Should We Observe “Yom Kippur,” “the Day of Atonement”?
Every year, “Yom Kippur,” “the Day of Atonement” is observed by practicing Jews, Samaritans, and some Christians, on “the tenth day of the seventh month” (Leviticus 25:27). On our calendar, this day comes in either late September or early October. In 2023, it began at sundown on September 24th and ended at sundown on September 25th. This Jewish festival was very important under the Old Mosaic Law Covenant that Almighty God made with the ancient nation of Israel, as elaborated in detail in Leviticus chapter 16. “He has not done this with any other nation” (Psalm 147:19,20 NLT). Jews today “observe many other traditions” in connection with “Yom Kippur” which “go beyond what is written in Scripture” (1 Corinthians 4:6 GWT).
However, the Old Mosaic Law Covenant was “canceled,” and “replaced” by the “new covenant” (Colossians 2:14 NLT; 2 Corinthians 3:11 NLT; Hebrews 9:15), and has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10:1). God had commanded Israel that, “the Day of Atonement” “is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites” (Leviticus 16:34 NIV).
The problem with the Old Covenant was this: “The old system under the law of Moses was only a shadow, a dim preview of the good things to come, not the good things themselves. The sacrifices under that system were repeated again and again, year after year, but they were never able to provide perfect cleansing for those who came to worship” (Hebrews 10:1 NLT). Why? Because, “it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” permanently (Hebrews 10:4 NIV). Then why was the Old Law Covenant “given at all?” (Galatians 3:19 NIV). “To show people their sins . . . until the coming of” Christ (Galatians 3:19 NLT).
To solve this problem, “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement” (Romans 3:25 NIV). Jesus Christ “offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time” (Hebrews 10:12 NLT). “God paid a ransom to save you” with “the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God” (1 Peter 1:18,19 NLT).
So, there is no need for anyone to celebrate “Yom Kippur,” “the Day of Atonement” now (Galatians 4:9-11).
For more detailed explanations about how we know this, please see the following articles on this website:
“Old Covenant Cancelled–New Covenant Operates”
“Old Covenant Shadows Fulfilled in New Covenant Substance of Reality”
“New Covenant–‘The Good Things That are Now Already Here”
28 thoughts on “Should We Observe “Yom Kippur,” “the Day of Atonement”?”
Even if God did exist (he doesn’t), he would never set up any systems of atonement. Instead, he would implement and promote justice.
“Would you discredit my justice?” (Job 40:8 NIV), God asks. Almighty God is all about justice!
God has ‘implemented and promoted justice’ from the very beginning of humanity. Atonement is a key component of God’s perfect justice. “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood–to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness . . . so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus” (Romans 3:25,26 NIV). “He is a God of justice” (Psalm 50:6 NIV).
Adam and Eve were punished and expelled from their paradise home because of their rebellion (Genesis 3:16-24). Cain was punished and exiled for his murder of Abel (Genesis 4:10-16).
God “will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed” (Acts 17:31 NIV). “With justice he judges” (Revelation 19:11 NIV). “With justice he will give decisions” (Isaiah 11:4 NIV). “The Almighty will not twist justice” (Job 34:12 NLT). “He loves justice” (Psalm 11:7; 99:4 NIV). “The LORD secures justice” (Psalm 140:12 NIV). “The greatness of his government and peace there will be no end . . . upholding it with justice” (Isaiah 9:7 NIV).
GW1: In all that follows, GW stands for me – Gary Whittenberger. And BA stands for the author of Bible Authenticity.
BA1: “Would you discredit my justice?” (Job 40:8 NIV), God asks.
GW1: First, God does not exist, and this has been proven. Secondly, justice stands on its own, and thus I would credit or discredit the behaviors of any person based on the standards of justice.
BA1: Almighty God is all about justice!
GW1: If God did exist, he would ensure justice in all the affairs of all persons, but sadly he does not exist. For instance, if God did exist, the Holocaust would not have occurred. But the Holocaust, a great miscarriage of justice, did occur.
BA1: God has ‘implemented and promoted justice’ from the very beginning of humanity.
GW1: Sadly, this is false. For example, just look at all the rapes of women in which the rapist is never caught. This is not justice.
BA1: Atonement is a key component of God’s perfect justice.
GW1: Nonsense. First, God does not exist, as I said before. Secondly, atonement is not and cannot ever be a part of justice. It is unjust in its essence. Atonement transfers sin and penalty from one person to another, and so persons do not get what they deserve. This is the opposite of justice.
BA1: “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood–to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness . . . so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus” (Romans 3:25,26 NIV).
GW1: More nonsense. If God did exist, he would never arrange for the arrest, torture, humiliation, and murder of his own son or messenger who perhaps did no wrong. That would be unjust. And God would never transfer sin and penalty from one person to another. That would be unjust. Finally, God would not require faith as a condition for salvation. That would be unjust. Instead, God would be just, if he did exist.
BA1: “He is a God of justice” (Psalm 50:6 NIV).
GW1: If he did exist, God would be perfectly moral, and this would include being perfectly just. But unfortunately for all of us, God does not exist. This has been proven, even by my Holocaust argument.
BA1: Adam and Eve were punished and expelled from their paradise home because of their rebellion (Genesis 3:16-24).
GW1: But you are not telling the whole story. The descendants of Adam and Eve were punished for the sins of this first couple. That would be unjust and something that God would never do, if he did exist.
BA1: Cain was punished and exiled for his murder of Abel (Genesis 4:10-16).
GW1: If God did exist, he would ensure that Cain was punished for murder, but the punishment would not have been exile. In exile, Cain could have lived out his life with many benefits. Instead, the punishment would have been a proper term of imprisonment.
BA1: God “will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed” (Acts 17:31 NIV).
GW1: Pure nonsense! If God did exist, he would judge individuals, not groups or the world, and he would do the judging without the use of assistants or intermediaries, like men.
BA1: “With justice he judges” (Revelation 19:11 NIV). “With justice he will give decisions” (Isaiah 11:4 NIV). “The Almighty will not twist justice” (Job 34:12 NLT). “He loves justice” (Psalm 11:7; 99:4 NIV). “The LORD secures justice” (Psalm 140:12 NIV). “The greatness of his government and peace there will be no end . . . upholding it with justice” (Isaiah 9:7
GW1: All these verses describe how God would behave, if he did exist. But sadly he doesn’t. Through my Holocaust argument alone, we now know that God does not exist. So far, nobody has found any error in it.
No, justice does not “stand on its own.” You’re equivocating the meaning of justice to suit your atheistic agenda.
Look at the real definition of justice:
“The meaning of JUSTICE is the maintenance administration of what is just, especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments”—Merriam-Webster
“The process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals”—Brittanica
Justice must be administered according to law.
Jesus voluntarily suffered death. Why?–“He submitted to death, so that by God’s grace his experience of death should benefit all humanity” (Hebrews 2:9 NJB). “In whom, through his blood, we gain our freedom, the forgiveness of our sins” (Ephesians 1:7 NJB).
BA2: No, justice does not “stand on its own.”
GW2: Yes, justice stands on its own independent of the existence of gods.
BA2: You’re equivocating the meaning of justice to suit your atheistic agenda.
GW2: False. Justice is a concept independent of the concept of gods. What is justice? “Justice (or “true justice” if you prefer that term) is retribution, revenge, or contingent intentional harm imposed by a duly constituted authority against a person in response to their “bad” behavior in a consistent, fair, humane, transparent, reliable, and proportional manner. Justice will have many effects including reducing the probability of similar bad behavior of the offender, deterrence of others from similar behavior, protection of the offender and the community, repairing damage done, and restoring relationships. (Mercy or forgiveness is any withholding or reduction in just punishment.)” If you disagree, then present your definition of “justice” and we can debate the two definitions.
BA2: Look at the real definition of justice: “The meaning of JUSTICE is the maintenance administration of what is just, especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments”—Merriam-Webster
GW2: That is close to the definition I presented earlier. The key word here is “merited.” Believers in Christianity mistakenly think that if he existed, God would distribute UNMERITED rewards and punishments.
BA2: “The process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals”—Brittanica Justice must be administered according to law.
GW2: Yes, but the law itself must be based on justice, not injustice. Law just indicates systematic and reliable procedure, not necessarily a just procedure.
BA2: Jesus voluntarily suffered death.
GW2: Yes, it was a case of “suicide by cop.” This is not something to be proud of.
BA2: Why?–“He submitted to death, so that by God’s grace his experience of death should benefit all humanity” (Hebrews 2:9 NJB).
GW2: This describes a system in which people do not get what they merit or deserve, and so it is not a just system. Any system based on grace, mercy, forgiveness, and/or atonement is not a system based on justice. In fact, it is contradictory to justice.
BA2: “In whom, through his blood, we gain our freedom, the forgiveness of our sins” (Ephesians 1:7 NJB).
GW2: Forgiveness and atonement are the opposite of justice. People do not get what they deserve or merit. Let’s take a specific example. Ted Bundy murders 50 women. According to Christianity, God sends him to heaven if he accepts Jesus Christ as his savior. You call this justice? No, this is not justice. This is injustice. The doctrine is false, irrational, unethical, harmful, and superstitious.
Humans rebelled against God, and brought sin and death (which did not exist previously) into the world (Genesis 2:15-17; Romans 5:12; Deuteronomy 32:4; Ecclesiastes 7:29).
“As for God, his way is perfect” (Psalm 18:30 NJB).
“The Law of Yahweh is perfect” (Psalm 19:7 NIV).
The existence of evil doesn’t negate the existence of God.
In fact, you wouldn’t know what evil is, if it were not for God (Romans 2:14,15), even though you deny his existence.
Humans, the universe, and all living things were designed by God (Revelation 4:8,11).
BA3: Humans rebelled against God, and brought sin and death (which did not exist previously) into the world (Genesis 2:15-17; Romans 5:12; Deuteronomy 32:4; Ecclesiastes 7:29).
GW3: False. We now know that God does not exist. There are many fictional stories in the Bible, and the story of Adam and Eve is one of them. If God did exist, he wouldn’t punish Adam and Eve with death for eating an apple. Duh. Also, God would not punish the descendants of Adam and Eve for their own sins. Duh. Both those actions would be unethical, and God would not be like that.
BA3: “As for God, his way is perfect” (Psalm 18:30 NJB).
GW3: If God did exist, he would be perfect! He would even prevent the Holocaust. Imagine that.
BA3: “The Law of Yahweh is perfect” (Psalm 19:7 NIV).
GW3: If God did exist, his law would be perfect. It would require that persons prevent horrible harms, when they can. You know, horrible harms like the Holocaust.
BA3: The existence of evil doesn’t negate the existence of God.
GW3: The existence of horrible harms does negate the existence of God. Why? Because if God did exist, he would prevent them. You know, horrible harms like the Holocaust. (The concept of evil is obsolete and equivocal, so I no longer use it.)
BA3: In fact, you wouldn’t know what evil is, if it were not for God (Romans 2:14,15), even though you deny his existence.
GW3: I would know what a horrible harm is. The Holocaust was a horrible harm. Are you familiar with it? Do you deny it occurred? The Nazis stole from, kidnaped, assaulted, tortured, and murdered millions of persons. They attempted genocide of the Jews. Don’t you know this? This was wrong, regardless of the existence of any god. This is obvious. However, if God did exist, because he would be all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly moral, he would have prevented the Holocaust. This is obvious.
BA3: Humans, the universe, and all living things were designed by God (Revelation 4:8,11).
GW3: That hypothesis has now been falsified. We now know that God does not exist.
“Through one person sin entered into the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned” (Romans 5:12 NAB). Evolutionists even admit that humans have a common ancestor.
Humans are not punished for other people’s sins, not even their ancestors, including Adam and Eve. “Only the one who sins shall die. The son shall not be charged with guilt of his father, nor shall the father be charged with the guilt of his son. Justice belongs to the just, and wickedness to the wicked” (Ezekiel 18:20 NAB).
God has provided a sure way out of the predicament of sin and death, for anyone who wants to avail themselves of it. “I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one. He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world” (1 John 2:1,2 NAB). An explanatory footnote about the term “Advocate” is in the NAB at John 14:16: “The Greek term derives from legal terminology for an advocate or defense attorney.” “God is a just judge” (Psalm 7:12 NAB [7:11 in most]). However, when Jesus serves as one’s “defense attorney,
” he never loses a case.
Therefore, justice is served for everyone.
“The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God'” (Psalm 14:1).
BA4: “Through one person sin entered into the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned” (Romans 5:12 NAB).
GW4: Because God does not exist, sin does not exist. But if God did exist, he would not penalize the descendants of Adam and Eve for their individual disobedience. That would be unethical. If you think otherwise, then you are using a false moral code.
BA4: Evolutionists even admit that humans have a common ancestor.
GW4: I agree, but they reject the idea of sin, as I do.
BA4: Humans are not punished for other people’s sins, not even their ancestors, including Adam and Eve.
GW4: You and the author of Genesis think they are. Read the text. According to the story (fiction), God punished Adam and Eve and extended the same punishment to their descendants. This is obvious from a plain reading of the text.
BA4: “Only the one who sins shall die. The son shall not be charged with guilt of his father, nor shall the father be charged with the guilt of his son. Justice belongs to the just, and wickedness to the wicked” (Ezekiel 18:20 NAB).
GW4: False. Everyone dies. Nobody dies because of sin. Because God does not exist, sin does not exist. But it appears that the author of Genesis and the author of Ezekiel disagree on the rules of the hypothetical God. If God did exist, the author of Ezekiel would be correct.
BA4: God has provided a sure way out of the predicament of sin and death, for anyone who wants to avail themselves of it.
GW4: Here you are acknowledging that the lesser god whom you worship implements injustice. How do I know this? Because you mention “a way out.” If God did exist (he doesn’t), there would be no “way out.” God would ensure proper punishment for each individual for each instance of their wrong doing, and this would include you, and me. That would be justice. God would never implement forgiveness, mercy, grace, expiation, or atonement for dealing with instances of wrong doing. I gave you the example of Ted Bundy and you said nothing about it.
BA4: “I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one. He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world” (1 John 2:1,2 NAB).
GW4: Do you even know what “sin” means? A sin is any behavior which the hypothetical God has commanded human beings to avoid or refrain from. It is basically disobedience. Not all sins would be wrong. For example, eating an apple or increasing one’s knowledge of the world is not wrong. But since God does not exist, sin does not exist. If God did exist, of course he would not arrange for the arrest, humiliation, torture, and murder of his own son to substitute for the punishment of human beings for sinning. What a ridiculous idea! That would be unethical, and if God did exist he would not be unethical. He would be perfectly ethical. The problem here is that you believe in a lesser god who is not God.
BA4: An explanatory footnote about the term “Advocate” is in the NAB at John 14:16: “The Greek term derives from legal terminology for an advocate or defense attorney.”
GW4: I agree.
BA4: “God is a just judge” (Psalm 7:12 NAB [7:11 in most]). However, when Jesus serves as one’s “defense attorney, ” he never loses a case.
GW4: If God did exist, he would be a just judge, but he doesn’t exist. Too bad for us. Jesus is dead. He is no longer employed as an attorney..
BA4: Therefore, justice is served for everyone.
GW4: Not for the victims of the Holocaust! And so, your claims are falsified.
BA4: “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 14:1).
GW4: But the wise person says aloud “God does not exist.” It is foolish to hide this knowledge from others. Embrace the truth, and the truth will set you free!
“Refined speech is not fitting for a godless fool”—Proverbs 17:7 GWT
Refined speech is fitting for everyone, the smart and the foolish.
“Though the pride of the godless person reaches to the heavens . . . he will perish forever, like his own dung”—Job 20:6,7 NIV
Everyone perishes forever. When the brain dies, that is the end of personal existence for everyone. Sorry.
“There will be no future for the wicked” (Psalm 37:38 NIV), but, “Whoever does the will of God lives forever” (1 John 2:17 NIV)
“This is the promise he has made us: eternal life”—1 John 2:25 NAB
“About the resurrection of the dead–have you not read what God said to you, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?” (Matthew 22:31,32 NIV). “He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for to him all are alive” (Luke 22:38 NIV).
His “promises have been thoroughly tested” (Psalm 119:140 NIV). “All [his] words are true” (Psalm 119:160 NIV).
“It is impossible for God to lie”—Hebrews 6:18 NIV
BA5: “There will be no future for the wicked” (Psalm 37:38 NIV), but, “Whoever does the will of God lives forever” (1 John 2:17 NIV)
GW5: Both verses are false. There will be no future for the righteous or the wicked. We all die and stay dead. God does not exist, and this has been proven.
BA5: “This is the promise he has made us: eternal life”—1 John 2:25 NAB
GW5: Life is finite for all of us, regardless of your wishes or a Bible author’s promises.
BA5: “About the resurrection of the dead–have you not read what God said to you, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?” (Matthew 22:31,32 NIV).
GW5: False again! God has said nothing to anybody. Why? Because he does not exist! This has been proven. There is no good evidence that anybody at anytime has ever been resurrected or come back to life. What would good evidence of this look like? Remember the Three Rs? Reports, Recordings, and Remnants.
BA5: “He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for to him all are alive” (Luke 22:38 NIV).
GW5: False again! God is neither the god of the living or of the dead. Why? Because he doesn’t exist! These authors of the Bible are not here to discuss my Holocaust argument. But you are here. Why do you evade it?
BA5: His “promises have been thoroughly tested” (Psalm 119:140 NIV).
GW5: God made no promises. He doesn’t exist. Isn’t this obvious? Yes it is!
BA5: “All [his] words are true” (Psalm 119:160 NIV).
GW5: God issued no words. Why? Because nonexistent people do not communicate.
BA5: “It is impossible for God to lie”—Hebrews 6:18 NIV
GW5: If God did exist, it would be possible for him to lie. He would be all-powerful and have free will, and thus he COULD lie. But he wouldn’t lie because he WOULD be perfectly rational and ethical. You are confusing “could” and “would,” and they are not the same thing. If God did exist, he would have appeared at the Nuremberg Trials and testified TRUTHFULLY about what he knew about the Holocaust. But that didn’t happen. Therefore, God does not exist. Isn’t this obvious? Yes it is for those who were not brain washed as children.
“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, ‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’ . . . This is what the LORD says . . . your Creator: ‘Do you question what I do . . . Do you give me orders . . .? I am the one who made the earth and created people to live on it . . . I stretched out the heavens. All the stars are at my command'”—Isaiah 45:9-12 NLT
BA6: “What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, ‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’ . . . This is what the LORD says . . . your Creator: ‘Do you question what I do . . . Do you give me orders . . .? I am the one who made the earth and created people to live on it . . . I stretched out the heavens. All the stars are at my command’”—Isaiah 45:9-12 NLT
GW6: False in every way. For four good reasons, it is likely that the universe is eternal. We’ve been over this many times. And so, if that is the case, then the universe had no creator, as the ancients mistakenly thought. I don’t argue with a creator because there is none to argue with. If you think there is one, then bring him forth and I’ll be happy to argue with him. God does not exist, and this has been proven, even by my Holocaust argument in which you have found no error. No, I don’t give orders to any creator. There is none to order. You are still living your life on the basis of a debunked worldview and a lesser imaginary god who is not God at all. The god you worship is either amoral or immoral, take your pick.
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”—Genesis 1:1
We’ve been over this many times, indeed! You’re in denial of the scientific fact that the universe had a beginning, because it crushes your atheism.
“Thus says God, Yahweh, who created the heavens and spreads them out”—Isaiah 42:5 NJB
The universe has been expanding ever since its beginning, and as science has discovered, at just the critical rate so that it will go on expanding forever.
“He who sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, the inhabitants of which are like grasshoppers, stretches out the heavens like a cloth, spreads them out like a tent to live in”—Isaiah 40:22 NJB
There is no way that Isaiah, in the 7th century BCE, could have known the earth was a “circle”, and the universe was’stretched and spread out’, except that he was divinely inspired.
Atheists “are wise in their own eyes”, but “one . . . who is discerning sees how deluded they are”—Proverbs 28:11 NIV
BA: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”—Genesis 1:1
GW: False. God does not exist, and this has been proven. For four reasons the universe is probably eternal, as I have said to you many times.
BA: We’ve been over this many times, indeed! You’re in denial of the scientific fact that the universe had a beginning, because it crushes your atheism.
GW: Neither you nor anyone else has proven that the universe had a beginning. But even if it did, God would still not exist. We know this. If the universe had a beginning, there are at least four possibilities: 1) There was no cause. 2) The cause was just a natural physical event. 3) The cause was the action of an alien. 4) The cause was the action of a god who is not God. That’s it. I’ve presented this to you before, and you just ignore it. Your wishing that God created the universe doesn’t make it true. I wish it were true, but sadly it isn’t.
BA: “Thus says God, Yahweh, who created the heavens and spreads them out”—Isaiah 42:5 NJB
GW: God does not exist. I have proven this with my Holocaust argument in which you have found no error and which you continue to evade.
BA: The universe has been expanding ever since its beginning, and as science has discovered, at just the critical rate so that it will go on expanding forever.
GW: I agree with your first claim, but your second claim has not been proven.
BA: “He who sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, the inhabitants of which are like grasshoppers, stretches out the heavens like a cloth, spreads them out like a tent to live in”—Isaiah 40:22 NJB
GW: Sorry, but God does not exist. We now know this.
BA: There is no way that Isaiah, in the 7th century BCE, could have known the earth was a “circle”, and the universe ‘stretched and spread out’, except that he was divinely inspired.
GW: Nonsense. He was speculating. The Earth is not a circle. It is an oblate spheroid. So he was wrong about that. On the stretching, he could have meant the land stretching out in all directions.
BA: Atheists “are wise in their own eyes”, but “one . . . who is discerning sees how deluded they are”—Proverbs 28:11 NIV
GW: God does not exist, and this has been proven. You just don’t know it yet.
“Ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish in the sea inform you, which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind”—Job 12:7-9 NIV
“Ever since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities . . . have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse”—Romans 1:20 NIV
BA: “Ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish in the sea inform you, which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind”—Job 12:7-9 NIV
GW: Complete nonsense. Animals, birds, the earth, and fish do not communicate with human beings. And BTW, the book of Job is probably the worst book of the Bible. The author imagines God doing things he would never do, if he existed, like making a deal with Satan. Utterly ridiculous! I don’t know why you are obsessed with these superstitions of ancient peoples.
BA: “Ever since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities . . . have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse”—Romans 1:20 NIV
GW: False. Ever since the first horrible harm, it can be seen clearly that God does not exist. The Holocaust is just one of the worst of the lot in the 20th century.
You atheists contradict yourselves. You go to tremendous effort to try to convince people to reject belief in God, and, instead, accept atheism.
Yet, you admit that you don’t even know if free will exists.
If someone doesn’t have free will, then they have no control over what they believe, or do.
Atheism is “throwing you into confusion”—Galatians 1:7 NIV
BA: You atheists contradict yourselves.
GW: A small percentage of atheists contradict themselves on a few things, but I don’t.
BA: You go to tremendous effort to try to convince people to reject belief in God, and, instead, accept atheism.
GW: The truth is that God does not exist. This has been proven. I am proud of the tremendous effort I give to promoting the truth. Nothing wrong with that.
BA: Yet, you admit that you don’t even know if free will exists.
GW: Nobody knows yet if free will exists, but it probably doesn’t. But lack of knowledge on free will does not contradict having knowledge that God does not exist. You are perceiving a contradiction where none exists. But for the sake of argument let’s just assume that free will does exist. If God did exist, he would have free will. So, would he use that free will to allow the Holocaust or prevent it? Isn’t it obvious that he would use it to prevent it? Yes, it is! You have thought of NO morally justified reason why God would allow the Holocaust, if he existed.
BA: If someone doesn’t have free will, then they have no control over what they believe, or do.
GW: False. You are not understanding the issue of free will. If we had free will, we would still make decisions and control our actions by our decisions. It would just be the case that our decisions would be determined either by natural processes and forces, e.g. genetics, environment, or rearing, or by chance.
BA: Atheism is “throwing you into confusion”—Galatians 1:7 NIV
GW: Yes, you may be confused by atheism, but it’s really quite simple. Atheism is the position “I don’t believe in the existence of any gods.” What’s so confusing about that? It’s just that you do not believe in any of the thousands of gods purported to exist, except for one, and your god isn’t even God.
Atheism has you very confused! – You don’t think that free will exists. If free will doesn’t exist, as you believe it doesn’t, then people have no choice as to what they believe, or do. No one would have any responsibiblity for anything they do, because they have no free choices. No tails would be just, or fair, not even the Nuremberg Trials. Thus, atheism is caught in its own trap!
So all your preaching about the benefits of atheism, your involvement in politics, taking up the cause for the environment, etc., is all for naught, if there is no free will.
However, Jesus said we have choices in life, such as taking “the road that leads to destruction”, or taking “the road that leads to life” (Matthew 7:13,14 NIV).
The entire atheistic argument is undermined by denying that there is free will.
BA: Atheism has you very confused!
GW: False. Atheism is merely the position “I don’t believe that any gods exist.”
BA: You don’t think that free will exists.
GW: That has nothing to do with atheism. There are atheists who believe that free will exists and those who do not. There are even theists who believe that free will exists and those who do not. Divine determinism is a real belief of some people. Aren’t you familiar with that position?
BA: If free will doesn’t exist, as you believe it doesn’t, then people have no choice as to what they believe, or do.
GW: False. You are still confused, even after I explained this to you. People make choices, so it is not true that people have no choice. You make several choices every hour of your life.
BA: No one would have any responsibiblity for anything they do, because they have no free choices.
GW: Even if the choices made by persons were determined by prior factors or by chance, we should still hold persons ACCOUNTABLE for any bad choices, e.g. immoral behaviors. So, responsibility is pretty much irrelevant.
BA: No tails would be just, or fair, not even the Nuremberg Trials.
GW: This sentence is incoherent. Rephrase it.
BA: Thus, atheism is caught in its own trap!
GW: False. Atheism is caught in no traps at all.
BA: So all your preaching about the benefits of atheism, your involvement in politics, taking up the cause for the environment, etc., is all for naught, if there is no free will.
GW: False. All those activities are valuable, whether free will exists or not. Value is determined by effects, not causes.
BA: However, Jesus said we have choices in life, such as taking “the road that leads to destruction”, or taking “the road that leads to life” (Matthew 7:13,14 NIV).
GW: Jesus was correct in the sense that we make choices, but here he is presenting a false dichotomy. We all die, regardless of what choices we make in life. That’s just the way it is, even though you don’t like it.
BA: The entire atheistic argument is undermined by denying that there is free will.
GW: False. Free will exists or not, even though God does not exist. The issue of free will has not been resolved, but the issue of God has been resolved. We now know, finally, that God does not exist. This has been proven by many arguments, even by my own Holocaust argument in which you have found no error.
“You are badly mistaken”—Mark 12:27 NIV
You say that people should be held accountable, then you contradict yourself by saying that responsibility is irrelevant, and by saying that people make choices, even if they don’t have free will. Accountability is tantamount to responsibility, and choices indicate free will.
The Bible indicates refers to “each person, as responsible to God” (1 Corinthians 7:24 NIV), to people being “held responsible” (Luke 11:50,51 NIV) for their actions.
Jesus referred to “anyone who chooses to do the will of God” (John 7:17 NIV). Doing the “will of God” requires deliberate, concerted action on the part of the individual.
BA: “You are badly mistaken”—Mark 12:27 NIV
GW: Yes, you are badly mistaken.
BA: You say that people should be held accountable, then you contradict yourself by saying that responsibility is irrelevant,
GW: There is no contradiction. Responsibility with respect to libertarian free will is irrelevant, and people should be held accountable for their harmful or unethical actions, whether or not they are responsible in that sense. For example, if you commit murder, then you intentionally decided to kill somebody for no morally justified reason and you should be locked up. Locking you up will influence you to make better decisions in the future and perhaps deter others from similar behavior. That would be holding you accountable. This should happen whether or not your decision was freely chosen.
BA: and by saying that people make choices, even if they don’t have free will.
GW: It is just a fact that people make choices. If you murder somebody, you made a choice between murder and some other actions. However, you may not have free will to make that choice. It is more likely that your choice was determined by prior factors or possibly by chance.
BA: Accountability is tantamount to responsibility, and choices indicate free will.
GW: No. You are making a category error here. Responsibility and accountability are two different things. Responsibility pertains to the cause of choices, but accountability pertains to punishing or rewarding people after the fact for the choices they make. If you are held accountable for murder, then you are punished for doing it.
BA: The Bible indicates refers to “each person, as responsible to God” (1 Corinthians 7:24 NIV), to people being “held responsible” (Luke 11:50,51 NIV) for their actions.
GW: In these verses the word “responsible” actually means “accountable to God.” In other words, if he did exist, God would punish all people for all immoral acts. It has nothing to do with free will or causes of choices. (In fact, the verses rule out the possibility of forgiveness, mercy, grace, and atonement. God would be perfectly just. He would implement perfect accountability! Get it?)
BA: Jesus referred to “anyone who chooses to do the will of God” (John 7:17 NIV).
GW: Yes, he was correct on this point. People assume that God exists, that God has communicated his will, and that they know his will. So, they make a choice to follow that will or not. If you think the will of God is that you condemn gay marriage, then you make a choice to follow that will or not.
BA: Doing the “will of God” requires deliberate, concerted action on the part of the individual.
GW: Yes, I agree. The only problem is that God does not exist, and this has been proven by many arguments, including my own Holocaust argument in which you have found no error. In fact, so far nobody has found an error.
All people do have free will, and the words “responsible” and “accountable” indicate that. You even admit, “In these verses the word ‘responsible’ actually means ‘accountable to God.'” The words can be used interchangeably, such as:
“You can hold me personally responsible for him”—Genesis 43:9 NIV
“You can hold me accountable for him”—Genesis 43:9 NRSV
Everyone has “the possibility of [receiving God’s] forgiveness, mercy, grace, and atonement,” except those whom God has already judged to be “crucifying the Son of God all over again” (Hebrews 6:6 NIV), because they “deliberately keep on sinning after [they] have received the knowledge of the truth” so that “no sacrifice for sins is left” (Hebrews 10:26 NIV).