Was Jesus “The Angel of The LORD” In The Old Testament?
Sometimes Trinitarians claim that Jesus was “the Angel of the LORD” in the Old Testament. The following is an actual discussion with a Trinitarian who is very adamant about such a claim. In the quoted discussion below,”T” stands for the Trinitarian, and “BA” stands for us at this website.
T—Most of the Christophanies in the Old Testament are accomplished by the entity called “the Angel of the Lord.”
BA—There are no “Christophanies” in the OT. Not a single scripture supports such a thing.“And now he has made all of this plain to us by the appearing of Christ Jesus, our Savior” (2 Timothy 2:10 NIV). Jesus was alive all during the OT, but never appeared to anyone on earth until the NT.
T—The word Angel is translated as messenger, and Lord is translated as Jehovah in the Hebrew language. So the Angel of the Lord is not actually a created angel but is the Messenger of Jehovah.
BA–-“Yet if there is an angel at their side, a messenger, one out of a thousand, sent to tell them how to be upright” (Job 33:23 NIV). All angels are God’s messengers. “All of you mighty angels, who obey God’s commands, come and praise your LORD! ” (Psalm 103:20 CEV). All angels were created by God. “Praise Yahweh . . . all his angels” (Psalm 148:1,2 NJB).
T—As Christ is the second Person of the Triune God in the New Testament, the Angel of the Lord is the second Person of the Trinity in the Old Testament.
BA—There is no second Person of the Triune God in the New Testament or second Person of the Trinity in the Old Testament.
T—The Angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ,
BA—The Bible never says any such thing. Hebrews 1:4-14 makes clear Jesus is not an angel.
T—The testimony of Scripture has been so complete on this point that, in general, scholars who accept the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture are agreed that the Angel of Jehovah is the Christ of the Old Testament. Not only Christian theologians but Jewish scholars as well have come to the conclusion that the Angel of Jehovah is more than an angel.
BA—There is no scripture that says Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh” (Exodus 14:19 NJB).
You’ve quoted several scriptures where angels represent Almighty God Yahweh to humans, but they are still angels. The Bible never implies they are anything more than angels. With Jacob, for example, Hosea 12:4 says, “he struggled with the angel” (NIV).
T—God has many names.
BA—No, God has only one name, according to the Bible. “I am Yahweh, that is my name!” (Isaiah 42:8 NJB). But God has many titles.
T—BA—No, “the Son of Man . . . came to the Ancient of Days” and “was given dominion and glory and a kingdom” (Daniel 7:13,14 NKJV). The scriptures make it obvious that “the Son of Man” is not “the Ancient of Days”.
RGN- No, Daniel saw the Father, the Ancient of DaysBA—-If you’ll read Daniel 7:13,14, you’ll see that Daniel also saw “the Son of Man”.
T—In Revelation, John saw the Son, One like the Son of Man. Their description is almost identical.
BA—Similar, but in the same context, the scriptures refer to Jesus’ “God and Father” (Revelation 1:5,6).
T— “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’” (John 14:9).
This means they are both (Father, and Son) God (along with the Holy Spirit). The Tri-unity or Trinity or the Godhead.BA—There is no mention of the holy Spirit, Tri-unity, Trinity, or Godhead, in John 14:9. Neither is Jesus called God in John 14:9.
The fact is that the scriptures are clear that, “NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD” (1 John 4:9 NIV). “No one may see me and live” (Exodus 22:20 NIV).
T—I’m saying the Angel of the Lord is not an angel but the Messenger of the Lord.
BA—This is almost unbelievable! When the scriptures say, “the angel of Yahweh” (Exodus 14:19 NJB), we’re not to believe what they say? The scriptures make clear that all angels are messengers. We’ll stick with the scriptures. When the scriptures say it is an angel, it’s an angel. Case closed!
T—Hebrew – mălʼâk, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger.
BA—True, that’s scriptural.
T—I’m saying the Angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus.
BA—Here’s where you jump from fact to fiction.
T—Regarding Hagar, “And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? Question: Who spoke to Hagar? Answer: the angel of the LORD. SHE CALLED THE NAME OF THE LORD THAT SPOKE TO HER….Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her (the Angel of the Lord is the one who spoke to her), ‘You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, Have I also here seen Him who sees me?’” (Genesis 16:13). Clearly Hagar recognized this person to be God (in human form).BA—No, the scriptures are clear this is “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7 NJB)
T—In Genesis 21:17,18 “And God heard the voice of the lad. Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, “What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation.” Question: Who is talking. Answer: the angel of God. If the angel of God is talking and says I will make him a great nation, that means this is no mere angel. God is the only one who can do that (as in the pre-incarnate Jesus, aka the Word).
BA—No, according to the scriptures, it actually wasn’t until “these last days” that “God” “has spoken us by his Son” (Hebrews 1:1,2 ESV).
T—Genesis 22:11-12 says, But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.” And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” The angel of the LORD said FROM ME! In other words, he is relating God to Me (the angel of the LORD, the one talking).
Genesis 22:15-18: Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven…..In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” Whose voice is My voice. The voice of the angel of the LORD. It is the voice of the WORD.
BA—No, you’re reading something into the text that isn’t there. The scriptures are abundantly clear that “the angel of Yahweh called him”, “Abraham” (Genesis 22:11,15 NJB).
T—Genesis 31:11-13 – Jacob had a dream where the angel of God spoke to him, saying: Jacob…… I AM the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar, and where you vowed a vow unto me; now arise, get out from this land (Mesopotamia/Haran), and return unto the land of your kindred in Canaan.” Who spoke. The angel of God. What did he call himself? He said, I Am (another name for God) the God of Bethel… Again, it is the voice of the WORD (pre-incarnate Son of God, Jesus). You’re not saying God can’t speak for Himself, so He has to get an angel to do it for him are you?
BA—It is the scriptures, not us, that are saying “the angel of God spoke to him”. God CAN do anything, of course, but the scriptures are clear that he spoke through angels representing him. It is not for us to read into the scriptures something that is not there.
Saying “I am” doesn’t make one God. For example, the healed blind man said “I am” (John 9:9), but that doesn’t make him God.
T—Exodus 3:2-6 – ““The angel of the LORD appeared to him (Moses) in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush…..When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, Moses, Moses! And he said, Here I am. “Then He said, Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. He said also, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God” Who appeared to Moses in a burning bush? The angel of the LORD. Who called to Moses from the bush? God. Who did the angel of the LORD say he was? The God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. aka. the WORD (pre-incarnate Jesus Christ).
BA—-No, according to the scriptures, it actually wasn’t until “these last days” that “God” “has spoken us by his Son” (Hebrews 1:1,2 ESV). After Christ’s resurrection, the scriptures make plain, “an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fore in a bush” (Acts 7:30 ESV).
T—These scriptures (and many others) make it clear the Messenger (Angel) of the Lord is more than an Angel. And just because the Bible doesn’t say Jesus was the Angel of the LORD doesn’t mean he isn’t. The Bible doesn’t mention the word Bible either. The pre-incarnate Jesus is the one Micah is referring to: “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel” (Micah 5:2-3). Jesus is this ruler in Israel (especially in the millennium) whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
BA—The fact that Jesus was in existence at that time doesn’t make him “the angel of Yahweh” who spoke to humans.
T—I know the word Trinity isn’t in the Bible, and it doesn’t explicitly say it includes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. However, Matthew 28:16-19 says, “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” If Jesus isn’t God, was it wrong for the disciples to worship him? And why would they baptize in the name of this trinity?
BA—That account says nothing about any Trinity, or that the Son and the holy Spirit are God. Below are two more accurate translations than the KJV:
“When they saw him, they worshipped, but some doubted” (Matthew 28:17 CSB). It doesn’t say they worshipped Jesus.
“When they saw him, they fell down before though some doubted” (Matthew 28:17 NJB).
We have examined this issue very carefully, and proven that Jesus was not “the Angel of the LORD” in the Old Testament.
5 thoughts on “Was Jesus “The Angel of The LORD” In The Old Testament?”
On this particular issue, I agree with BA. If God did exist, he would not employ emissaries, messengers, or intermediaries. He would do his own work, including communication with human beings. There would be no Jesus Christ or Holy Spirit.
Glad you agree. However, God did speak through angels in the Old Testament. For example:
“The law that was given through angels”—Acts 7:53 NIV
“The law was given through angels”—Galatians 3:19 NIV
False. If God did exist, he wouldn’t speak through angels or anyone else. He would speak for himself since he would be all-powerful and perfectly moral. He would have no need for angels or any other intermediaries between himself and the human population. You worship a lesser deity who is not God.
We now know that God does not exist. This has been proven even by little ole me.
“God Almighty” “created all things”, and CAN do anything he wants to.
One point of reality to keep in mind is that, “Yahweh said . . . ‘no human being can see me and survive'” (Exodus 33:19,20 NJB).
He did not HAVE TO use intermediaries, but that’s the way he chose to operate.
BA: “God Almighty” “created all things”, and CAN do anything he wants to.
GW: Well of course, if God did exist, then he COULD do anything he WANTED TO DO. And he WOULD want to regularly communicate with all living persons simultaneously and WOULD not use intermediaries, like angels or Jesus or Muhammad.
BA: One point of reality to keep in mind is that, “Yahweh said . . . ‘no human being can see me and survive’” (Exodus 33:19,20 NJB).
GW: False. God did not say this. Instead, if he did exist, God would be seen in a human form by all living human persons at the same time, and they would all survive. Duh. The Bible frequently makes false statements about God. These are statements made by various human authors in which they are telling fictional stories or just their speculations about God.
BA: He did not HAVE TO use intermediaries, but that’s the way he chose to operate.
GW: Yes, God would not HAVE TO use intermediaries, if he did exist, but no, he WOULD not choose to operate that way. Why? Because he would be all-powerful and perfectly moral, he would use the best possible way to communicate with all other persons. This would be direct communication to all living persons at the same time, with no “go-betweens.”
GW: The Muslims claim that angels have spoken to them. The Christians claim different angels have spoken to them. But these so-called messages have been inconsistent or contradictory at times. So, the use of intermediaries is not the best way of communication. God would use none, if he existed.
GW: Unfortunately, you worship a lesser or inferior deity, not God.
I’m not sure if you’ve seen this relevant argument, so I will present it now.
Argument 114.
Argument Against the Existence of God Based on the Consequences of No Universal Communication: Gary Whittenberger, 8-9-2024
1. Definition: God is 1) the hypothetical, unique, exclusive, supernatural, independent, spiritual, normally invisible person, conscious intelligent agent, or sentient entity (primary traits). He/she* is maximally enduring, present, intelligent, rational, knowing, creative, powerful, and resilient (primary traits). He/she is also maximally loving, compassionate, cooperative, and moral with respect to other persons (secondary traits). He/she is designer and creator of the cosmos, occasional interventionist in the world, and the afterlife manager who decides the favorable or unfavorable disposition of human souls after they die (secondary traits). or 2) the Greatest Imaginable Possible Person (the “GIPPer”) or ideal person who, if he/she existed, would possess all desirable traits to the highest degrees and no undesirable traits, and who would be worthy of our greatest respect, admiration, and worship. (*Since God would not have a sex or gender, both male and female pronouns will be used to refer to God.)
2. If God did exist, there would be only one religion.
3. But there are at least hundreds of religions.
4. If God did exist, there would be only one “holy book”.
5. But there are at least hundreds of “holy books”.
6. If God did exist, there would be no disagreements or conflicts about God.
7. But there are at least billions of disagreements or conflicts about God.
8. If God did exist, his communications would be objective.
9. But many alleged communications by God are subjective.
10. If God did exist, there would be no atheists.
11. But there are at least millions of atheists.
12. If God did exist, there would be no intermediaries for him.
13. But there are at least thousands of alleged intermediaries for God.
14. If God did exist, there would be no doubt that he exists.
15. But doubt of God’s existence is widespread.
16. If God did exist, then everyone now existing seven years or older would know that he exists.
17. But at least millions of persons do not know that God exists.
18. If God did exist, then everyone would utilize the same religious symbols to worship God.
19. But there are at least hundreds of different religious symbols used to worship the alleged God.
20. If God did exist, then #2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14,16, and 18 would be true because God would regularly communicate to all existing persons at the same time.
21. But God has never communicated in this manner, and all the propositions stated in #3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19 are true.
20. Therefore, God does not exist.