Science and the Bible now agree: The universe is old and is expanding

Science and the Bible now agree: The universe is old and is expanding

Expanding universe
If the universe is expanding, it had a beginning. The Bible tells us what happened in the beginning.

In the last 100 years, science has discovered  that the universe is expanding. However, the men who wrote the Bible spoke of this concept when it was written almost 3,000 years ago. But many people believe the Bible and science contradict one another, primarily because of the unscriptural assertions of “Young-Earth Creationism”. Is this really so? Let’s examine some basic scientific concepts about the universe and see how they compare to what the Bible says.

First Law of Thermodynamics – E = mc2

The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can be transformed from one form to another, but can be neither created nor destroyed. Matter and energy are interchangeable (E=mc2).

Now, keeping these things in mind, let’s consider a few verses from the Bible:

“Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.” (Isaiah 40:26 NIV)

“Our Lord and God, You are worthy to receive glory and honor and power, because You have created all things, and because of Your will they exist and were created.” (Revelation 4:11 CSB)

“By faith we understand that the universe was created by God’s command, so that what is seen has been made from things that are not visible.” (Hebrews 11:3 CSB)

This is exactly what God did when he transferred some of his energy into the matter making up the universe. It is also proves that Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. Both science and the Bible now agree that the universe had a beginning.

Second Law of Thermodynamics

The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy for an isolated system can never decrease over time. “Entropy” is a measure of unusable energy  within a closed or isolated system (the universe for example). As usable energy decreases and unusable energy increases, “entropy” increases. Entropy is also a gauge of randomness or chaos within a closed system. As usable energy is irretrievably lost, disorganization, randomness and chaos increase. This means that left to itself, the universe will become less organized or disorganized over time.

  • Fact 1: The universe began in a highly ordered state.
  • Fact 2: The universe remains highly ordered.
  • Thus, we can infer that God created and maintains the universe.

The universe would have become somewhat less organized over time, had God not created it from the beginning and maintained it through its estimated 12 to 15 billion year existence. In contradiction to “Young Earth Creationism”, which asserts that the universe is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old, the Bible is in complete agreement with science that the universe is billions of years old. The following scriptures give Biblical testimony to the fact that God not only created the universe in the beginning, but he also continues to maintain it in a highly ordered state.

“Through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see—such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him. He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together.” (Colossians 1:16-17 NLT)

“The heavens proclaim the glory of God. The skies display his craftsmanship. Day after day they continue to speak; night after night they make him known. They speak without a sound or word; their voice is never heard. Yet their message has gone throughout the earth, and their words to all the world. God has made a home in the heavens for the sun.” (Psalm 19:1-4 NLT)

“For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.” (Romans 1:20 NLT)

“Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens? Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket,  or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance? Who can fathom the Spirit of the Lord, or instruct the Lord as his counselor? Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding? Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket; they are regarded as dust on the scales; he weighs the islands as though they were fine dust…. Before him all the nations are as nothing; they are regarded by him as worthless and less than nothing. With whom, then, will you compare God? To what image will you liken him? … He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in…. ‘To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?’ says the Holy One…. Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.” (Isaiah 40:12-15, 17-18, 22, 25, 28 NIV)

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised,  those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge? … The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power; in his justice and great righteousness, he does not oppress.” (Job 37:16, 23 NIV)

“Have you grasped the celestial laws? Could you make their writ run on the earth?” (Job 38:33 NJB)

The Universe had a Beginning

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1 CSB)

The Universe is Expanding

Early in the  twentieth century, astronomer Edwin Hubble found that galaxies are moving away from each other. This discovery led him to believe that the universe is expanding. Hubble’s discovery was upsetting to many scientists of his time, because if the universe is expanding, then –  at some time in the distant past – the universe had a beginning. And if the universe had a beginning, it would confirm what the Bible had said all along. Albert Einstein said the whole idea “irritated” him, although later in life he accepted the idea that the universe had a beginning. Arthur Eddington, a British mathematician and astronomer said that he hoped a “loophole” could be found to avoid the implication that the universe had a Creator.

But the prophets of the Bible knew that God had “stretched out the heavens” long before the expanding universe theory was proposed by Hubble and other scientists in the last 100 years. The prophets of the Bible had already revealed this in the Scriptures:

“He alone stretches out the heavens.” (Job 9:8 NIV)

“He stretches out the heavens like a tent.” (Psalm 104:2 NIV)

“He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.” (Isaiah 40:22 NIV)

“The Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out.” (Isaiah 42:5 NIV)

“I am the Lord, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens.” (Isaiah 44:24 NIV)

“It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts.” (Isaiah 45:12 NIV)

“My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.” (Isaiah 48:13 NIV)

“You forget the Lord your Maker, who stretches out the heavens and who lays the foundations of the earth, that you live in constant terror every day because of the wrath of the oppressor, who is bent on destruction? For where is the wrath of the oppressor?” (Isaiah 51:13 NIV)

“But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.” (Jeremiah 10:12 NIV)

“He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.” (Jeremiah 51:15 NIV)

“The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person.” (Zechariah 12:1 NIV)

As we can see, the Bible said all along what science has just recently discovered.

16 thoughts on “Science and the Bible now agree: The universe is old and is expanding

  1. RT1: If the universe is expanding, it had a beginning.

    GW1: Not necessarily. It depends on what is your subject and what you mean by “beginning.” According to science, there was a beginning to the expansion of our universe about 13.7 billion years ago in an event called “the Big Bang,” but of course, this does not mean there was a beginning to the existence of our universe. Most likely, our universe, i.e. its basic components, is eternal.

    RT1: The Bible tells us what happened in the beginning.

    GW1: Genesis gives us a fanciful story, but mentions nothing about the Big Bang. Therefore, it must be an ancient myth.

    RT1: Less than 100 years ago, science discovered that the universe is expanding. However, the men who wrote the Bible spoke of this concept when it was written almost 3,000 years ago.

    GW1: The Bible may have gotten a few details about cosmology correct, but mostly not. It says nothing about the primordial particle, the Big Bang, galaxies, solar systems, nucleosynthesis, or evolution.

    RT1: But many people believe the Bible and science contradict one another. Is this really so?

    GW1: Some details of the Bible are consistent with science, and some are not. There are some contradictions. For example, Genesis 1:1 (NIV) says “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” In the beginning of the expansion of our universe there was no God, and the heavens and the earth were not the first products of the Big Bang. So, this verse is contradicted by science and by reason in general.

    RT1: Let’s examine some basic scientific concepts about the universe and see how they compare to what the Bible says.

    GW1: Yes, let’s do that, as I did above with Genesis 1:1.

    RT1: First Law of Thermodynamics – E = mc2
    The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can be transformed from one form to another, but can be neither created nor destroyed. Matter and energy are interchangeable (E=mc2).

    GW1: That’s not quite accurate, but close enough for our discussion.

    RT1: Now, keeping these things in mind, let’s consider a few verses from the Bible:

    “Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.” (Isaiah 40:26 NIV)

    GW1: It wasn’t a person who created the heavens or the bodies in the heavens. A natural process produced these things. Stars can’t be “missing.” There is no set number for them.

    “Our Lord and God, You are worthy to receive glory and honor and power, because You have created all things, and because of Your will they exist and were created.” (Revelation 4:11 CSB)

    GW1: God does not exist. It is just an ancient myth, still believed by many people today.

    “By faith we understand that the universe was created by God’s command, so that what is seen has been made from things that are not visible.” (Hebrews 11:3 CSB)

    GW1: Faith is invalid. Faith is belief untuned to evidence and/or logic, and usually tuned to authority, majority opinion, peer pressure, tradition, intuition, wishes, or some combination of these. You should place your trust in reason, not in faith.

    RT1: This is exactly what God did when he transferred some of his energy into the matter making up the universe.

    GW1: Are you suggesting that God made the universe out of himself?

    RT1: Second Law of Thermodynamics
    The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy for an isolated system can never decrease over time. “Entropy” is a measure of unusable energy within a closed or isolated system (the universe for example). As usable energy decreases and unusable energy increases, “entropy” increases. Entropy is also a gauge of randomness or chaos within a closed system. As usable energy is irretrievably lost, disorganization, randomness and chaos increase. This means that left to itself, the universe will become less organized or disorganized over time.

    GW1: One thing that neither you nor anyone else knows is that our universe is a closed system. That’s still up for investigation.

    RT1: Fact 1: The universe began in a highly ordered state.

    GW1: When the expansion of our universe started, the universe was in a more ordered state (lower entropy) than it is now.

    RT1: Fact 2: The universe remains highly ordered.

    GW1: This is false. The universe now is in a less ordered state (higher entropy) than it was at the Big Bang.

    RT1: Thus, we can infer: God created and maintains the universe.

    GW1: That conclusion does not follow from your two premises, one of which is false. God does not exist. This has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt by many arguments, using both philosophy and science.

    RT1: The universe would have become somewhat less organized over time, had God not created it from the beginning and maintained it through its estimated 12 to 15 billion year existence.

    GW1: Your age range is too wide. It has been approximately 13.7 billion years since the Big Bang. The universe has become “somewhat less organized over time,” and so this goes against your God hypothesis.

    RT1: The following scriptures give Biblical testimony to the fact that God not only created the universe in the beginning, but he also continues to maintain it in a highly ordered state.

    GW1: This is false. The universe is not “in a highly ordered state.” There are pockets of order in the universe, but overall the universe is less ordered (higher entropy) than it was at the Big Bang. In fact, if God did exist, you would expect a higher overall order than now exists.

    “Through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see-such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him. He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together.” (Colossians 1:16-17 NLT)

    GW1: What is the evidence that an invisible throne exists? There isn’t any. That’s just imaginative speculation. The universe is held together by gravity, and not very well. God does not exist. We now know this.

    “The heavens proclaim the glory of God. The skies display his craftsmanship. Day after day they continue to speak; night after night they make him known. They speak without a sound or word; their voice is never heard. Yet their message has gone throughout the earth, and their words to all the world. God has made a home in the heavens for the sun.” (Psalm 19:1-4 NLT)

    GW1: Skies don’t speak. That’s just a metaphor. God does not exist. Ancient peoples, those present when the Bible was written, did not know this, but now in the 21st century we know that God does not exist.

    “For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.” (Romans 1:20 NLT)

    GW1: This is just flat out false! People have not seen the earth and sky from the time the Earth came to be. There were no people on the Earth for about 4.3 billion years! Now the tables have been turned – people today have no good excuse for believing in God.

    “Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens? Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance? Who can fathom the Spirit of the Lord, or instruct the Lord as his counselor? Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding? Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket; they are regarded as dust on the scales; he weighs the islands as though they were fine dust.. Before him all the nations are as nothing; they are regarded by him as worthless and less than nothing. With whom, then, will you compare God? To what image will you liken him? . He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.. `To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?’ says the Holy One.. Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.” (Isaiah 40:12-15, 17-18, 22, 25, 28 NIV)

    GW1: This just assumes God exists. It presents no good evidence, reasons, or arguments to think he exists. On the other hand, there are now conclusive arguments to show that God does not exist.

    “Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge? . The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power; in his justice and great righteousness, he does not oppress.” (Job 37:16, 23 NIV)

    GW1: There is nobody who has perfect knowledge. If any god does exist, he does oppress – through natural disasters, pandemics, cancer, etc. Natural disasters are clear evidence that God (the god of the Bible) does not exist!

    “Have you grasped the celestial laws? Could you make their writ run on the earth?” (Job 38:33 NJB)

    GW1: Yes, some cosmologists have grasped some of the celestial laws.

    RT1: The Universe had a Beginning

    “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1 CSB)

    GW1: Already covered this.

    RT1: The Universe is Expanding
    Early in the twentieth century, astronomer Edwin Hubble found that galaxies are moving away from each other. This discovery led him to believe that the universe is expanding. Hubble’s discovery was upsetting to many scientists of his time, because if the universe is expanding, then – at some time in the distant past – the universe had a beginning.

    GW1: Only that the expansion had a beginning. I covered this earlier.

    RT1: And if the universe had a beginning, it would confirm what the Bible had said all along.

    GW1: But the universe probably did not have a beginning. We can conclude this from: 1) First Law of Thermodynamics, 2) Occam’s Razor, and 3) Something cannot come from nothing. As we have seen, Genesis 1:1 contradicts what we know to be true about our universe. See above for more.

    RT1: Albert Einstein said the whole idea “irritated” him, although later in life he accepted the idea that the universe had a beginning.

    GW1: Not necessarily, as discussed previously.

    RT1: Arthur Eddington, a British mathematician and astronomer said that he hoped a “loophole” could be found to avoid the implication that the universe had a Creator.

    GW1: Many loopholes have be found since Eddington lived.

    RT1: But the prophets of the Bible knew that God had “stretched out the heavens” long before the expanding universe theory was proposed by Hubble and other twentieth century scientists. The prophets of the Bible had already revealed this in the Scriptures:

    GW1: The so-called “prophets of the Bible” were generally ignorant of cosmology, physics, chemistry, and biology.

    “He alone stretches out the heavens.” (Job 9:8 NIV)

    GW1: There is no “he” who does any stretching of the heavens. We stretch our bodies when we exercise.

    “He stretches out the heavens like a tent.” (Psalm 104:2 NIV)

    GW1: The heavens are nothing like a tent, although that is the way it seemed to ancient people. They thought that holes punched in the tent let starlight in.

    “He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.” (Isaiah 40:22 NIV)

    GW1: Same as above.

    “The Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out.” (Isaiah 42:5 NIV)

    GW1: Nobody stretches out heavens.

    “I am the Lord, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens.” (Isaiah 44:24 NIV)

    GW1: False assumption. No good evidence for this.

    “It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts.” (Isaiah 45:12 NIV)

    GW1: No good evidence for this. Good evidence against it.

    “My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.” (Isaiah 48:13 NIV)

    GW1: God has a right hand? Does he have a body? Does he have a penis? It appears that God was made in the image of Man.

    “You forget the Lord your Maker, who stretches out the heavens and who lays the foundations of the earth, that you live in constant terror every day because of the wrath of the oppressor, who is bent on destruction? For where is the wrath of the oppressor?” (Isaiah 51:13 NIV)

    GW1: If a god exists, then he is the oppressor. Just look at all the natural disasters.

    “But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.” (Jeremiah 10:12 NIV)

    GW1: What wisdom would produce natural disasters?

    “He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.” (Jeremiah 51:15 NIV)

    GW1: What understanding would produce cancer?

    “The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person.” (Zechariah 12:1 NIV)

    GW1: There is a brain within a person, but not a spirit. Spirits and souls don’t exist.

    RT1: As we can see, the Bible said all along what science has just recently discovered.

    GW1: As we can see, many of the claims of the Bible contradict the findings of science. We shouldn’t expect too much from the Bible. After all, it was written by ancient peoples two or three thousand years ago. They did not have the tools of thought, investigation, and exploration we have today. They cobbled together stories of origins the best they could, but we now see that they were mistaken about so many things.

    1. Science and it’s findings change over time since it’s whole foundation is “discovery”. I’m certain that the person who holds that there wasn’t a Creator or Intelligent Designer has never asked the question, where did this shirt and pants I’m wearing come from? Who made them? Who designed them to fit properly with both pant legs the same length? The house that I live in…who built it? Who was the engineer who approved its construction layout? Who’s hands put it together in a logical and functional manner so it is livable for humans? There obviously no reason to accept that someone did all these things, is it?? Now ask yourself, what about the human cell? From whom did its design come from??? Far more complex than clothing or shelter, which require a designer…you are wasting your time arguing with a person who simply will not acknowledge that there is a loving Creator of all things, who’s name and reputation has been dismissed and discredited and yet will soon solve all problems afflicting humankind. A true Savior to those who acknowledge mans single minded selfish course has put the entire human family on a path to destruction. Give it up and let people think what they want. That won’t change the outcome and there sad future..

      1. Mark—Thanks for your comment. You’re mostly correct when you say that people won’t change because they don’t want to know the truth about God. Jesus said that “the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:14 NASB). Why? Because “the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it” (Matthew 7:13 NASB). However, there is hope for those “few who find it”. Jesus said: “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many. I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able” (Luke 13:24 NASB). Therefore, we Christians are told: “Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:58 NIV). “How can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?” (Romans 10:14 NIV).

  2. M2: Science and it’s findings change over time since it’s whole foundation is “discovery”.

    GW2: Some conclusions of science have changed and some have remained stable. The whole foundation of science is objective observation and rational inference.

    M2: I’m certain that the person who holds that there wasn’t a Creator or Intelligent Designer has never asked the question, where did this shirt and pants I’m wearing come from? Who made them? Who designed them to fit properly with both pant legs the same length?

    GW2: You are mistaken in your certainty. We have wondered and discovered that the clothing we wear comes from factories where people are employed to make the clothes. The manufacturing standard is to make both pant legs the same length. However, now you might be able to custom order pants with different lengths of pant legs. Objects of clothing do not exist in nature. They don’t grow on trees.

    M2: The house that I live in.who built it? Who was the engineer who approved its construction layout? Who’s hands put it together in a logical and functional manner so it is livable for humans? There obviously no reason to accept that someone did all these things, is it??

    GW2: We are able to track down the answers and find out who made the house. This is not difficult.

    M2: Now ask yourself, what about the human cell? From whom did its design come from???

    GW2: You are begging the question by asking “from whom?” You don’t know that objects of nature were designed and produced by anyone! You are wishing that would be true without having any evidence for it.

    M2: Far more complex than clothing or shelter, which require a designer.you are wasting your time arguing with a person who simply will not acknowledge that there is a loving Creator of all things, who’s name and reputation has been dismissed and discredited and yet will soon solve all problems afflicting humankind.

    GW2: Sorry, you are just wishing that there were a Creator without having any good evidence for it. Besides, there could be a creator who is not God, and then Christianity would be out of business.

    M2: A true Savior to those who acknowledge mans single minded selfish course has put the entire human family on a path to destruction.

    GW2: Who is this true Savior who has put the entire human family on a path to destruction? And if there is one, why should anyone worship him?

    M2: Give it up and let people think what they want. That won’t change the outcome and there sad future..

    GW2: People can think what they want. Some will reach conclusions based on evidence and some won’t. That’s just the way it is.

    ***

    RT2: Mark-Thanks for your comment. You’re mostly correct when you say that people won’t change because they don’t want to know the truth about God.

    GW2: Neither you nor Mark has any good evidence that God even exists!

    RT2: Jesus said that “the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:14 NASB). Why? Because “the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it” (Matthew 7:13 NASB). However, there is hope for those “few who find it”. Jesus said: “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many. I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able” (Luke 13:24 NASB). Therefore, we Christians are told: “Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:58 NIV). “How can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?” (Romans 10:14 NIV).

    GW2: These are just opinions of a few men in ancient times. This is not evidence that God exists or even that a creator exists. If God exists, you and Mark should be able to prove this without the Bible. But you can’t.

  3. Gary—Thank you for your comments. Your strong commitment to Atheism is evident, as usual. However, the truth always survives all attacks against it. As far as “proving that God exists”, as you challenge, Can you prove that Nebuchadnezzar, one of the kings of the Neo-Babylon Empire existed (2 Kings 24,25; 2 Chronicles 36; Jeremiah 52; Daniel 1-4), “without the Bible”?—Well, yes, you can because there are lots of non-Biblical documents extant which mention him numerous times. However, if you’re dealing with a skeptic, who casts doubt on every ancient artifact and cuneiform tablet, etc, it may not be possible to prove it to him, because of his pre-commitment to skepticism.
    “By faith we understand that the universe was formed by God’s command, so that the visible came forth from the invisible”—Hebrews 11:3 REB
    The longer that time goes on, the more science makes the case for God’s existence! For example, the March 2020 issue of “ASTRONOMY NOW” magazine, page 16, speculates on top of known scientific facts, by saying: “Evidence for a mysterious process, which created an excess of matter over antimatter in the first fractions of a second of the Universe . . . In the Big Bang, matter and antimatter were created in equal amounts. when matter and antimatter are put together, the results are explosive as they instantly annihilate each other, producing nothing but photons. In that case, there should be nothing in the universe save for a sea of photons. Clearly that is not the case, since we see matter all around us. SOMETHING CLEARLY INTERVENED, BUT WHAT?”.

  4. RT3: Gary-Thank you for your comments. Your strong commitment to Atheism is evident, as usual.

    GW3: You are welcome.

    RT3: However, the truth always survives all attacks against it.

    GW3: I agree, and the truth is that God does not exist! The concept of God was invented by ancient human beings.

    RT3: As far as “proving that God exists”, as you challenge, Can you prove that Nebuchadnezzar, one of the kings of the Neo-Babylon Empire existed (2 Kings 24,25; 2 Chronicles 36; Jeremiah 52; Daniel 1-4), “without the Bible”?-Well, yes, you can because there are lots of non-Biblical documents extant which mention him numerous times.

    GW3: I’ve said this numerous times – if God did exist, you should be able to prove his existence without the Bible. I have challenged you to do that many times, but all you do in response is bring up more Bible verses. That is not helpful.

    RT3: However, if you’re dealing with a skeptic, who casts doubt on every ancient artifact and cuneiform tablet, etc, it may not be possible to prove it to him, because of his pre-commitment to skepticism.

    GW3: I am a skeptic, and you should be one too. I’m not asking you to prove that some verses of the Bible are true. Instead, I am asking you to prove that God exists without referring to the Bible. Where is your evidence from today?

    RT3: “By faith we understand that the universe was formed by God’s command, so that the visible came forth from the invisible”-Hebrews 11:3 REB

    GW3: There you go again – just quoting Bible verses. Show me some real current evidence.

    RT3: The longer that time goes on, the more science makes the case for God’s existence!

    GW3: Just the opposite is the case. The more science discovers, the fewer the gaps which a god can be used to fill.

    RT3: For example, the March 2020 issue of “ASTRONOMY NOW” magazine, page 16, speculates on top of known scientific facts, by saying: “Evidence for a mysterious process, which created an excess of matter over antimatter in the first fractions of a second of the Universe . . . In the Big Bang, matter and antimatter were created in equal amounts. when matter and antimatter are put together, the results are explosive as they instantly annihilate each other, producing nothing but photons. In that case, there should be nothing in the universe save for a sea of photons. Clearly that is not the case, since we see matter all around us. SOMETHING CLEARLY INTERVENED, BUT WHAT?”.

    GW3: We know almost nothing about what happened before the Big Bang, and that is why the author refers to a “mysterious process.” The author says nothing about God. Your hypothesis is just that “God caused it.” But you do not have sufficient evidence to reach that conclusion. You should not live your life on the basis of mere speculation.

    GW3: Once again, I challenge you or your sidekick Mark to prove that God exists by using real current evidence rather than attempting to prove it by quoting the Bible.

  5. Gary, the more time goes on, the more science makes the case for the Bible.
    “Ancient Earth was a water world with little or no dry land some 3.24 billion years ago, new research suggests. An early lack of sufficient dry land would have major implications on the origin and evolution of life, both for earth and other planets”—-Astronomy magazine, July 2020, page 9
    Scientists are discovering some of the very same things that the Bible said all along:
    “Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters”—-Genesis 1:2 HCSB

  6. RT4: Gary, the more time goes on, the more science makes the case for the Bible.

    GW4: I don’t believe your claim here for a moment. I don’t think there is evidence to support it. But anyway, it’s irrelevant to my challenge to you – if God does exist, you should be able to prove this without the use of the Bible. You haven’t even come close to doing that.

    RT4: “Ancient Earth was a water world with little or no dry land some 3.24 billion years ago, new research suggests. An early lack of sufficient dry land would have major implications on the origin and evolution of life, both for earth and other planets”–Astronomy magazine, July 2020, page 9

    GW4: According to science human beings gradually resulted from evolution from organisms in water, but according to the Bible, God created human beings all at once from the dust of the ground. This is a contradiction.

    RT4: Scientists are discovering some of the very same things that the Bible said all along:
    “Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters”–Genesis 1:2 HCSB

    GW4: Approximately 3.24 billion years ago the Earth was neither formless nor empty. Light from our sun covered the surface of the water. And God did not exist, does not exist, and will never exist. If you think he does, then I challenge you to prove it without using the Bible. You cannot do this, and thus there is no good reason to believe that God exists. You should just discard your belief and rely on facts to manage your life.

    GW4: If God did exist, then the Covid Pandemic would not exist. But the Pandemic does exist. Therefore, God does not exist.

  7. Scientists have numerous, and quite disputable, theories as to what they speculate may be the origins of life, but they have no scientific facts to prove any of it. It has been proven time and again that life can come only from pre-existing life. The late popular scientist and atheist Carl Sagan estimated the difficulty of the chance evolution of human life at 10 to -2,000,000,000, which is about 100% impossible.

  8. RT5: Scientists have numerous, and quite disputable, theories as to what they speculate may be the origins of life, but they have no scientific facts to prove any of it.

    GW5: Although I agree that scientists do not yet have “proof” that life originated naturally on the Earth, probably in water, they do have good evidence for this. On the other hand, you have little or no evidence, outside the Bible, that life originated supernaturally on the Earth, being placed there by some god. So, we should believe the stronger hypothesis which is the former one.

    RT5: It has been proven time and again that life can come only from pre-existing life.

    GW5: Here you are distorting the fact of the matter. To be closer to the truth, you should have said “It has been demonstrated time and again that living things have come from pre-existing living things.” However, we do know that there was a time on Earth when there was no life at all! So, how did it originate? The hypothesis with the most evidence is that complex molecules naturally combined in an “energy pool” to produce the first living thing. Then evolution took over, and here we are!

    RT5: The late popular scientist and atheist Carl Sagan estimated the difficulty of the chance evolution of human life at 10 to -2,000,000,000, which is about 100% impossible.

    GW5: But even at those odds, it is not impossible. Since Sagan’s time, many biologists have concluded that it is currently impossible to calculate the odds of life originating on a planet. So far, we only know of one planet on which there is certainly life, and on that one planet it is likely that life originated from nonlife and we humans evolved from the primitive life forms. That’s 1 out of 1, or 100%!

    GW5: On the other hand, it has been proven that God does not exist, and you have not proven that God does exist. Unfortunately, most of what you do is quote the Bible which just contains the opinions of ancient men which happen to agree with your opinion. What good does that do?

  9. You say that “couples molecules combined in an ‘energy pool’ to produce the first living thing”. What was the composition of these “complex molecules”? Where did this come from? How did these “complex molecules” form? What was the composition of the “energy pool”? How did it form? Where did it come from? What experimental evidence is there to demonstrate that life can originate form non-life?

  10. RT6: You say that “couples molecules combined in an `energy pool’ to produce the first living thing”.

    GW6: No, I did not say that! Please quote me accurately. I said “The hypothesis with the most evidence is that complex molecules naturally combined in an ‘energy pool’ to produce the first living thing.”

    RT6: What was the composition of these “complex molecules”?

    GW6: They were molecules containing the element carbon, although the exact composition is not yet known.

    RT6: Where did this come from?

    GW6: Stars

    RT6: How did these “complex molecules” form?

    GW6: Nucleosynthesis in stars, also random collisions in an “energy pool.”

    RT6: What was the composition of the “energy pool”?

    GW6: The exact nature of the energy pool is not known, but the prime candidates are hot vents in the seas, volcanic activity, lightning, and meteor collisions, or several of these.

    RT6: How did it form?

    GW6: Naturally. According to the laws of nature.

    RT6: Where did it come from?

    GW6: Ultimately everything comes from the primordial particle of the Big Bang, but otherwise things come from nucleosynthesis in stars.

    RT6: What experimental evidence is there to demonstrate that life can originate form non-life?

    GW6: There are two lines of evidence. The first is that even though the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, fossils and relics of life are only 3.5 billion years old. No evidence of life was followed by evidence of life on the Earth. The second line is that there have been many laboratory experiments creating the building blocks of life, including amino acids, from simple inorganic molecules. However, the exact process that led to the origin of life on Earth is not yet known.

    GW6: On the other hand, it has been proven that God does not exist and thus did not create life on the Earth.

    1. Let’s see now—You claim that “complex molecules” likely combined in an “energy pool”, yet you admit that you don’t know what made up either of them, and “the exact process that led to the origin of life on earth is unknown”!!!!
      You assert that “nucleosynthesis in stars” is one source of “complex molecules” on earth. How could “complex molecules” be born in stars that are hundreds, or thousands, of degrees F hot? Since the nearest stars are light years away, how did these “complex molecules” survive the trip through space?
      You also claim that “it has been proven that God does not exist”!!!! Where is this “proof”????
      Where did “the laws of nature” come from? How did they originate?

      1. RT7: Let’s see now-You claim that “complex molecules” likely combined in an “energy pool”, yet you admit that you don’t know what made up either of them, and “the exact process that led to the origin of life on earth is unknown”!!!!

        GW7: What’s the problem with that? I’m not going to invent concepts, like God, to fill the gaps of the unknown. I’ve told you what the scientific consensus is about what probably happened.

        RT7: You assert that “nucleosynthesis in stars” is one source of “complex molecules” on earth. How could “complex molecules” be born in stars that are hundreds, or thousands, of degrees F hot?

        GW7: In the early universe there was mostly hydrogen and some helium. Not until stars were formed were the heavier elements produced. Carbon was one of these and it is the most common ingredient of life on Earth. For more on this process, Google “nucleosynthesis.”

        RT7: Since the nearest stars are light years away, how did these “complex molecules” survive the trip through space?

        GW7: Our own sun is only 91.4 million miles from the Earth, not even one light year. Some of the molecules came from our own sun, some from other suns, and some from the debris of space. Meteors and asteroids have been the primary carriers of these atoms and molecules. Yes, various atoms and molecules can and do survive the trip through space. They are usually embedded within the meteors and asteroids.

        RT7: You also claim that “it has been proven that God does not exist”!!!! Where is this “proof”????

        GW7: There are several proofs of this, but here is just one:
        1. If God did exist, then the Great Tsunami of 2004 would not have occurred.
        2. But the Great Tsunami of 2004 did occur.
        3. Therefore, God does not exist.

        RT7: Where did “the laws of nature” come from? How did they originate?

        GW7: You are begging the question. Did they come from anything? Did they originate? Perhaps they are just brute facts about reality. If God could be a brute fact, then the laws of nature could just as easily be a brute fact.

  11. “Every house is built by someone, of course; but God built everything that exists”—Hebrews 3:4 NJB
    There can be no laws, physical or moral, without a lawgiver (Isaiah 33:22; Job 38:33). Where is proof that something can come from nothing? Where is proof that life can come from non-living matter?

  12. RT8: “Every house is built by someone, of course; but God built everything that exists”-Hebrews 3:4 NJB

    GW8: There you go again – just quoting Bible verses. If God exists, then you should be able to prove this without using an ancient book written by men in pre-scientific age.

    RT8: There can be no laws, physical or moral, without a lawgiver (Isaiah 33:22; Job 38:33).

    GW8: That is only half-correct. There are two kinds of laws. Physical laws are descriptions of the way the universe works, whereas moral laws are prescriptions for behavior, i.e. what persons should and should not do. The former require no lawgiver, whereas the latter require one or more persons to formulate.

    RT8: Where is proof that something can come from nothing?

    GW8: As far as I know, there is no such proof. But this idea is a straw man. I don’t believe something can come from nothing. I believe that the universe in one form or another has always existed. We know the universe exists, but where is the proof that God exists? Now we have proof that God does not exist!

    RT8: Where is proof that life can come from non-living matter?

    GW8: There is evidence that before 3.5 billion years ago there was no life on Earth and that after 3.5 billion years ago there was life on Earth. This may not be proof, but it is evidence leading to a reasonable conclusion that living matter came from non-living matter.

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