Colossians 1- Deity of Christ ..." width="225" height="225" data-ilt="1735243412172" />
The Trinity doctrine says that Jesus, the Son of God, is not a creature, but is Almighty God himself. However, could it possibly be true that Jesus is a creature who has God over him? If Jesus is a creature with God over him, the Trinity doctrine is proven false. The following is a discussion with a Trinitarian about these and related issues. “T” stands for Trinitarian, and “BA” stands for us at this website.
BA—Since the Bible says he is “the firstborn of every creature” (Col 1:15 KJV), “whose origin is from of old, from ancient days” (Micah 5:2 NRSV). T – The firstborn of every creature; not the first of the creation, or the first creature God made; for all things in Colossians 1:16 are said to be created by him, and therefore he himself can never be a creature.
BA—The Bible calls him a “creature” (Col 1:15 KJV), “the firstborn of all creation . . . all things were created through him” (Col 1:15 ESV). He is part of God’s creation. God created everything else through Jesus.
T—Christ, as the King, Lord, and Governor of all creatures; being God’s firstborn, he is heir of all things, the right of government belongs to him; he is higher than the kings of the earth, or the angels in heaven, the highest rank of creatures,
BA—Absolutely true, yes!!!! He has the highest rank of creatures, meaning he’s a creature!!!!
T—being the Creator
BA—No, Jesus is never called creator. Only Yahweh is: “The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth” (Isaiah 40:28 ESV). Only the “Sovereign Lord, who made heaven and earth and the sea and everything in them, who” has his “holy servant Jesus” (Acts 4:24,27 ESV) is the Creator.
T—and upholder of all, as the following words show; so the Jews make the word “firstborn” to be synonymous with the word “king”, and explain it by , “a great one”, and “a prince” (h); see Psalm 89:27.
BA—“I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27 ESV). Two things (that are not synonymous) that Yahweh does for Jesus. It clearly shows that Yahweh is supreme over all, including Jesus.
T—Why do you change from the KJV to the NRSV translation? If you would have stuck with the KJV, Micah 5:2 says “whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Yes, Jesus’ goings forth as the Messenger of the Lord have been from of old.
BA—KJV is an excellent translation of Col 1:15. NRSV is an excellent translation of Mic 5:2. We have many translations in English, and the freedom to choose which is the best in each situation.
BA—The Greek word dia means “through” or “by means of”. It does not means simply “by”. T – The KJV translates Strong’s G1223 in the following manner: by (241x), through (88x), with (16x), for (58x), for … sake (47x), therefore (with G5124) (44x), for this cause (with G5124) (14x), because (52x), miscellaneous (86x).
BA—KJV’s renderings of dia don’t change its meaning.
BA—Sorry for the inadvertent scripture citation omission. Here it is: “they had a VISION of God” (Exodus 24:11 Moffatt; The Emphasized Bible). “They stayed there before God” (Exodus 24:11 New English Bible). It is impossible that they literally saw Yahweh God. “Yahweh said . . . no one can see me and survive” (Exodus 33:19,20 NJB). Thus, the Trinitarian assertion that Jesus is Yahweh is contradicted by scripture. T – Out of 57 translations, 55 of them say “they saw (or gazed or beheld) God. See for yourself: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Exodus%2024%3A11
BA—We’re well aware. However, the majority isn’t always right.
T—Another example: ” And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth” (Exodus 34:5-6). This is also an example of the LORD using the third person to refer to Himself.
BA—Yes, and immediately prior to this, “Yahweh said . . . ‘ no human being can see me and survive” (Ex 33:19,20 NJB), so it is impossible that Moses literally saw Yahweh. He only got a glimpse of his glory. “When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD” (Ex 34:29 NIV).
T—“Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts” (Isaiah 6:6). Doesn’t say anything about a “vision.” “I saw the LORD standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake” (Amos 9:1). No vision mentioned. There are many other examples. I agree that no one has seen God, the Father as He is invisible, but several individuals have seen God, the Son, and the Messenger of the Lord (2nd Person of the Trinity). That is the only explanation to how they could have seen God or the LORD. He is the image of the invisible God.
BA—Since “No one has ever seen God” (1 Jn 4:12 NIV), these had to have been visions. Jesus made clear that he is not “Yahweh” (Ps 110:1; Mt 22:41-46).
BA—Luke 16:19-31 is a parable. “Abraham’s bosom” is not literal, but represents a postion of favor with God. T – Once again, only your interpretation. Where does it say that it is not literal and only represents a position of favor with God in the Bible?
BA—“Jesus always spoke “to the crowds in parables” (Mt 13:34 ESV). “The Pharisees” were in the audience when he spoke this parable. This is listed as one of Jesus’ many parables.
BA—Jesus is “God” in the same sense that the Hebrew king was “God” to the people of Israel (Psalm 45:6). “O God: the king, in courtly language, is called “god”, i.e., more than human, representing God to the people” (NAB note on Psalm 45:6). T – Hebrews 1:8-9 is referring to Jesus Christ, the Son, and is quoting from Psalm 45:6-7. So, I am sure Psalm 45:6-7 is a prophecy concerning King Jesus.
BA—It is, however, its initial application is to the Hebrew king in power at the time. Besides, in Heb 1:9 “God” is called Jesus’ “God”, which plainly shows that Jesus cannot be Almighty God.
Our discussion from the scriptures plainly shows us that the Bible tells us that Jesus is a creature, who has God over him.
The Trinity doctrine says that Jesus, the Son of God, is not a creature, but is Almighty God himself. However, could it possibly be true that Jesus is a creature who has God over him? If Jesus is a creature with God over him, the Trinity doctrine is proven false. The following is a discussion with a Trinitarian about these and related issues. “T” stands for Trinitarian, and “BA” stands for us at this website.
BA—Since the Bible says he is “the firstborn of every creature” (Col 1:15 KJV), “whose origin is from of old, from ancient days” (Micah 5:2 NRSV).
T – The firstborn of every creature; not the first of the creation, or the first creature God made; for all things in Colossians 1:16 are said to be created by him, and therefore he himself can never be a creature.
BA—The Bible calls him a “creature” (Col 1:15 KJV), “the firstborn of all creation . . . all things were created through him” (Col 1:15 ESV). He is part of God’s creation. God created everything else through Jesus.
T—Christ, as the King, Lord, and Governor of all creatures; being God’s firstborn, he is heir of all things, the right of government belongs to him; he is higher than the kings of the earth, or the angels in heaven, the highest rank of creatures,
BA—Absolutely true, yes!!!! He has the highest rank of creatures, meaning he’s a creature!!!!
T—being the Creator
BA—No, Jesus is never called creator. Only Yahweh is: “The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth” (Isaiah 40:28 ESV). Only the “Sovereign Lord, who made heaven and earth and the sea and everything in them, who” has his “holy servant Jesus” (Acts 4:24,27 ESV) is the Creator.
T—and upholder of all, as the following words show; so the Jews make the word “firstborn” to be synonymous with the word “king”, and explain it by , “a great one”, and “a prince” (h); see Psalm 89:27.
BA—“I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27 ESV). Two things (that are not synonymous) that Yahweh does for Jesus. It clearly shows that Yahweh is supreme over all, including Jesus.
T—Why do you change from the KJV to the NRSV translation? If you would have stuck with the KJV, Micah 5:2 says “whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Yes, Jesus’ goings forth as the Messenger of the Lord have been from of old.
BA—KJV is an excellent translation of Col 1:15. NRSV is an excellent translation of Mic 5:2. We have many translations in English, and the freedom to choose which is the best in each situation.
BA—The Greek word dia means “through” or “by means of”. It does not means simply “by”.
T – The KJV translates Strong’s G1223 in the following manner: by (241x), through (88x), with (16x), for (58x), for … sake (47x), therefore (with G5124) (44x), for this cause (with G5124) (14x), because (52x), miscellaneous (86x).
BA—KJV’s renderings of dia don’t change its meaning.
BA—Sorry for the inadvertent scripture citation omission. Here it is: “they had a VISION of God” (Exodus 24:11 Moffatt; The Emphasized Bible). “They stayed there before God” (Exodus 24:11 New English Bible). It is impossible that they literally saw Yahweh God. “Yahweh said . . . no one can see me and survive” (Exodus 33:19,20 NJB). Thus, the Trinitarian assertion that Jesus is Yahweh is contradicted by scripture.
T – Out of 57 translations, 55 of them say “they saw (or gazed or beheld) God. See for yourself: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Exodus%2024%3A11
BA—We’re well aware. However, the majority isn’t always right.
T—Another example: ” And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth” (Exodus 34:5-6). This is also an example of the LORD using the third person to refer to Himself.
BA—Yes, and immediately prior to this, “Yahweh said . . . ‘ no human being can see me and survive” (Ex 33:19,20 NJB), so it is impossible that Moses literally saw Yahweh. He only got a glimpse of his glory. “When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD” (Ex 34:29 NIV).
T—“Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts” (Isaiah 6:6). Doesn’t say anything about a “vision.”
“I saw the LORD standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake” (Amos 9:1). No vision mentioned. There are many other examples.
I agree that no one has seen God, the Father as He is invisible, but several individuals have seen God, the Son, and the Messenger of the Lord (2nd Person of the Trinity). That is the only explanation to how they could have seen God or the LORD. He is the image of the invisible God.
BA—Since “No one has ever seen God” (1 Jn 4:12 NIV), these had to have been visions. Jesus made clear that he is not “Yahweh” (Ps 110:1; Mt 22:41-46).
BA—Luke 16:19-31 is a parable. “Abraham’s bosom” is not literal, but represents a postion of favor with God.
T – Once again, only your interpretation. Where does it say that it is not literal and only represents a position of favor with God in the Bible?
BA—“Jesus always spoke “to the crowds in parables” (Mt 13:34 ESV). “The Pharisees” were in the audience when he spoke this parable. This is listed as one of Jesus’ many parables.
BA—Jesus is “God” in the same sense that the Hebrew king was “God” to the people of Israel (Psalm 45:6). “O God: the king, in courtly language, is called “god”, i.e., more than human, representing God to the people” (NAB note on Psalm 45:6).
T – Hebrews 1:8-9 is referring to Jesus Christ, the Son, and is quoting from Psalm 45:6-7. So, I am sure Psalm 45:6-7 is a prophecy concerning King Jesus.
BA—It is, however, its initial application is to the Hebrew king in power at the time. Besides, in Heb 1:9 “God” is called Jesus’ “God”, which plainly shows that Jesus cannot be Almighty God.
Our discussion from the scriptures plainly shows us that the Bible tells us that Jesus is a creature, who has God over him.