“Some say the Angel of the LORD in the Hebrew Scriptures is no different from other angels. But He is far different. In fact, He is God Himself.”—-Trinitarian Website

It is very awkward for Trinitarians to believe that Jesus is eternally co-equal and co-eternal with God, and yet he’s never mentioned in the Old Testament (OT), but the holy Spirit is. When we read the New Testament, however, we cannot miss the active role that Jesus plays as Savior and Head of the Church. To support their eternal Triune God dogma, Trinitarians have concocted the unscriptural idea that Jesus, as their “second person of the Trinity”, was “the angel of the LORD” who is mentioned a number of times in the OT.
This is the viewpoint that Trinitarians argue from, and we are defending what the scriptures actually say, in the discussion with a Trinitarian that follows. (“BA” stands for us here at this website, and “T” stands for the Trinitarian.)

BA—In the scriptures, “the angel of Yahweh” is always identified as an angel. For example, “the angel of the LORD said, ‘LORD Almighty . . . ” (Zechariah 1:12 NIV). Obviously, “the angel of the LORD” cannot be “the LORD Almighty”.
T- If the correct translation of malak is “the Messenger of the LORD” where does it say he is an angel? mălʼâk, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to dispatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God.

BA—“מַלְאַ֧ךְ (mal·’aḵ). Noun – masculine singular construct. Strong’s 4397: A messenger, of God, an angel.” 

You’re attempting to inject Trinitarian ideas into a plain reading of the scriptures. The fact is that “the angel of Yahweh then spoke and said, ‘Yahweh . . . ‘ . . . Yahweh then replied with kind and comforting words to the angel who was talking to me” (Zechariah 1:12,13 NJB). Yahweh is someone other than “the angel of Yahweh”. 

 

BA – “Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?” (Mark 12:26 NIV). If Jesus was “the angel of the LORD” in the burning bush, he would have said, “I said to him”, rather than “God said to him”.
T – Jesus is speaking in the third-person vernacular. Do you think he is going to go around saying “I did this as God” back in the good old days. The Jews would have killed him right there on the spot. 

BA—No, Jesus spoke the truth. Referring to God, he went on to say, “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Mark 12:27 NIV). You’re attempting to twist the scriptures to say something they don’t say, in order to support Trinitarian ideas.

 

BA—Four times in this account, he is called “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7,9,10,11 NJB). The scriptures never mention any “second person of the Trinity”, nor do they say that Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh.”
T – No, four times he is called “the messenger of Yahweh (your interpretation of malak against mine).

BA—“Angel” means “messenger.” It’s the same thing. No difference. “Messenger of Yahweh” means he’s not Yahweh. 

 

T—Yes, we know there is no mention of the word ‘Trinity’ in the Bible.

BA—Yes, and we should stick to believing in, and promoting, things that are actually IN  the scriptures.

 

T— If the messenger of the Lord isn’t an angel (and he’s not),

BA—“If”???? – The problem with your interpretation is that the scriptures say he’s an angel. Every time “angel of Yahweh” is mentioned in the scriptures, he’s always identified as an angel. This is a vital point, because GOD IS NEVER CALLED AN ANGEL. 

 

T—-that leaves one other person, the Word (the Word is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ according to John 1:14-17).

BA—According to Trinitarian dogma, “God the Son” is equal to “God the Father.” “The angel of Yahweh” is obviously not equal to Yahweh. “God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem” (1 Chronicles 21:15 NIV). Notice, “God” sent “the angel of Yahweh”. Later, “Yahweh felt sorry about the calamity and said to the angel who was destroying the people: ‘Enough now! Hold your hand!’ The angel of Yahweh was standing the threshing-floor of Araunah the Jebusite” (2 Samuel 24:16 NJB). These verses are not written as though there is any equality between God and the angel, as if angel was “God the Son”. Yahweh God is clearly the commander and controller over what the angel does.

 

T—You said Jesus was the one Micah referred to, only you used a translation that fits your viewpoint. Here is another translation for Micah 5:2, ” But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, you are little to be among the clans of Judah; [yet] out of you shall One come forth for Me Who is to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. (AMPC). Yes, his goings forth have been from of old as the Messenger of the Lord. Jesus Christ is the Messenger of the Lord of the New Testament.

BA—The translation you quoted of Micah 5:2 says the same thing!!! “Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. “ Jesus was definitely in existence during OT times and before, but Micah 5:2 says nothing about “his goings forth have been from of old as the Messenger of the Lord. Jesus Christ is the Messenger of the Lord of the New Testament.” You inserted a Trinitarian idea into the text.

 

BA – “You believe in God, believe also in me”. The language clearly indicates that God is someone other than Jesus.
T – No it doesn’t. Jesus is not going to go around claiming He is God. The Jews would kill him for blashphemy (which they did anyhow). The following is from John 10:29-36.

“My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.

30 I and the Father are One.

BA—They are “one” [Greek–“hen”, neuter gender], meaning “one” in unity (John 17:11,21-23), but not they are not the same person.

 

T—31 Again the Jews [d]brought up stones to stone Him.

32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?

33 The Jews replied, We are not going to stone You for a good act, but for blasphemy, because You, a mere [e]Man, make Yourself [out to be] God.

34 Jesus answered, Is it not written in your Law, I said, You are gods? (anytime the word gods is not capitalized in any translation it is meant to refer to angels or men but never Elohim.

BA—The human Israelite king is called “God”  in Psalm 45:6, and he wasn’t “God the Father” or “God the Son”.

 

T—35 So men are called gods [by the Law], men to whom God’s message came—and the Scripture cannot be set aside or cancelled or broken or annulled—

36 [If that is true] do you say of the One Whom the Father consecrated and dedicated and set apart for Himself and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?

BA—That is all Jesus claimed to be; “the Son of God”, but never “God the Son”.

 

T—37 If I am not doing the works [performing the deeds] of My Father, then do not believe Me [do not adhere to Me and trust Me and rely on Me].

38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe Me or have faith in Me, [at least] believe the works and have faith in what I do, in order that you may know and understand [clearly] that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father [One with Him].

Jesus is content to call himself the Son of God. And to call the Father, God.

BA—True.

 

T—If Jesus was the Word (and he was)

BA—True.

 

T—and the Word was God (second Person of the Trinity)

BA—The scriptures never mention, nor imply, any “second Person of the Trinity.”

 

T—but then was incarnated into a man, then he is not only God but also the Son of God.

BA—Jesus is “the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father”, but is not the “God” “no one has seen” (John 1:18 NASB).

 

T—Only God can create. A created being cannot create. God Almighty doesn’t need someone to work through. If He did, he wouldn’t be All Mighty.

BA—True, he doesn’t “need to”, but being Almighty, he “does whatever he pleases” (Job 23:13 NIV; Ecclesiastes 8:3 ESV).

The Trinitarian assertion that “the angel of Yahweh” is the Son of God, Jesus Christ, contradicts the Bible’s first and foremost principle — that “God is One and there is no other but Him” (Mark 12:32 Majority Standard Bible)