ARE THE SOVEREIGN LORD AND THE LAMB PART OF A TRINITY?–REVELATION 6-7
Revelation and the gospel of John are two of the most devastating books in the Bible to the false doctrine of the Trinity. Notice who allegorical Christians who have been executed for their faith are said to pray to:
“How long, Sovereign Lord . . . “—Revelation 6:10 NIV
They pray to “the Sovereign Lord,” not to “the Lamb,” Jesus Christ, nor to the Holy Spirit.
“Fall over us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of their wrath has come”—Revelation 6:16,17 NIV
“Him who sits on the throne” is “God, who was seated on the throne” (Revelation 19:4 NIV). “The Lamb” is “Jesus” “who was slain” (John 1:29; Revelation 7:12). Jesus is obviously not sitting on the throne, and God has never been “slain” (Numbers 23:19). They are here presented as two entirely separate and distinct individuals. The Holy Spirit isn’t even mentioned here.
“Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb”—Revelation 7:10 NIV
Once again, “God” is portrayed as sitting on the throne, and “the Lamb”, Jesus Christ is shown to be an entirely separate and distinct individual, and the Holy Spirit isn’t even mentioned.
“All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshipped God”—Revelation 4:11 NIV
Here we notice that “God” is the one who is “worshipped”, and not the Lamb, Jesus Christ, nor any Trinity.
“They are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne [God] will shelter them with his presence. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'”—Revelation 7:15,17 NIV
“God” and “the Lamb”, Jesus Christ, are, here, once again, shown to be two entirely separate and distinct individuals, without any mention of the Holy Spirit, or any Trinity.
27 thoughts on “ARE THE SOVEREIGN LORD AND THE LAMB PART OF A TRINITY?–REVELATION 6-7”
As I have said before, the doctrine of the Trinity is false. If God did exist, then he would handle things himself, not through intermediaries. The Holy Spirit would not exist. Although Jesus probably existed, he was not divine or any messenger of God. By the way, we now know that God does not exist. This has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
You are correct in saying the Trinity doctrine is false, but are mistaken in your other statements. Just as powerful people, leaders, rulers, and high officials, etc., often use intermediaries through which to operate, so does God. The Holy Spirit is not a person, however, just as humans use electricity for power to accomplish things, God uses his holy spirit for “power” to accomplish things (Micah 3:8; Luke 1:17; Acts 1:8; 13:38). One of many factual testimonies about Jesus is in the “Testimonium Flavianum” is found in the non-Christian Josephus’ “Antiquities, 18:63-64,” completed in 93 CE, about 60 years after Jesus’ execution, references the time of Pontius Pilate: “At this time Jesus, a wise man (if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man), appeared. For he was a worker of incredible deeds, a teacher of men who happily receive the truth, and drew to himself many Jews–and many Greeks, too. this man was the Christ. and when Pilate had executed him at the instigation of the leading men among us, those who ad first loved him did not give up. For he appeared to them on the third day alive again (the divine prophets had spoken concerning him of these and countless other wonders). And to this day the tribe of ‘Christians’ (named after him) has not vanished.” This, and other historical accounts, provides independent verification of what the Bible says about Jesus.
RT: You are correct in saying the Trinity doctrine is false,…
GW: So we partly agree!
RT: but are mistaken in your other statements.
GW: I don’t think so.
RT: Just as powerful people, leaders, rulers, and high officials, etc., often use intermediaries through which to operate, so does God.
GW: Nonsense. You are forgetting that if God did exist, he would be all-powerful and perfectly moral. He would not need to use intermediaries and it would increase his credibility and trust to manage things himself. What better way to induce people to believe that you exist and are good?
RT: The Holy Spirit is not a person, however, just as humans use electricity for power to accomplish things, God uses his holy spirit for “power” to accomplish things (Micah 3:8; Luke 1:17; Acts 1:8; 13:38).
GW: There is no good evidence that either God or the Holy Spirit exists. In fact, there is conclusive evidence that God does not exist.
RT: One of many factual testimonies about Jesus is in the “Testimonium Flavianum” is found in the non-Christian Josephus’ “Antiquities, 18:63-64,” completed in 93 CE, about 60 years after Jesus’ execution, references the time of Pontius Pilate:
GW: There are no first-person author-identified eye-witness reports of any actions or statements of Jesus during his life.
RT: “At this time Jesus, a wise man (if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man), appeared. For he was a worker of incredible deeds, a teacher of men who happily receive the truth, and drew to himself many Jews–and many Greeks, too. this man was the Christ. and when Pilate had executed him at the instigation of the leading men among us, those who ad first loved him did not give up. For he appeared to them on the third day alive again (the divine prophets had spoken concerning him of these and countless other wonders). And to this day the tribe of ‘Christians’ (named after him) has not vanished.” This, and other historical accounts, provides independent verification of what the Bible says about Jesus.
GW: It is widely agreed by Bart Ehrman and other scholars that this passage contains false additions: “this man was the Christ” and “For he appeared to them on the third day alive again” are two examples of added Christian commentary which is almost certainly false. In addition, as you know the passage is not “first-person author-identified eye-witness reports of any actions or statements of Jesus during his life.” It is hearsay.
The New Testament is written by “eyewitnesses” of Jesus himself (John 19:35; 2 Peter 1:16; 1 John 1:2 NIV), and by those who interviewed actual “eyewitnesses” of Jesus (Luke 1:2 Hebrews 2:3 NIV). Josephus (born 37 CE), although not an eyewitness of Jesus himself, being a native of Judea, interviewed many eyewitnesses of Jesus, and is considered an unbiased historian par excellence. In Antiquities 20.200, Josephus described the martyrdom of James, whom he identified as simply “the brother of Jesus, called Christ.” Such a passing reference to Jesus suggests either that he felt Jesus needed no introduction or that Josephus himself had already introduced him to the reader. This, in itself, proves your repetition of Bart Ehrman and others’ allegation that later Christians spuriously added Josephus’ earlier reference to Jesus, to be false.
RT: The New Testament is written by “eyewitnesses” of Jesus himself (John 19:35; 2 Peter 1:16; 1 John 1:2 NIV),…
GW: The evidence does not support your conclusion, as has been demonstrated by Bart Ehrman, Robert Price, and many other biblical scholars. Pick one of those citations, quote it accurately, and then we can discuss it.
RT: and by those who interviewed actual “eyewitnesses” of Jesus (Luke 1:2 Hebrews 2:3 NIV).
GW: The evidence does not support your conclusion. None of these authors says “I interviewed Person X and he told me that he saw Jesus…” Pick one of those citations, quote it accurately, and then we can discuss it.
RT: Josephus (born 37 CE), although not an eyewitness of Jesus himself, being a native of Judea, interviewed many eyewitnesses of Jesus, and is considered an unbiased historian par excellence.
GW: I have some respect for Josephus, but as you admit, he never observed Jesus when he was alive. From what I have read of him and by him, he also never reported ““I interviewed Person X and he told me that he saw Jesus…”
RT: In Antiquities 20.200, Josephus described the martyrdom of James, whom he identified as simply “the brother of Jesus, called Christ.” Such a passing reference to Jesus suggests either that he felt Jesus needed no introduction or that Josephus himself had already introduced him to the reader.
GW: I accept that as some indirect evidence that Jesus existed, but it is hardly evidence for any particular sayings, acts, or events of Jesus.
RT: This, in itself, proves your repetition of Bart Ehrman and others’ allegation that later Christians spuriously added Josephus’ earlier reference to Jesus, to be false.
GW: False. I identified the parts of the previous Josephus quote which are spurious. You have done nothing to prove otherwise.
GW: You continue to avoid discussing my argument against the existence of God. BTW, my argument has now been published. Here is the reference citation:
Whittenberger, Gary. “Falsification of the God Hypothesis by COVID-19.”
Free Inquiry. Vol. 42, No. 5, August/September 2022, Pg. 34-40.
Print.
You can purchase a copy of this magazine online or probably at the Books a Million store in Tallahassee.
“The wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: ‘He catches the wise in their craftiness’, and again, ‘The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.’ (1 Corinthians 3:19,20 NIV). Your theory, as expressed in your books, does not invalidate God’s truth. God warned of tragic results if humans rebelled (Genesis 2:15-17), and urged them not to rebel. Unfortunately, they did so anyway, and immediately after they rebelled, he foretold the tragic results that would ensue, and expelled them from their perfect paradise home, exiling them into the harsh world outside (Genesis 3:16-24). However, “God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes” (Ecclesiastes 7:29 NIV). Disasters and pandemics, etc., are not God’s fault, “his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. a faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he” (Deuteronomy 32:4 NIV).
RT: “The wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: ‘He catches the wise in their craftiness’, and again, ‘The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.’ (1 Corinthians 3:19,20 NIV).
GW: The wisdom of this world is the only wisdom we have! God does not exist, and this has been proven by the minds of this world. We know the thoughts of those who try to show that God exists are futile. The evidence is insufficient to conclude that God exists, which is just one of many fantasies.
RT: Your theory, as expressed in your books, does not invalidate God’s truth.
GW: We now know the truth that God does not exist. You have found no error in my argument, and nobody else has either, so far.
RT: God warned of tragic results if humans rebelled (Genesis 2:15-17)…
GW: He who exists only in the imagination cannot make valid warnings. Everyday, the percentage of human persons which rebels against the theory of God increases. Time is on our side.
RT: …and urged them not to rebel. Unfortunately, they did so anyway, and immediately after they rebelled, he foretold the tragic results that would ensue, and expelled them from their perfect paradise home, exiling them into the harsh world outside (Genesis 3:16-24).
GW: The story of Adam and Eve is just a tall tale. We know it can’t be true because if God existed, he would never implement cross-generational punishment. No way.
RT: However, “God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes” (Ecclesiastes 7:29 NIV).
GW: Yes, humans are inquisitive, creative problem solvers.
RT: Disasters and pandemics, etc., are not God’s fault,…
GW: That’s just a straw man. My argument does not claim that the Covid pandemic is God’s fault. In fact, it claims that if God did exist, he would have prevented the pandemic! You are totally missing the point. If you believe that God would not prevent the pandemic, if he existed, then you need to explain why.
RT: “his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. a faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he” (Deuteronomy 32:4 NIV).
GW: Yes, if God did exist, his works would be perfect, and that is why he would have prevented the pandemic! Look at Step #7 of my argument. It gives you the moral rule which God would follow to prevent the severe harm of the pandemic. It tells you why God would prevent the pandemic, if he did exist. This is how we know that he does not exist. Just use your common sense. Use reason to discover the underlying truth.
Satan claimed that humans would be better off not to submit to God, his rules, and rulership (Genesis 3:4,5). God had already told humans they had a choice to either obey him, or not obey him, and warned of the tragic consequences of disobedience (Genesis 2:16,17). This is why God not only didn’t prevent this latest pandemic, but has not prevented innumerable other human tragedies, disasters, wars, famines, pandemics, etc. throughout human history. “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12 NIV). However, to solve the problem, “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood–to be received by faith” (Romans 3:25 NIV), because “God our Savior . . . wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4 NIV). That is why, in the end, “if by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” (Romans 5:17 NIV).
RT: Satan claimed that humans would be better off not to submit to God, his rules, and rulership (Genesis 3:4,5).
GW: Satan? You’ve got to be kidding! If God did exist, Satan would not exist. God either would not have created him to start with or would have killed him shortly thereafter. The theory of God requires that there is only ONE supernatural entity, and that would be God himself. Besides, there is no good evidence that Satan exists. Belief in Satan is another ancient superstition. Instead, join the 21st century.
RT: God had already told humans they had a choice to either obey him, or not obey him, and warned of the tragic consequences of disobedience (Genesis 2:16,17). This is why God not only didn’t prevent this latest pandemic, but has not prevented innumerable other human tragedies, disasters, wars, famines, pandemics, etc. throughout human history.
GW: Ok, now we are making some progress. You are finally responding directly to my argument. Thank you! However, your objections here are irrational. First, there is no good evidence that the story of Adam and Eve actually happened. Once again, there are no first-person author-identified eye-witness reports, no physical evidence, and no recordings to support the hypothesis. And therefore, we may safely assume that the story is fiction. Secondly, we know that the story cannot be true because if God did exist, he would never engage in cross-generational punishment. If a real Adam and Eve sinned, then he would punish only them and he would punish them proportionally, not harshly, as is depicted. Thirdly, the pattern of a pandemic is not the pattern of harm which God would implement as a just punishment. Think about this: What would just punishment from God look like if God did exist? Describe it. If you can’t, I can. Fourthly, if God did exist, then he would have prevented almost all the tragedies you listed. He would be perfectly moral and all-powerful. Step #7 shows you the moral rule which he would implement for all persons, including himself. So, I have refuted your objections here, but thanks for trying.
RT: “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12 NIV).
GW: That is certainly false. If God did exist, he would apply the rule of individual accountability and would never punish other people for the sins of one person, especially in a cross-generational manner. Do you have children? If you commit a crime, should your children be punished for your crime? Of course not! You know better. And God would know better than that, if he existed. Don’t be so gullible in accepting the word of the Genesis author. You are a lot smarter than he was.
RT: However, to solve the problem, “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood–to be received by faith” (Romans 3:25 NIV),…
GW: Impossible! If God did exist, neither would he arrange for the torture, humiliation, and murder of his own son, nor would he punish his own guiltless son to substitute for the punishment of all of humanity for their sins. Again, that would be a violation of the law of individual accountability. Your god is too small. You imagine him to be an immoral character.
RT: …because “God our Savior . . . wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4 NIV)
GW: This is another way we know that God does not exist. If God did exist and he wanted all people to be saved, then he would reveal himself and his rules for living in a current, universal, clear, objective, unequivocal “press conference.” That would be the most efficient way to save all people or almost all people, and God would do this because he would be perfectly moral and all powerful at the same time. Get it?
RT: That is why, in the end, “if by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” (Romans 5:17 NIV).
GW: This would be a double violation of the law of individual accountability. God would never do that, if he existed.
GW: So far you have found no errors in my argument, but at least you are trying.
“God is not a man” (Numbers 23:19), and his “ways are higher than your ways and [his] thoughts are higher than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:9 NIV). God “does not listen when people cry out because of the arrogance of the wicked. Indeed, God does not listen to their empty plea; the Almighty pays no attention to it. How much less, then will he listen when you say that you do not see him . . . [Gary] opens his mouth with empty talk; without knowledge he multiplies words” (Job 35:12-14,16 NIV). “As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’S word is flawless” (2 Samuel 22:31 NIV). Your “‘words lack insight'” (Job 34:35 NIV).
RT: “God is not a man” (Numbers 23:19),…
GW: I certainly agree. What is God? God is the hypothetical supernatural, unique, independent, eternal, invulnerable, everywhere-present, all-knowing, perfectly rational, all-powerful, perfectly moral person or intelligent agent who created the cosmos, sometimes intervenes in our world, and assigns human persons to different desirable or undesirable conditions after they die.
RT: …and his “ways are higher than your ways and [his] thoughts are higher than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:9 NIV).
GW: Yes, if God did exist, his ways and thoughts would be higher than ours. He would be perfectly moral and would follow the CUE rule in Step #7. He would follow the ways of Reason.
RT: God “does not listen when people cry out because of the arrogance of the wicked. Indeed, God does not listen to their empty plea; the Almighty pays no attention to it. How much less, then will he listen when you say that you do not see him . . .opens his mouth with empty talk; without knowledge he multiplies words” (Job 35:12-14,16 NIV).
GW: But what about the cries of the righteous? This verse ignores them. In the midst of Covid, millions of righteous people cried out to God for help and their pleas were not heard. Why? Because God does not exist!
RT: “As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’S word is flawless” (2 Samuel 22:31 NIV).
GW: Yes, if God did exist, his ways would be perfect. He would be perfectly rational and moral, as stated in the definition of Step #1. But sadly, he doesn’t exist.
RT: Your “‘words lack insight’” (Job 34:35 NIV).
GW: So far, you have found no error in my argument, but thanks for trying. My words show great insight into both the nature of God and the nature of morality. On these topics, I refer you to my two latest published articles, hot off the presses:
Whittenberger, Gary. “MetaEthics: Toward a Universal Ethics – How
Science and Reason Can Give Us Objective Moral Truths Without
God.” Skeptic. Vol. 27, No. 2, 2022, Pg. 63-67. Print.
Whittenberger, Gary. “Falsification of the God Hypothesis by COVID-19.”
Free Inquiry. Vol. 42, No. 5, August/September 2022, Pg. 34-40.
Print.
Your accusations against Almighty God are false. “The eyes of the LORD are on the righteous, and his ears are attentive to their cry . . . The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears them; he delvers them from all their troubles” (Psalm 34:15,17 NIV). “He does not take his eyes off the righteous; he enthrones them with kings and exalts them forever” (John 36:7 NIV). “The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death” (Proverbs 10:16 NIV). “The LORD detests the way of the wicked, but he loves those who pursue righteousness” (Proverbs 15:9 NIV). “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die'” (John 11:25,26 NIV).
You are in open denial of the scientific fact that the universe is not eternal, but had a beginning (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 3:4). You also believe that something can come from nothing, and that life has come from non-life. Proven scientific facts, such as E=MC2 and Gregor Mendol’s experiments, for example, have proven your beliefs false. “Every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything” (Hebrews 3:4 NIV).
RT: You are in open denial of the scientific fact that the universe is not eternal, but had a beginning (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 3:4).
GW: Here you are presenting irrelevant evidence to support your speculation that the universe had a beginning. Bible verses are not scientific evidence! You know better. We have discussed this topic ad nauseum. The fact of the matter is that we do not know what happened before the Big Bang. Our knowledge does not go back that far. There are several hypotheses, but the one most likely to be true is that the universe is eternal. I gave you three reasons to think so, and you even agreed with one of them.
GW: You claimed that something cannot come from nothing, and I agreed. But then, you contradicted yourself by claiming that God created the universe out of nothing! This is a failure in logic which should be clear to all who read this forum.
RT: You also believe that something can come from nothing,…
GW: False. I’ve always said the opposite. See above. Please do not distort my views. Be accurate and precise.
RT: …and that life has come from non-life.
GW: Yes, I do believe that life on Earth came from nonliving molecules. That’s the best explanation for the life we see today. You have no better explanation.
RT: Proven scientific facts, such as E=MC2 and Gregor Mendolsohn’s experiments, for example, have proven your beliefs false.
GW: False. Einstein’s finding that E=MC2 shows that energy and matter are convertible, one to the other. Gregor Mendel (not Mendolshon) discovered some to the laws of genetic transmission. I agree with their findings.
RT: “Every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything” (Hebrews 3:4 NIV).
GW: I do wish that God did exist. Our world would be so much better if he did. But sadly, this is not the case. There is no good, sufficient, or conclusive evidence to show beyond a reasonable doubt that God exists. Furthermore, there are several sound arguments which now show that he does not exist. My argument is one of these, and so far, you have found no error in it. I challenge you to keep trying. If God did exist, would he allow the Covid pandemic to occur? If so, why?
RT: Your accusations against Almighty God are false.
GW: I haven’t made any accusations against God. Nobody can or should complain about a divine person who doesn’t exist! What I have done, however, is to claim that if God did exist, he would have prevented the Covid pandemic. If you disagree with that claim, then please tell us why you believe God would allow it. You can’t make a rational case for that.
RT: “The eyes of the LORD are on the righteous, and his ears are attentive to their cry . . . The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears them; he delvers them from all their troubles” (Psalm 34:15,17 NIV).
GW: The evidence against this verse is clear and unequivocal. As I said last time, millions of righteous human persons (as devout or more than you) cried out to God to help them in their suffering from Covid, and they did not get a favorable response. The most likely explanation is that God does not exist. For if he did exist, he would have helped them. He would have prevented them from getting Covid, or from suffering from it, or going to the hospital on account of it, or dying from it.
RT: “He does not take his eyes off the righteous; he enthrones them with kings and exalts them forever” (John 36:7 NIV).
GW: See above for the refutation.
RT: “The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death” (Proverbs 10:16 NIV).
GW: Millions of righteous persons died in the Covid pandemic. The righteous and the wicked were hit equally hard.
RT: “The LORD detests the way of the wicked, but he loves those who pursue righteousness” (Proverbs 15:9 NIV).
GW: Ha. God so loved the righteous that he allowed them to get sick, greatly suffer, be hospitalized, separated from their loved ones, and die prematurely. Take off your blinders, Ross. Where have you been for the past three years?
RT: “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die’” (John 11:25,26 NIV).
GW: Here we see Jesus lying. Persons who believed in Jesus during his own life still died. Jesus knew this. And so he was lying.
GW: Your last couple responses had begun to address my argument directly, and I like that, but now you are evading it again and merely citing Bible verses which is not helpful at all.
GW: BTW, did you get fully vaccinated against Covid? Have you been ill with Covid?
Science has definitely proven that the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe. In fact, that is what the Big Bang describes, the beginning of the universe. Science has also proven that life cannot come from non-living matter. You’re simply in denial of these facts, because they undercut your atheistic philosophy!
You’ve been shown the scriptures that reveal why there is evil, disaster, and death in the world (Genesis 2:15-17; 3:16-19; Job 1:6-19; 2:1-7; Romans 5:12-19; Hebrews 2:14), and that Almighty God’s temporary allowance of it does not invalidate his infinite love, power, justice, and wisdom (1 John 4:7,8,16; Deuteronomy 32:4; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Job 12:13; 34:12,13; 36:4-7,22-26; 37:23,24; Psalm 50:6; Revelation 21:3-5).
RT: Science has definitely proven that the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe. In fact, that is what the Big Bang describes, the beginning of the universe.
GW: False X2. You keep repeating false claims. We’ve been over this many times.
RT: Science has also proven that life cannot come from non-living matter.
GW: Evidence? Quotes from scientists?
RT: You’re simply in denial of these facts, because they undercut your atheistic philosophy!
GW: Actually, they don’t. Even if the claims you have made here were true (they aren’t), they still wouldn’t mean that God created the universe and life. Atheism is about gods, not about the universe or life.
Francesco Redi, in the 1600’s, and Louis Pasteur, in the 1800’s, demonstrated that life cannot come from non-living matter. John Tyndall, in 1877, further proved by demonstration that bacteria, and thus life, cannot arise spontaneously, that life cannot come from non-living matter.
False. You are misinterpreting their results. They showed that life DID NOT arise from specific nonliving molecules in the lab over the course of a few days at the time they were living. If they could have been present on Earth from about 4.5 to 3.5 billion years ago at the right places on Earth observing the right molecules, they almost certainly would have seen life arise from nonlife. Eventually, it is very likely that life will be created in the lab by biochemists, maybe in the lifetimes of our own children.
Your mind is in La-La Land on this issue. You say “if . . . “, and “they almost certainly would have seen . . . “, and “it is very likely . . . maybe”. You’re deluded, my friend!
Define “La-La Land” and “deluded,” and then present evidence to support your claims.
You have reverted to evading my argument.
RT: You’ve been shown the scriptures that reveal why there is evil, disaster, and death in the world (Genesis 2:15-17; 3:16-19; Job 1:6-19; 2:1-7; Romans 5:12-19; Hebrews 2:14),
GW: Provide one quote from your best verse and we can discuss it.
RT: and that Almighty God’s temporary allowance of it does not invalidate his infinite love, power, justice, and wisdom (1 John 4:7,8,16; Deuteronomy 32:4; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Job 12:13; 34:12,13; 36:4-7,22-26; 37:23,24; Psalm 50:6; Revelation 21:3-5).
GW: If God did exist, then he would not allow the Covid pandemic at all (not even temporarily) because he would be all-loving, all-powerful, perfectly just, and perfectly wise. If you think he would allow it, then please tell us why. I don’t think you can. Besides, if God did exist and allowed it, he would have already told all of why he did it. This has not happened. The lack of an explanation is one more nail in the coffin of God.
GW: The argument which I have been discussing with you is now in publication. You can order it online or probably at the Books a Million bookstore in Tallahassee. Here is the reference citation:
Whittenberger, Gary. “Falsification of the God Hypothesis by COVID-19.”
Free Inquiry. Vol. 42, No. 5, August/September 2022, Pg. 34-40.
Print.
God warned Adam and Eve of the consequences of disobedience: “You must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die” (Genesis 2:17 NIV). The result, as God had forewarned, was: “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12 NIV).
RT: God warned Adam and Eve of the consequences of disobedience: “You must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die” (Genesis 2:17 NIV).
GW: This is just a story, fiction. There is no good evidence that it happened. In fact, we know it is false for several reasons. First, God does not exist, and this has been proven. Secondly, if God did exist he would never promise death to Adam and Eve for merely eating the fruit. That would be disproportionate to the crime. And lastly, it is said that he extended the penalty to the descendants of Adam and Eve. He would never do that. That would be a violation of the principle of individual accountability. That would be like punishing your children and grandchildren (if you have any) for your own sins.
RT: The result, as God had forewarned, was: “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12 NIV).
GW: This would never happen if God did exist. It is the same old injustice of transgenerational punishment. We have discussed this many times and you simply continue to defend the existence of an immoral god.
You’re using your old standard, “God does not exist”, and “Humans would not inherit sin if God existed”, cop-outs, in denial of the scriptural truth and facts. That doesn’t fly on this website!
RT: You’re using your old standard, “God does not exist”,…
GW: Yes, and what a great standard it is! It is the conclusion of a valid argument which you continue to evade.
RT: and “Humans would not inherit sin if God existed”,…
GW: Yes, and what a great standard that is! If God did exist, because he would be perfectly moral (as you have agreed), then he would follow the principle of individual accountability and would not transfer sin or penalty from one person to the next or from one generation to the next. If you and your ancient buddies think that he would do it, then present your case for that.
RT: cop-outs,
GW: Anything you disagree with, you just call a cop-out.
RT: in denial of the scriptural truth and facts.
GW: More than half of your scripture is false. Any verse which mentions God is false because we now know that God does not exist.
RT: That doesn’t fly on this website!
GW: It seems to be flying quite well! Are you getting ready to censor me? I would not be surprised since that is a common tactic of theists and Christians – silence the people who disagree with you. The Catholics used to conduct inquisitions and book burnings regarding what they believed to be heresies. The modern forms of censorship include “cancel culture,” “de-platforming,” and “banning from websites.”
GW: For a little while you began to talk about my argument. You presented a couple of objections which I refuted. But then you went back to evasion. Read the argument and try to find an error in it. So far, you haven’t. Talk to your imaginary god and ask him to help you find an error. Of course we know that won’t work.