God the Son Dogma Refuted
BA—He is Biblically identified. “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:31 NASB).
T- We are talking about the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. You said the Word was created by God before creation.
BA—Since the Bible says he is “the firstborn of every creature” (Col 1:15 KJV), “whose origin is from of old, from ancient days” (Micah 5:2 NRSV).
T—I say and John 1:1 says He was God, therefore not a created being.
BA—The Bible says Jesus is “the only begotten God was is in the bosom of his Father”, but is not the “God” that “no one has seen” (John 1:T18 NASB). Being “begotten” means his life had a beginning, therefore he was created.
T—Jesus, on the other hand, was born as any human, from the womb of a woman, but wasn’t conceived like any human, for God conceived him.
BA—True.
T—John 1:3 continues its reference to the Word, “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” Only God can create. A created being cannot create.
BA—True, that’s why the scripture says, “GOD CREATED everything THROUGH him” (John 1:3 NLT).
T – The Hebrew word dia is a preposition which can mean either ‘by’ or ‘through.’ By is a better word considering the first two verses.
All things were made by him,…. Which is a proof at once of all that is said before; as that he was in the beginning; and that he was with God the Father in the beginning; and that he was God; otherwise all things could not have been made by him, had either of these been untrue.
BA—The Greek word dia means “through” or “by means of”. It does not means simply “by”.
T—The Word, God Himself and not some created being, was somehow injected into the womb of a woman and Jesus Christ, the SON OF GOD was born.
BA—You’ve just contradicted the scriptures by saying God himself came into Mary, and then admitting the Son of God was born.
T – Not if the Word was God like John 1:1 says. Jesus is both the Son of God, and God the Son in human flesh.
BA—The Bible never calls Jesus “God the Son”. That is one of the Trinitarian “man-made ideas” (Mark 7:7 NLT). “God is not a man” (Numbers 23:19). “No one has ever seen God” (1 John 4:12 NIV).
T—Jesus said, “I and my Father are one.” John 10:30.
BA—Which means, “I and my Father are of one accord” (John 10:30 Lamsa).
T—He then said, If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
BA—“The Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father” (John 10:38 AAT). Once again, Jesus is emphasizing his unity with his Father.
T—Moses and 73 Israelites saw God (not an angel, not a ruler or judge) according to Exodus 24:10-11. “And they saw THE GOD OF ISRAEL: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.” How can this be if no man can see God? It’s because they saw the second person of the Trinity, the Word (aka the messenger of the Lord), just like in the New Testament times, they saw God by seeing Jesus. Neither time did they see God the Father.
BA—According to the scriptures, “they had a VISION of God”
T – That’s ludicrous. I noticed you didn’t quote the scripture, just gave your interpretation. Every translation I examined (all of them) said basically “they saw the God of Israel” (it says it twice).
“And they SAW the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they SAW God, and did eat and drink.” Oh ye twister of scripture!
BA—Sorry for the inadvertent scripture citation omission. Here it is: “they had a VISION of God” (Exodus 24:11 Moffatt; The Emphasized Bible). “They stayed there before God” (Exodus 24:11 New English Bible). It is impossible that they literally saw Yahweh God. “Yahweh said . . . no one can see me and survive” (Exodus 33:19,20 NJB). Thus, the Trinitarian assertion that Jesus is Yahweh is contradicted by scripture.
T -“Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.” Hebrews 1:2-3.
BA—“Through the Son he created the universe” (Heb 1:3 NLT). Yes, Jesus is “express image ” of God.
T—And….” But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
BA—“God is your throne” (Heb 1:8 AAT; NRSV margin).
T—“Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”
BA—Yes, God is Jesus’ God.
T—Yes, these verses confirm His Son made the world. The Father said unto His Son, your throne Oh God is forever, confirming the Father said the Son is God; and also confirms the Father is the Sons’ God” (Hebrews 1:8-9). This is only possible if they are both God.
BA—That would make two Gods. However, according to the Bible, “God is only one” (Gal 3:20 NASB).
T—I believe John 1:1 literally, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.
BA—Taken literally would mean Jesus was the same being as the being he is “with”, which is impossible.
T – How else could you take it if not literally. Are you saying this verse is untrue and Joh is lying?
BA—No, “ALL scripture is inspired by God” (2 Tim 3:16), therefore all scriptures are true. Jesus said that he and his Father are “two” different people (John 8:17,18). The Bible says Jesus is “the only begotten God was is in the bosom of his Father”, but is not the “God” that “no one has seen” (John 1:T18 NASB).
BA—Yes, he could. “The poor man died and was carried away by angels to Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22: NASB). Since no one has seen God, Jesus could not be God.
T – Abrahams’ bosom was where the O.T. righteous dead went before Jesus took them to heaven after his resurrection.
BA—Luke 16:19-31 is a parable. “Abraham’s bosom” is not literal, but represents a postion of favor with God.
T—If you want to believe God the Father is God Almighty, I won’t disagree.
BA—That’s what the Bible says, “And I will be your Father, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the LORD Almighty.” (2 Corinthians 6:18 NLT).
T—However, Jesus is God just like the author of Hebrews 1:8-9 (who is quoting the prophet in Psalm 45:6-7) says.
BA—Jesus is “God” in the same sense that the Hebrew king was “God” to the people of Israel (Psalm 45:6). “O God: the king, in courtly language, is called “god”, i.e., more than human, representing God to the people” (NAB note on Psalm 45:6).