV). The “angel” was not God, but he represented God. The scriptures throughout the entire Bible are very clear that no one has ever seen God. For example: “No one has ever seen God” (John 1:18 NIV; 1 John 4:12 NIV).

Genesis 35:1,9,13 – “God appeared to Jacob again when he came from Paddan-aram . . . God also said to Him, ‘I am God Almighty’ . . . Then God went up from him in the place where He had spoken with him” (LSB). This is yet another account that Trinitarians have used to claim that God was literally visible on earth, in their attempt to claim that Jesus Christ was “God-man” on earth. By looking carefully at the context, we can see that “God appeared”, that is, in a vision. How can we be so sure? “The invisible God” (Colossians 1:15 NIV), has always been “invisible”, and says,  “I, Yahweh, do not change” (Malachi 3:6 NJB). It’s good to keep in mind that, “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and IN VARIOUS WAYS” (Hebrews 1:1 NIV), such as visions. This account is very similar to the one in Genesis 15: “The word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision” (Genesis 15:1 LSB).

Is the Trinity in Genesis? Despite the bold claims of many preachers and theologians that the Trinity is in Genesis, an objective analysis of relevant scriptures in the book of Genesis reveals that the Trinity is not in Genesis>

One thought on “Is the Trinity In Genesis?

  1. BA1: “The doctrine of the Trinity is embedded in the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation” (The Master’s Seminary Blog). With such a bold statement as this, we would surely expect the Trinity to be in Genesis, the first book of the Bible. Is the Trinity in Genesis?

    GW: Of course we would expect it to be there, if God did exist.

    BA1: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).

    GW: Of course, not even our 21st century experts know if our universe had a beginning, a creation, or a creator, so the author of this first verse in Genesis could not and did not know. Furthermore, we now know and have proven that God does not exist. Even I have devised several proofs of this.

    BA1: “Let us make mankind in our own image” (Genesis 1:26 NIV).

    GW1: Here “image” does not refer to a physical form. It probably refers to a conscious intelligent agency.

    BA1: The Hebrew word “Elohim” is translated “God,” which is the plural of “El,” so it is asserted that “Elohim” stands for the Trinity. In other words, it is claimed that “the Trinity created the heavens and the earth,” and “the Trinity spoke to itself (“us”) about creating humans.” Since However, the Hebrew “Elohim” is also used for excellence or majesty, and, in the Bible, often is used for the Almighty God, Yahweh. Even the singular pagan god Dagon is described as “Dagon our god [Elohim]” (1 Samuel 5:7). The Biblical Almighty God is a singular God, according to the Bible. Notice:”Our God YHWH–YHWH is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4 LSV). Jesus quoted this by saying, “THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD” (Mark 12:29 NASB). “God is only one” (Galatians 3:20 NASB). “There is no God but one . . . for us there is but one God” (1 Corinthians 8:4,6). Even if “Elohim” was used in its plural sense in Genesis 1:1, there is nothing to indicate a threesome.

    GW1: I agree with your analysis here. If God did exist, he would have created EVERYTHING other than himself. (No thing can create itself, not even God, if he did exist.) And if he did exist, God would not choose to create any other deities! So, there would be no other deities. God would have no need or desire for assistants, opponents, or rivals. So Jesus could not be a deity and the Holy Spirit could not be a deity. There would be no deities besides God, if he did exist. So, the Trinity is a bust.

    BA1: Thus, Trinitarians simply imagine the Triune God right into the text Genesis 1:1,26. and never stop to really think it through. There isn’t even one single aspect of the Trinity dogma in this context, i.e., nothing about three being God, or Almighty, or eternal, or equal, or of three being of one “substance”, “essence”, or “being”, etc. There’s simply nothing in the text to even hint at three of anything. Who is God speaking to in Genesis 1:26?

    GW1: Didn’t the Council of Nicea invent the Trinity? Support of the Trinity either from the Bible or from Reason itself is lacking.

    BA1: God is recording [recorded] as speaking to Jesus, his Son. “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made . . . the world came to be through him” (John 1:3,10 NIV).

    GW1: No. God would create EVERYTHING ELSE directly, not through anyone. After all, he would be all powerful. He wouldn’t need to use intermediaries. John is just wrong.

    BA1: Almighty God the Father created everything “through” Jesus, which indicates that Jesus is not the creator, but is “God’s agent in the creation of all things” (NAB note on Colossians 1:16).

    GW1: No. God would not use agents or intermediaries or helpmates.

    BA1: “Through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth . . . Everything was created through him and for him” (Colossians 1:16 NLT). Jesus is neither the originator, nor the Creator. Almighty God is, but notice that he created everything “through” Jesus. “Through the Son he created the universe” (Hebrews 1:2 NLT). Thus, while God speaks to Jesus in Genesis 1:26, and from the New Testament we know that God creates the universe through Jesus in Genesis 1:1, Jesus is never presented as a member of any Trinity. So, at this very famous beginning to the Bible, we don’t find the Trinity in Genesis.

    GW1: Genesis 1:1 does not say “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth through Jesus Christ.” If that is what happened, then it would be there IN THE FIRST VERSE! But it isn’t! Duh. Again, God would not create any other deities. See above.

    BA1: Genesis 1:2 – “The earth was a vast waste, darkness covered the deep, and the spirit of God hovered over the water” (REB). Trinitarians claim the holy Spirit is a person, the 3rd person of their Trinity. However, according to the scriptures, “the holy Spirit” (Luke 12:12 NAB) is “the Spirit of your Father” (Matthew 10:20), “God’s own Spirit”, “God’s Spirit” (1 Corinthians 2:11,12 NLT), not a person. In fact, further scriptural evidence the holy Spirit is not a person is the fact that the Hebrew word that is translated as “spirit” in Genesis 1:2 is “ruach”, which is also accurately rendered as “mighty wind” at Genesis 1:2 (NAB).

    GW1: This is still debated among theologians. My stance is that if God did exist, he would not have created any deities, angels, demons, or supernatural entities, period. So, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ cannot and are not deities of any kind. There is no Trinity.

    BA1: Genesis 2:24 – “For this reason, a man shall leave behind his father and mother, and he shall cling to his wife; and the two shall be as one flesh (Catholic Public Domain Version). Trinitarians try to use this scripture in their attempt to overcome the scriptural difficulty that Yahweh God the Father “is only one” (Hebrew, “echad”, the numeral one; Deuteronomy 6:4 LSB; also see the Greek equivalent “heis” (“one”) at Galatians 3:20 NASB; Mark 12:29,30; Romans 3:30; James 2:19), rather than their 3-in-1 Triune God, by asserting that “one” can mean a “compound unity”. However, “one” “echad” in Genesis 2:24 means “one flesh”, not “two fleshes”. Many examples could be cited, but let’s just take one: “They cut off a branch bearing a single [“echad”]cluster of grapes” (Numbers 13:23 NIV). This one cluster obviously had many grapes. But “one” applies to the word “cluster”, meaning “one cluster”. The Trinitarian imaginary “compound unity” of “one” is shown to be unscriptural.

    GW1: God would be a single deity and the only deity, period! See above for my reasoning on this. At most, Jesus would be a human person to whom God temporarily assigned or delegated supernatural powers and authority. But even that could not be true since God would do all his own work. He would not delegate.

    BA1: Genesis 5:24; 6:9 – “Enoch walked with God”. “Noah walked with God”. Some Trinitarians, in their attempt to justify their “God-man” dogma about Jesus, have asserted that these scriptures mean Almighty God was literally, visibly walking on earth with these godly men. However, the scriptures don’t actually say that God himself was on earth..

    GW1: Some verses do. Read the stories of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel. Read the story of Moses on Mt. Sinai.

    BA1: Walking with God is an idiom of speech signifying a good relationship with him.

    GW1: It could be figurative, but it could be literal. There is even one story of “wrestling with God.”

    BA1: For example, “What does Yahweh require of you But to do justice, to love lovingkindness, And to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8 LSB). Since “No one has ever seen God” (John 1:18 NIV; 1 John 4:12 NIV), the ‘walking with God’ is a figure of speech, not literal.

    GW1: If somebody saw God, what would they see? Didn’t Jesus see God? Didn’t Moses see God? However, if God did exist, then ALL LIVING PERSONS would see God temporarily presenting himself in human form. This has never happened. Therefore, God does not exist!

    BA1: Genesis 10:15; 49:3 – “Canaan was the father of Sidon, his firstborn”. “Reuben, you are my firstborn; My might and the beginning of my vigor” (LSB). These scriptures don’t mention anything about God, so why are they included in this article? “Firstborn” is used 20 times in Genesis, and just as we would expect, every time it means one who is ‘born first’. As Jacob said, Reuben was his “firstborn” child, “the beginning” of his offspring. Trinitarians, however, often claim that “firstborn”, as it applies to Jesus in Colossians 1:15, is different, not meaning one who is ‘born first’, but one who is preeminent, or supreme. Rather than the true reading of Colossians 1:15: “The firstborn of all creation” (ESV; LSB), modern Trinitarian tinged translations render it, “the firstborn over all creation” (NIV).

    GW1: Jesus was just a man. He was the son of Mary and some unknown, unnamed human father. Jesus was not a deity. God would not create any deities, if he did exist.

    BA1: Genesis 16:7,9,10,13 – “The angel of Yahweh found her . . . Then the angel of Yahweh said to her . . . Then she called the name of Yahweh who spoke to her, ‘You are a God who sees,’ for she said, ‘Have I even remained alive after seeing Him?'” (LSB). Four times in Genesis 16, an angel is called “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7,9,10,11 NJB), and some Trinitarians have asserted this is Jesus, whom they claim is the “second person of the Trinity”. However, the scriptures never mention any “second person of the Trinity”, nor do they say that Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh.” Since lots of people saw Jesus, when he was on earth, attempting to overcome the scriptural truth that, “No one has ever seen God” (John 1:18 NIV; 1 John 4:12 NIV), Trinitarians have used Genesis 16 to try to support their dogma that Jesus is God. However, “the Scriptures cannot be altered” (John 10:35 NLT). They are authored by the “God, who does not lie” (Titus 1:2 NIV), and have no contradictions. It was an angel representing Yahweh, not Jesus, who appeared to Hagar in Genesis 16.

    GW1: It is ridiculous to claim that Jesus was an angel. If God did exist, he would not create other deities or angels or demons. Jesus was neither a deity nor an angel. He was just a man. However, I think he believed he was delegated supernatural authority and powers from God.

    BA1: Genesis 17:1,22 – “When Abraham was ninety-nine years old, Yahweh appeared to Abram and said to him, ‘I am God Almighty’ . . . So He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham” (LSB).

    GW1: If God appeared to Abram, then Abram saw God. This verse contradicts your claim that nobody ever saw God.

    BA1: This is yet another scripture that Trinitarians have sometimes used in their dogma that Jesus is “God-man”, by claiming that Almighty God himself literally came to earth to talk to Abraham.

    GW1: “God-man”? What a ridiculous idea! There are six legitimate hypotheses about Jesus:
    1. Jesus never existed, as a human person, a deity, or any other kind of person.
    2. Jesus was a human person, having no supernatural powers.
    3. Jesus was a human person to which supernatural powers had been delegated or assigned.
    4. Jesus was a deity, temporarily in human form, one among many deities, but not the supreme deity.
    5. Jesus was a deity, temporarily in human form, one among many deities AND the supreme one.
    6. Jesus was a deity, temporarily in human form, the only deity, i.e. Jesus was God himself.
    I think both the evidence and Occam’s Razor weighs in favor of hypothesis #2. But which of these six do you support and promote?

    BA1: However, this account is very similar to the one in Genesis 15: “The word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision” (Genesis 15:1 LSB). It’s good to keep in mind that, “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and IN VARIOUS WAYS” (Hebrews 1:1 NIV). (Emphasis ours) One of these “various ways” was through visions. We must always consider the context of the entire Bible when trying to understand it.

    GW1: No, no, no! If God did exist, he would NEVER speak to individuals through visions. Instead, he would regularly speak to ALL LIVING PERSONS SIMULTANEOULSY!

    BA1: One key Biblical principle is, “Yahweh said, ‘ . . . no human being can see me and survive'” (Exodus 33:20 NJB).

    GW1: On this point, the Bible contradicts itself. In addition, the verse is false anyway. If God did exist, all human beings would see him and they would all survive. It is irrational to think that God would destroy people to whom he was directly communicating. God would appear in a human form which would be comforting, not scary or dangerous.

    BA1: Genesis 18:1,2 – “Then Yahweh appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre . . . and behold, three men were standing nearby” (LSB). Trinitarians unabashedly assert that the “Yahweh” spoken of here is their “God the Son” Jesus.”Who walked with Abraham by the oaks of Mamre? None other than the preincarnate Jesus Christ, the eternal Logos” (The Forgotten Trinity, page 61). The “men” who visited Abraham were actually materialized “angels”. How do we know this? Hebrews 13:2 confirms this, making reference to this incident by saying that “some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it” (NIV). In reality, however, it was one of these angels who represented Yahweh. “While the men left there and went to Sodom, Yahweh remained in Abraham’s presence . . . When he had finished talking to Abraham Yahweh went away . . . When the two angels reached Sodom in the evening . . . ” (Genesis 18:22,33; 19:1 NJB). This is a clear indication that two of the “men” were “angels”, and since “no one has ever seen God” (John 1:18 NIV; 1 John 4:12 NIV), we know the the third one was an angel as well.

    GW1: “Remained in Abraham’s presence”? So, Abraham saw God.

    BA1: Genesis 19:24 – “Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven” (LSB).

    GW1: God would never do this, if he existed. That would be irrational, unjust, and unethical punisment.

    BA1: Trinitarians have sometimes claimed that the two mentions of “Yahweh” in this verse mean there is a Yahweh in heaven, which is the Father, and there is another Yahweh on earth, who is the Son, Jesus. However, neither the verse, nor the context, say anything about Jesus. Not being restrained by the scriptural facts, Trinitarians just simply imagine Jesus right into the text here. While this verse does have two references to the name Yahweh (the LORD), it does not say that there are two Yahwehs, or two LORD’s. Serious Bible students should shudder at the thought of there being more than one Yahweh.

    GW1: I agree with your point here. To think that there are two Yahwehs or two Gods is ludicrous.

    BA1: The Scriptures themselves make this impossible: “You alone are Yahweh” (Nehemiah 9:6 LSB), “Yahweh is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4 LSB), “He is One, and there is no one else besides him” (Mark 12:32 ESV). “Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him” (Deuteronomy 4:35 LSB), and so on. Genesis 19:24 is an example of Hebrew idiomatic prose, that is not to be taken entirely literally.

    GW1: Yes, if we take this literally, and we should, then there are no deities AT ALL, except God, if he existed. So, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit CANNOT be deities. God would have created everything but himself and would not have included other deities in his creation. He would not need or want helpers, opponents, or rivals. We can now bury the Trinity once and for all.

    BA1: Genesis 32:24,30 – “Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him . . . He said, ‘ . . . you have striven with God and men’ . . . Jacob . . . said, ‘I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been delivered'” (LSB).

    GW1: “Face to face”! Did you read that? So, according to the Bible, some human persons SAW God. However, if God did exist, ALL LIVING PERSONS would see God, and it would be AT THE SAME TIME. Duh.

    BA1: In their attempt to justify their claims that Jesus was God in the flesh on earth, Trinitarians assert that the reference to “God” wrestling with Jacob, means that it was Almighty God himself who wrestled with Jacob. However, when we consider the context of the entire Bible, we find that this is not the case. This incident its used as an example by God’s inspired prophet Hosea. “He struggled with the angel and overcame him” (Hosea 12:4 NIV). The “angel” was not God, but he represented God.

    GW1: The verse says “striven with God,” not an “striven with an angel.”

    BA1: The scriptures throughout the entire Bible are very clear that no one has ever seen God. For example: “No one has ever seen God” (John 1:18 NIV; 1 John 4:12 NIV).

    GW1: John is just wrong. In many places the Bible says that human persons saw God.

    BA1: Genesis 35:1,9,13 – “God appeared to Jacob again when he came from Paddan-aram . . . God also said to Him, ‘I am God Almighty’ . . . Then God went up from him in the place where He had spoken with him” (LSB). This is yet another account that Trinitarians have used to claim that God was literally visible on earth, in their attempt to claim that Jesus Christ was “God-man” on earth.

    GW1: You are simply ignoring verses which say that people saw God. If God did exist, everyone would see him.

    BA1: By looking carefully at the context, we can see that “God appeared”, that is, in a vision.

    GW1: “Appeared” has a few meanings. It is ambiguous. People do say things like “President Trump appeared before five thousand persons at the rally in Pennsylvania.” This means he met with them and they saw him, not that they had a vision or hallucination. On the road to Damascus did Saul meet Jesus or have a hallucination of him? Did the disciples meet with the risen Jesus or did they have a grief hallucination? Different interpretations are possible. You are showing too much pride and certainty in your own interpretation.

    BA1: How can we be so sure? “The invisible God” (Colossians 1:15 NIV), has always been “invisible”, and says, “I, Yahweh, do not change” (Malachi 3:6 NJB).

    GW1: If God did exist, he would be a “normally invisible person” because he would be a “spiritual being,” not a material one, but he would “at least occasionally intervene in our universe.” When he would intervene to communicate with human persons, then he would temporarily make himself visible.

    GW1: The Bible authors often make errors in what they think God would be like, what he would do, and what he would not do, if he did exist. Don’t take them so seriously. You and I can come to better conclusions on these things.

    BA1: It’s good to keep in mind that, “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and IN VARIOUS WAYS” (Hebrews 1:1 NIV), such as visions. This account is very similar to the one in Genesis 15: “The word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision” (Genesis 15:1 LSB).

    GW1: No, no, no! God would not use prophets. He would do his own communications. When God communicated with human persons, he would not do it through dreams, visions, or hallucinations. HE WOULD MEET DIRECTLY WITH US!

    BA1: Is the Trinity in Genesis? Despite the bold claims of many preachers and theologians that the Trinity is in Genesis, an objective analysis of relevant scriptures in the book of Genesis reveals that the Trinity is not in Genesis>

    GW1: The Trinity is dead. I think we agree on that point.

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