JESUS’ BURIAL BY JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA
Although all four Biblical gospels report that Joseph of Arimathea buried Jesus’ dead body (Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:42:47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42), there are some skeptics and critics, such as the currently prominent agnostic Biblical “scholar” Bart Ehrman, who deny this fact. Experts point out that the more independent witnesses reports of an event are available, the more likely the report is true. Matthew and John were disciples of Jesus at the time of his execution and its aftermath. So was Peter, who used Mark as his writer of the second Biblical gospel. Luke was familiar with “eyewitness reports circulating . . . from the early disciples” and says, “Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, [he] also decided to write an accurate account” (Luke 1:1-3 NLT). So Luke’s gospel was based on eyewitness accounts.
“There came a rich man from Arimathea named Joseph”—Matthew 27:57 NIV
“Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders”—John 19:38 NIV
Joseph was a wealthy, secret disciple of Jesus. His wealth allowed him to own a newly-cut tomb, which was available Jesus’ unexpected death.
“Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the council, a good and upright man, who had not consented to their decision and action. He came from the Judean town of Arimathea, and he himself was waiting for the kingdom of God”—Luke 23:50,51 NIV
“Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council”—Mark 15:42 NIV
Joseph of Arimathea was “a prominent member” of the 71 member Jewish Sanhedrin High Court “Council”, but had opposed their condemnation of Jesus. This, and the fact that “the whole Sanhedrin . . . They all condemned him to death” (Mark 14:55,64 NIV), proves that Joseph of Arimathea was not present at the hastily convened, middle of the night meeting of the Sanhedrin.
” . . . went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body”—Mark 15:42 NIV
Joesph’s bold, courageous action here contrasts sharply with his formerly secret discipleship.
“Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus . . . He was accompanied by Nicodemu, the man who had earlier visited Jesus at night”—John 19:38,39 NIV
Who was Nicodemus?—“Nicodemus, who was a member of the Jewish ruling council” (John 3:1 NIV)
“Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus had already died. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph”—Mark 15:44,45 NIV
Crucifixion victims often survived for days before dying, because the Romans usually let criminals stay on their crosses for two or three days until they died, and then vultures and/or wild animals would eat them, or they would rot. Jesus died on the cross in only 3-6 hours, which was very unusual, and this naturally surprised Pilate.
“With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away”—John 19:38 NIV
Without official permission, people could take the bodies of their executed family members/friends before they died, and revive them. A simple burial was more common in Palestine because of Jewish scruples about corpses. Pilate was sensitive to the Jews’ Biblical objections to leaving a dead “body hanging on [a] pole overnight” (Deuteronomy 21:22,23 NIV). What is also interesting is that Pilate, after the centurion in charge of the crucifixion certified Jesus’ death, gave Joseph Jesus’ body without demanding the bribe that families sometimes had to pay to retrieve the bodies of their loved ones. Additionally, the release of the body of someone condemned for high high treason, and especially to someone who wasn’t a close relative was very unusual. Joseph’s prominence and influential status may be why he was granted permission by Pilate to give Jesus a proper burial. This also may support what the gospels rep0rt about Pilate in the trial scenes as finding Jesus and his followers harmless to Roman rule. Otherwise, he probably wouldn’t have released Jesus’ body to his followers.
“So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb”—Mark 15:46 NIV
“Joseph took the boat, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away”—Matthew 27:60 NIV
All four gospel accounts report that Joseph of Arimathea buried Jesus’ body. The entry to the tomb was blocked by the “big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb”. The next morning, “the chief priests and Pharisees” were given permission by Pilate to “‘take a guard'” and “‘make the tomb as secure as you know how.’ So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard” (Matthew 27:62,65,66 NIV). The tomb was not disturbed at that point, because these opposers of Jesus would surely have claimed his disciples “came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep,” as they bribed “the guards” to say the next day, after the stone was rolled away and the tomb empty, while the guards were guarding the tomb (Matthew 28:11-15 NIV).
“At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no had ever been laid . . . they laid Jesus there”—John 19:41,42 NIV
John’s account additionally reports that Joesph was accompanied by Nicodemus, another member of the Sanhedrin, in burying Jesus’ body. However, Bart Ehrman claims “the whole Sanhedrin” (Mark 14:65 NIV) buried Jesus’ body, based primarily on:
“The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus . . . Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb”—Acts 13:27-29 NIV
Ehrman’s view is contradicted by the four gospels accounts, and this account in Acts certainly doesn’t support his view–unless it is taken out of context, in isolation from the rest of the scriptures. The fact is that two members of the Sanhedrin, Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, did bury Jesus’ body, so there is no contradiction between Acts 13:27-29 and the four gospels regarding Jesus’ burial.
48 thoughts on “JESUS’ BURIAL BY JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA”
RT: Although all four Biblical gospels report that Joseph of Arimathea buried Jesus’ dead body (Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:42:47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42), there are some skeptics and critics, such as the currently prominent agnostic Biblical “scholar” Bart Ehrman, who deny this fact.
GW: It is a fact that all four Gospels mention the story of the burial of Jesus by Joseph, but this does not mean that the story itself is a fact. You keep forgetting that there is not a single first-person, author-identified, low-bias, promptly written, eye-witness report of anything done or said by Jesus or anything happening to Jesus during his entire life or the immediate aftermath. ZERO! Where are the critical reports from Joseph, Pilate, or Jesus? Nobody has them. As far as we know they don’t exist! All you have are stories which are not extraordinary evidence and wouldn’t even be accepted in court.
RT: Experts point out that the more independent witnesses reports of an event are available, the more likely the report is true.
GW: I agree, but you don’t have any witness reports. None!
RT: Matthew and John were disciples of Jesus at the time of his execution and its aftermath.
GW: Maybe they were, but you don’t have any witness reports from them.
RT: So was Peter, who used Mark as his writer of the second Biblical gospel.
GW: Ok, so Mark was not a witness. How do you know Peter was a witness? You don’t. You just assume he was without good evidence. How do you know Mark wrote what Peter dictated? You don’t. You just make unjustified assumptions.
RT: Luke was familiar with “eyewitness reports circulating . . . from the early disciples” and says, “Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, [he] also decided to write an accurate account” (Luke 1:1-3 NLT). So Luke’s gospel was based on eyewitness accounts.
GW: Luke was not a witness. What witnesses did Luke interview? He doesn’t say. When did he interview them? He doesn’t say. What did they tell him? He doesn’t quote them. Luke’s Gospel amounts to hearsay, which is not good enough.
“There came a rich man from Arimathea named Joseph”—Matthew 27:57 NIV
“Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders”—John 19:38 NIV
Joseph was a wealthy, secret disciple of Jesus. His wealth allowed him to own a newly-cut tomb, which was available Jesus’ unexpected death.
“Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the council, a good and upright man, who had not consented to their decision and action. He came from the Judean town of Arimathea, and he himself was waiting for the kingdom of God”—Luke 23:50,51 NIV
“Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council”—Mark 15:42 NIV
GW: This is just a repetition of the stories you already presented. See my earlier comments about the problems.
RT: Joseph of Arimathea was “a prominent member” of the 71 member Jewish Sanhedrin High Court “Council”, but had opposed their condemnation of Jesus.
GW: What is your source for a 71 member Sanhedrin?
RT: This, and the fact that “the whole Sanhedrin . . . They all condemned him to death” (Mark 14:55,64 NIV), proves that Joseph of Arimathea was not present at the hastily convened, middle of the night meeting of the Sanhedrin.
GW: Maybe Joseph was there and voted for condemnation and later changed his mind. We don’t know. The people at the meeting were not named, except for one man – the head priest.
RT: ” . . . went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body”—Mark 15:42 NIV
Joesph’s bold, courageous action here contrasts sharply with his formerly secret discipleship.
“Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus . . . He was accompanied by Nicodemu, the man who had earlier visited Jesu at night”—John 19:38,39 NIV
Who was Nicodemus?—“Nicodemas, who was a member of the Jewish ruling council” (John 3:1 NIV)
GW: Where is the witness report of Nicodemas? Oh, that’s right – you don’t have one. You rely on hearsay evidence at best.
RT: “Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus had already died. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph”—Mark 15:44,45 NIV
GW: In my book I raised the hypothesis that Jesus had NOT already died. The centurion may have been mistaken or been bribed to say that Jesus had died. This is certainly possible.
GW: In addition, it is unlikely that Pilate would have granted the body to Joseph because Joseph was not the chairman or chief priest of the Sanhedrin! This gives more weight to Ehrman’s idea that Jesus was never buried in a tomb, as described in the story.
RT: Crucifixion victims often survived for days before dying, because the Romans usually let criminals stay on their crosses for two or three days until they died, and then vultures and/or wild animals would eat them, or they would rot. Jesus died on the cross in only 3-6 hours, which was very unusual, naturally surprised Pilate.
GW: Yes, I already made these points. And so, it is possible that Jesus wasn’t dead when the centurion said he was. See my book for more information on this.
RT: “With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away”—John 19:38 NIV
GW: That’s the story we now have.
RT: Without official permission, people could take the bodies of their executed family members/friends before they died, and revive them.
GW: I doubt it. Evidence? I don’t think Pilate would allow anyone to take down early the body of a Jew whom the powerful Jews had asked Pilate to exectute.
RT: A simple burial was more common in Palestine because of Jewish scruples about corpses.
GW: Not for victims of crucifixion which was ordered by the Roman state, personified and served by Pilate.
RT: Pilate was sensitive to the Jews Biblical objections to leaving a dead “body hanging on [a] pole overnight” (Deuteronomy 21:22,23 NIV).
GW: Those verses from the OT do not mention Pilate or Romans. Those verses apply to Jewish practices. Jesus was actually crucified by the Romans, not the Jews.
RT: What is also interesting is that Pilate, after the centurion in charge of the crucifixion certified Jesus’ death, gave Joseph Jesus’ body without demanding the bribe that families sometimes had to pay to retrieve the bodies of their loved ones.
GW: Maybe Joseph just offered money, and Pilate didn’t have to demand it. Or maybe Pilate didn’t allow Joseph to have the body and the story about the tomb is a fabrication.
RT: Additionally, the release of the body of someone condemned for high high treason, and especially to someone who wasn’t a close relative was very unusual.
GW: Yes, this could be one reason why Joseph was never given the body of Jesus by Pilate.
RT: Joseph’s prominence and influential status may be why he was granted permission by Pilate to give Jesus a proper burial. This also may support what the gospels rep0rt about Pilate in the trial scenes as finding Jesus and his followers harmless to Roman rule. Otherwise, he probably wouldn’t have released Jesus’ body to his followers.
GW: It is likely that Pilate ordered Jesus to be crucified and it is unlikely that he allowed Jesus’ body to be removed early from the cross and be moved to a tomb for a “proper Jewish burial.” I think Ehrman is probably right.
RT: “So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb”—Mark 15:46 NIV
GW: That’s the story.
RT: “Joseph took the boat [body?], wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away”—Matthew 27:60 NIV
RT: All four gospel accounts report that Joseph of Arimathea buried Jesus’ body. The entry to the tomb was blocked by the “big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb”.
GW: This is the story described in the Gospels. No eyewitness reports, however.
RT: The next morning, “the chief priests and Pharisees” were given permission by Pilate to “‘take a guard'” and “‘make the tomb as secure as you know how.’ So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard” (Matthew 27:62,65,66 NIV). The tomb was not disturbed at that point, because these opposers of Jesus would surely have claimed his disciples “came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep,” as they bribed “the guards” to say the next day, after the stone was rolled away and the tomb empty, while the guards were guarding the tomb (Matthew 28:11-15 NIV).
GW: This story of the guards is presented only in Matthew and in one of the other three Gospels, and so I regard it as a fabrication. There were no guards at the tomb when the women arrived because there were never any guards posted there.
RT: “At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no had ever been laid . . . they laid Jesus there”—John 19:41,42 NIV
GW: Same story, all hearsay.
RT: John’s account additionally reports that Joesph was accompanied by Nicodemas, another member of the Sanhedrin, in burying Jesus’ body. However, Bart Ehrman claims “the whole Sanhedrin” (Mark 14:65 NIV) buried Jesus’ body, based primarily on:
“The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus . . . Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb”—Acts 13:27-29 NIV
GW: Do you have evidence that Ehrman made that claim? If so, produce the quote, citation, and link. I haven’t seen anything even close to that.
RT: Ehrman’s view is contradicted by the four gospels accounts, and this account in Acts certainly doesn’t support his view–unless it is taken out of context, in isolation from the rest of the scriptures.
GW: Paul never said Jesus was buried in a TOMB and furthermore he was not an eyewitness to any events around the time of Jesus’s death. Yes, Ehrman’s view that Jesus was probably buried in a common grave contradicts the Gospel story that Jesus was buried in a tomb. Which view is probably correct? We don’t know. I’d say its 50-50.
RT: The fact is that two members of the Sanhedrin, Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, did bury Jesus’ body, so there is no contradiction between Acts 13:27-29 and the four gospels regarding Jesus’ burial..
GW: Once again we do not have the proper reports of eye-witnesses to draw valid conclusions.
GW: However, even if we accept your assumption that Joseph and Nicodemus buried Jesus in the tomb, we can still be confident that even if God did exist, he did not bring Jesus back to life. How can we be confident of this? Because if God had done it, then he would have arranged for one of two scenarios to occur: 1). When the women arrived at the tomb on Sunday morning, then the alive Jesus would have pushed back the stone, exited the tomb, and interacted with the women – talking to them and touching them. Or 2) When the women arrived at the tomb on Sunday morning, then they would have brought a couple of men with them to help push back the stone. (They would have known that they would be too weak to push back the stone by themselves.) So, after the two men pushed back the stone, then two or more of the group would have entered the tomb and would have seen Jesus come back to life RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR EYES, rising from the slab and then interacting with them. Both men and women would have seen the risen Jesus around that moment. Regardless of which of these two scenarios God would have arranged, it would have all been carefully documented and preserved to the present day. This did not happen. If he existed and wanted to cause a resurrection of Jesus, God would NOT have been incompetent. He would have set up things perfectly so that more people would believe that the resurrection actually happened. There is NOT a single eyewitness report from anyone who actually saw Jesus rise from the dead. ZERO. This is a serious problem for Christians and for your view in particular.
“According to rabbinic sources, the Jerusalem Sanhedrin was composed of 71 members, reflecting the Biblical practice instituted by Moses (70 elders plus Moses; see Ex 24:1,9; Nu 11:16).”—Archaeological Study Bible
“The council was composed of 71 members including the presiding officer, the high priest then in office”—Dictionary of the Bible by John L. McKenzie, S. J.
There is no problem at all! Your ideas about what God should and would do are irrelevant. “Who directed the spirit of Yahweh, what counellor could have instructed him?” (Isaiah 40:13 NJB).
There were many eyewitnesses to Jesus’ death (Matthew 27:55,56; Mark 15:40,41; Luke 23:47-49; John 19:35). Jesus’ death was officially certified to the Roman governor (Mark 15:44,45). There is no question that Jesus was dead when he was entombed.
There were literally hundreds of eyewitnesses of Jesus after he had been resurrected (Matthew 28:1-8,16-20; Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24:1-52; John 20:11-29; 21:1-21; 1 Corinthians 15:3-8). “After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive” (Acts 1:3 NIV).
RT: There is no problem at all!
GW: There are so many problems with your ideas that they cannot be true.
RT: Your ideas about what God should and would do are irrelevant.
GW: False. They have the same relevance as your ideas or the ideas of the Bible writers. But my ideas happen to be rational and correct, whereas yours and those of the Gospel writers happen to be incorrect, if God did exist (which he doesn’t). The god you refer to isn’t even God. Your god is too small or too weak.
RT: “Who directed the spirit of Yahweh, what counellor could have instructed him?” (Isaiah 40:13 NJB).
GW: If God did exist, nobody would direct or instruct him, but he doesn’t exist, as I have already proven many times.
RT: There were many eyewitnesses to Jesus’ death (Matthew 27:55,56; Mark 15:40,41; Luke 23:47-49; John 19:35).
GW: You don’t know this. Where are the eyewitness reports? You don’t have any! And so, you cannot conclude that there were any eyewitnesses or if there were, you have no idea what they saw.
RT: Jesus’ death was officially certified to the Roman governor (Mark 15:44,45).
GW: The story says that the centurion reported to Pilate that Jesus was dead, but the centurion had not examined Jesus up close before the time, could be mistaken, or could have accepted a bribe.
RT: There is no question that Jesus was dead when he was entombed.
GW: Of course there are doubts that he was dead! I identified these doubts in my book. Haven’t you read the book? There is no eye witness report of any examination of Jesus and declaration of death by any kind of medical expert when Jesus was removed from the cross. There is not even a report that the centurion examined Jesus up close. The fact that Jesus “appeared to be dead” earlier than expected is more evidence that he might not have been dead. It is possible he went into a coma for awhile.
RT: There were literally hundreds of eyewitnesses of Jesus after he had been resurrected (Matthew 28:1-8,16-20; Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24:1-52; John 20:11-29; 21:1-21; 1 Corinthians 15:3-8).
GW: No. You are confusing stories with reports. There is actually only one first-person claim by one person of an experience of Jesus after the crucifixion. This was the claim by Paul about his trip on the road to Damascus, and we can see that this experience is best explained as a hallucination. Otherwise, there are no first-person, author-identified, low-bias, promptly-written, eyewitness reports of anything about the life and death of Jesus. All you have are stories, and all of them could be fabrications.
RT: “After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive” (Acts 1:3 NIV).
GW: Who are them? Where are their reports? Convincing to whom? Where are their reports? What would a proof look like in these circumstances? You’ve got nothing but hearsay, rumors, speculations, myths, and especially wishful thinking.
Ok, I will accept that as sufficient evidence that the Sanhedrin had 71 members. If the Sanhedrin met the night before the day when Jesus was crucified, we don’t know how many members of it were present or if Joseph was present. I would suspect that Joseph was not present. If he had been, then I think the stories would say he was present. The stories do say, however, that the high priest was present. I do not believe that Pilate would have given the body of Jesus to Joseph without the approval of the high priest. This is support for Ehrman’s hypothesis that Pilate never granted the body to Joseph for entombment. As I said, I think these competing hypotheses are 50-50 likely.
However, even if the body was entombed, most of the rest of the story is probably false.
The most important fact to remember: There are no first-person, author-identified, low-bias, promptly-written eyewitness reports for any of this. There are much better naturalistic explanations than the fanciful resurrection hypothesis.
Ehrman doesn’t know what he’s talking about!
Pilate didn’t need the approval of the high priest to grant Jesus’ body to Joseph. They needed Pilate for Jesus to be executed. “The Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphus to the palace of the Roman governor” (John 19:28 NIV). Especially after the Jewish religious leaders had wrung the death sentence of him, Pilate was quite outdone with them, as his curt retorts to them indicate. The religious leaders needed to ask Pilate to change the sign he wrote, and he refused (John 19:21,22). They also had to ask Pilate for permission to guard Joseph’s tomb that Jesus’ body was in (Matthew 28:62-66).
The New Testament’s authenticity is better attested that any other ancient document. The gospels were written by eyewitness and/or based upon eyewitness accounts (Matthew 9:9; 1 Peter 5:13; Luke 1:1-3; John 19:35; 21:24; 2 Peter 1:16).
RT: Ehrman doesn’t know what he’s talking about!
GW: Nonsense. Ehrman’s credentials, publications, and videos show that he knows what he’s talking about. I’d accept his reports and opinions over yours any day. In fact I’d accept his over anyone else’s in the world who speaks on the same topics.
RT: Pilate didn’t need the approval of the high priest to grant Jesus’ body to Joseph.
GW: That must be true. But it is likely that Pilate would not grant a favor to Joseph without the approval of the high priest who requested in the first place that Pilate crucify Jesus. Leaving the body up for days and then placing it in a common pit was the modus operandus, as you well know.
RT: They needed Pilate for Jesus to be executed.
GW: That must be true. Yes, it would be against the Roman law for Jews to execute one of their own.
RT: “The Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphus to the place of the Roman governor” (John 19:28 NIV). Especially after the Jewish religious leaders had wrung the death sentence of him, Pilate was quite outdone with them, as his curt reports to them indicate. The religious leaders needed to ask Pilate to change the sign he wrote, and he refused (John 19:21,22).
GW: Yes, I agree with those points.
RT: They also had to ask Pilate for permission to guard Joseph’s tomb that Jesus’ body was in (Matthew 28:62-66).
GW: The story of guards at the tomb in Matthew is uncorroborated. I have dismissed this as a fabrication and you should also.
RT: The New Testament’s authenticity is better attested that any other ancient document.
GW: Even if that were true, it wouldn’t matter. The Gospels do not constitute sufficient evidence that Jesus came back to life for many reasons we have already discussed..
RT: The gospels were written by eyewitness and/or based upon eyewitness accounts (Matthew 9:9; 1 Peter 5:13; Luke 1:1-3; John 19:35; 21:24; 2 Peter 1:16).
GW: False. No writer of any of the four Gospels was an eye witness to Jesus, period. Perhaps Luke implies that his Gospel was based on eyewitness accounts, but we cannot confirm this since he does not name the eyewitness, tell when or where he interviewed them, quote them, or identify any problems at all with their alleged reports. We cannot regard Luke as a good journalist or historian. Once again, the evidence for a resurrection of Jesus is insufficient.
GW: Also, you are evading my points – that if God did exist and he caused the resurrection of Jesus, he would have arranged events much differently than what is described in the Gospels. You consistently paint God as incompetent, which he would not be, if he did exist.
Regarding Ehrman’s opinions about Jesus’ death and resurrection, Pilate’s release of Jesus’ body to Joseph, and Jesus’ burial by Joseph in the tomb—nonsense, even when spoken by a genius, is still nonsense.
“When [Pilate] learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph” (Mark 15:45 NIV)., without any input from the high priest.
RT: Regarding Ehrman’s opinions about Jesus’ death and resurrection, Pilate’s release of Jesus’ body to Joseph, and Jesus’ burial by Joseph in the tomb—nonsense, even when spoken by a genius, is still nonsense.
GW: But what the genius Ehrman has said about these topics is rational and correct. He is the best in the field.
RT: “When [Pilate] learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph” (Mark 15:45 NIV)., without any input from the high priest.
GW: It’s probably a fabricated story since Pilate would be unlikely to comply with the request of a member of the Sanhedrin who was not the chief priest.
Jesus’ death and resurrection were both extraordinary events. To argue that the Biblical accounts aren’t factual because they describe events that were different from the ordinary is nonsense. Things happen every day that are out of the ordinary.
More importantly, the Biblical accounts cannot be proven false (Romans 3:4).
RT: Jesus’ death and resurrection were both extraordinary events.
GW: False. They weren’t events. The claim that Jesus died is not extraordinary at all, and his death would not be extraordinary. We all die. The claims that Jesus came back to life and was caused to come back to life by God are both extraordinary claims, which require extraordinary evidence, which neither you nor anyone else has provided.
RT: To argue that the Biblical accounts aren’t factual because they describe events that were different from the ordinary is nonsense.
GW: Straw man. That’s not my claim. A resurrection would be an event not just “different from the ordinary” but “super-improbable” or “miraculous.” It is not factual because you have not provided sufficient good evidence that it actually happened. There are even good reasons to conclude that it didn’t happen. I presented some to you, and you have evaded them.
RT: Things happen every day that are out of the ordinary.
GW: Some events happen which are rare. And some hypothetical things, like resurrections, have never happened! At the least, there has never been a confirmed resurrection. NEVER! If you think there has been a confirmed resurrection, then present it. Since nobody has confirmed the resurrection of Jesus, the whole Christian religion is in vain. You could prove the resurrection of Jesus right now by presenting an alive Jesus to us in a meeting. Of course you can’t do that because Jesus is dead. Duh.
RT: More importantly, the Biblical accounts cannot be proven false (Romans 3:4).
GW: False. I have proven the Biblical account of God to be false. If God does not exist, then Jesus wasn’t a representative of God and God did not raise Jesus from the dead. God does not exist, which is proven by my Holocaust argument. Therefore, Jesus wasn’t a representative of God and God did not raise Jesus from the dead. There you go!
Jesus’ death and his being alive later, after his resurrection, are both extremely well-attested by many eyewitnesses, as explained and documented in the reply to you on June 18 at 4:50 PM ET. You’ve chosen to deny the evidence.
RT: Jesus’ death and his being alive later, after his resurrection, are both extremely well-attested by many eyewitnesses, as explained and documented in the reply to you on June 18 at 4:50 PM ET.
GW: Here you are begging the question. You are assuming as a fact something you have not proven to be a fact. Jesus was a human person, so of course he died at some time, but you have not come close to proving that he came back to life after being killed on the cross.
GW: Whether Jesus died as a result of crucifixion is a separate question. In my book I mentioned evidence pointing in favor of the hypothesis that he did not die from crucifixion. And furthermore, that he survived the crucifixion is a good naturalistic explanation for people believing they saw him afterwards. So, at this point I would just say that the chances are about 45% that he went into a coma, awoke from it, and was seen later by his friends.
GW: What do you mean by “extremely well attested”? I think you merely mean that several people claimed that Jesus came back to life. The same can be said about Muhammad riding a winged horse from Medina to Jerusalem. Of for seeing the virgin Mary in the 20th century. The attestations you have cited are basically worthless for our purpose here. Why? Because there is not a single first-person, author-identified, low-bias, promptly-written, eyewitness report of any event in the life of Jesus. ZERO! This absence is the nail in the coffin for any supernatural claim about Jesus. The Hume-Sagan dictum is “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” The claim that Jesus came back to life is an extraordinary claim, and so far, you and your Christian side-kicks have presented less than ordinary evidence for you claim.
GW: Where is the alive Jesus? If Jesus came back to life, then he is alive right now and he would already have come forth to present himself to the world.
RT: You’ve chosen to deny the evidence.
GW: False. I’ve examined all your silly evidence. It’s just not good enough.
GW: Here is a new argument for you:
Argument Against the Resurrection of Jesus: 5-23-2023
1. Definition: God is 1) the hypothetical, unique, supernatural, independent, spiritual, normally invisible person, intelligent agent, or sentient entity. He is OMNI lasting (eternal), present, knowing, powerful, intelligent, rational, creative, and resilient (invincible). He is also OMNI loving, compassionate, and moral with respect to other persons. He fills the roles of cosmos designer and producer (creator), occasional interventionist in the world, and afterlife manager who decides the favorable or unfavorable disposition of human souls after they die. or 2) the greatest imaginable possible person (the “GIPPer”) who, if he existed, would surely be worthy of our greatest respect, admiration, and worship. Or 3) the hypothetical ideal person, intelligent agent, or sentient being, i.e. that possible person with all desirable traits to their highest degrees and with no undesirable traits.
2. Definition: Jesus was a real man who lived in the early third of the first century CE in ancient Palestine. He was a Jew who grew up working in some trade with his father. During the last three years of his life he became a traveling minister, preaching a radical apocalyptic version of Judaism. He aggravated the Jewish and Roman rulers in Jerusalem, and then Pilate, the Roman leader in the province at the time, had Jesus crucified. It is alleged that Jesus was divine, performed miracles, and came back to life. It is also alleged by some that the death of Jesus serves as the atonement for the sins of humanity. Jesus, along with Paul, is considered a founder of the Christian religion.
3. If God did exist and if God brought Jesus back to life, as alleged, then these other events would have also occurred:
A. On Easter morning the women who went to the tomb would have seen Jesus exit the tomb for the first time, they would have interacted with him, and they would have accurately documented this encounter.
B. Soon after his coming back to life the risen Jesus would have presented himself to thousands of people, not just a dozen, and many of those thousands would have written high quality eye witness reports.
C. Soon after his coming back to life the risen Jesus would have presented himself to hostile Jews and Romans, and many of those would have written high quality eye witness reports.
D. Jesus would be alive today and would have already presented himself to modern people.
E. Other resurrections caused by God would have occurred over the two thousand year period since Jesus.
F. Some people would have seen Jesus confirmed dead when removed from the cross, seen him placed in the tomb, and seen him exit the tomb, and would have accurately documented these observations.
4. None of these auxiliary events A-F occurred.
5. Therefore, either God does not exist or God did not bring Jesus back to life or both.
6. If God does not exist, then God could not and did not bring Jesus back to life.
7. God does not exist. This is known from several other valid arguments.
8. Therefore, God did not bring Jesus back to life.
See the article: “Jesus’ Empty Tomb Is Evidence of His Resurrection”, on this website.
Who saw and wrote about Jesus pushing back the stone, exiting the tomb, and interacting with the people outside? Oh, that’s right — nobody did. You have no eyewitness reports, photos, or videos of these alleged events.
Could we travel back in time and watch these events happen? Maybe, if God did exist. If he did, wouldn’t he arrange for all of us to take that trip back in time? Sure, why not? But it would be easier for God to just arrange a world press conference where he and Jesus answered questions today.
The idea that Jesus came back to life is irrational, false or probably false, silly, and ridiculous. You have no proof.
There is much proof of his death and resurrection.
His side was pierced after his death, and blood and water flowed out, indicating his heart had burst (John 19:34,35_ His death was verified by the Roman government (Mark 15:44,45).
“After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive” (Acts 1:3 NIV). These are recorded in Matthew 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20 & 21 & 1 Corinthians 15:3-8.
You are one who choses to “not believe” (John 3:36 NKJV).
RT: There is much proof of his death and resurrection.
GW: Proof? There is proof of neither! There is some weak evidence for his death, but as long as he existed (as we believe he did) we can be quite sure that he died. Duh. We’ve talked about the kinds of evidence for past events previously, and I hate to give you that lecture again, but I guess I will. There are three known kinds of evidence for past events. They are the three Rs – reports, recordings, and remnants. For the alleged resurrection of Jesus, none of these exists. There are only stories, hearsay, and rumors about it.
RT: His side was pierced after his death, and blood and water flowed out, indicating his heart had burst (John 19:34,35_
GW: The incident of the piercing with the spear is presented in only the Gospel of John and is not corroborated. And thus, we may confidently conclude that this was a fabrication. See my book for more details on this.
GW: Here are a couple of rules you should follow in examining all these claims:
1. If an event is presented in only one Gospel, reject it.
2. If an event is natural, and not supernatural, and it is presented in three of the four Gospels, then accept it.
RT: His death was verified by the Roman government (Mark 15:44,45).
GW: False. In the story the centurion said Jesus was already dead in his meeting with Pilate. The centurion is not the “Roman government” and not a physician. Jesus may still have been alive and the centurion presented a false report to Pilate due to negligence or a bribe.
RT: “After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive” (Acts 1:3 NIV). These are recorded in Matthew 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20 & 21 & 1 Corinthians 15:3-8.
GW: This is just a story repeated by several authors. There are many naturalistic explanations for the alleged sightings of Jesus. There are two which stand out as most probable – Jesus woke from a coma in the tomb or one or two disciples had grief hallucinations of Jesus. I have written about both of these.
RT: You are one who choses to “not believe” (John 3:36 NKJV).
GW: Do we choose our beliefs? I’m not sure about that. It is a controversial topic in psychology and philosophy. One school of thought is that our beliefs occur to us just like our sensations occur to us. Or that although we choose our behaviors, we don’t choose our beliefs, sensations, or emotions. They just happen to us beyond our will.
All four gospels report the death of Jesus (Matthew 27:45-56; Mark 15:33-41; Luke 23:44-45; 19:29-35), and that Pilate granted “Jesus’ body” to Joseph of of Arimathea who put the body in a rock-hewn tomb, and Matthew and Mark report that Joseph “rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb” (Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42). Jesus was dead when his body was put in the tomb. But, let’s imagine that he wasn’t dead then, but in a coma, as you like to claim. After all the beatings he received, and the fact that he was so weak he couldn’t even carry his crossbeam all the way to the execution site (Mark 15:21; Luke 23:26), indicates he was extremely weak. There is no way even a healthy man could move the stone from inside the tomb, but much less such a weak man.
RT: All four gospels report the death of Jesus (Matthew 27:45-56; Mark 15:33-41; Luke 23:44-45; 19:29-35),…
GW: I believe all four Gospel writers presented a story in which Jesus died on the cross. Does this story describe reality? Maybe. A man living and then dying is mundane; happens everyday. A man being crucified by the Romans in the first century and the man dying due to the crucifixion, while rare, still happened and has a naturalistic explanation. (BTW, Josephus presents an account of a man crucified who was saved before he died on the cross.) So, let’s just estimate that the probability that Jesus lived, was crucified, and died because of his crucifixion is 90%. I’m happy to go that far.
RT: and that Pilate granted “Jesus’ body” to Joseph of of Arimathea who put the body in a rock-hewn tomb,…
GW: This is less likely and I estimate the probability at 50% for reasons I have already specified. Many scholars, including Bart Ehrman, believe that Jesus was left on the cross for a few days and then his body was placed in a common grave, an open pit, as was the case with NEARLY ALL crucifixion victims. I don’t see why Pilate would make an exception for the criminal Jesus.
RT: and Matthew and Mark report that Joseph “rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb” (Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42).
GW: You are being inconsistent with yourself here. You say “ Matthew and Mark report” and then you cite them plus Luke and John. That’s a mistake or deceptive.
RT: Jesus was dead when his body was out in the tomb.
GW: Well, there is a 50% chance that he was not placed in a tomb and there is a 10% chance that he was not dead when removed from the cross. In the first century there were at least eight signs of death which could be observed by a trained person. There is no narrative in any of the Gospels that these signs were checked in the case of Jesus. He might have been in a coma when he was removed from the cross and he might have revived from the coma later on, either in the pit or in the tomb, whichever of those outcomes is true.
RT: But, let’s imagine that he wasn’t dead then, but in a coma, as you like to claim.
GW: Yes, let’s imagine that. I think there was a 10% chance this was the case.
RT: After all the beatings he received, and the fact that he was so weak he couldn’t even carry his crossbeam all the way to the execution site (Mark 15:21; Luke 23:26), indicates he was extremely weak.
GW: Yes, he may have been so weak, he couldn’t carry his cross and then he went into a coma on the cross. The “unable to carry the cross” does not appear in two of the Gospels. It takes three to make it credible.
RT: There is no way even a healthy man could move the stone from inside the tomb, but much less such a weak man.
GW: I agree. It would ordinarily take at least two healthy strong men to move the stone in front of the opening and away from the opening. But if God did exist and caused Jesus to come back to life, then he would have caused Jesus to move the stone away from the opening, exit the tomb, and interact with the women who came on Sunday morning. Thus, we can be CERTAIN that either God does not exist or God did not cause Jesus to come back to life. Either conclusion is devastating to the Christian position. Isn’t this obvious? Yes, it is.
Jesus appearances in his resurrected state to multiple people at the same time (Matthew 28; Mark 16; Luke 23; John 20-21), could not be hallucinations because multiple people do not have the same hallucination simultaneously.
RT: Jesus appearances in his resurrected state to multiple people at the same time (Matthew 28; Mark 16; Luke 23; John 20-21), could not be hallucinations
GW: False. You are accepting the narratives at face value, as being true, without even attempting to investigate. I showed in my published article, cited below, how a hallucination of Jesus by one disciple could be exaggerated into a story of simultaneous sightings. Haven’t you read my article?
Whittenberger, Gary. “On Visions and Resurrections: Can Hallucination
Account for the Post-Crucifixion Appearances of Jesus?” Skeptic.
Vol. 17, No. 1, 2011, Pg. 40-45.
RT: because multiple people do not have the same hallucination simultaneously.
GW: Not the same one, but similar ones! At Fatima many people had a similar hallucination simultaneously. This can happen and has happened on rare occasions.
GW: Roughly 15% of persons undergoing the grief process have hallucinations of their deceased loved one. (I did in the case of my first wife.) 15% of 12 is 1.8. And thus, we might expect that 2 of the 12 disciples had grief hallucinations of Jesus. It is possible that they had them AT THE SAME TIME! This grief hallucination hypothesis is the BEST explanation of the “post-crucifixion sightings of Jesus.” The coma hypothesis is the SECOND BEST explanation. And the resurrection hypothesis is the WORST explanation. You must use your rational mind to investigate these things.
The “grief hallucinations” and the “coma” speculations are both self-defeating, because, as experts in those fields tell us, (1) multiple people do not have the exact same hallucinations, (2) at the exact same time; and (3) people who have just awakened from a coma are very weak.
RT: The “grief hallucinations” and the “coma” speculations are both self-defeating,
GW: False. Neither is self-defeating.
RT: because, as experts in those fields tell us, (1) multiple people do not have the exact same hallucinations, (2) at the exact same time;
GW: This is a straw man. No expert has claimed that two people have the “exact same” hallucination at the same time. How could anyone know this? They couldn’t. You can’t know if your hallucination is exactly the same as somebody else’s hallucination because you can’t experience somebody else’s mental state. However, two people can have, and have experienced, a similar hallucination on the same occasion. For example, many people have hallucinated Mary the Mother of Jesus at the same time. If we could actually compare their hallucinations, we’d probably see that they saw Mary having different clothing, different hair style, different posture, different gestures, etc. But the vision of Mary is common to all.
GW: I am an expert in the field of hallucinations (you aren’t) and I know that two different persons can have a similar hallucination at the same time. Didn’t you read my published article on this topic with respect to Jesus?
RT: and (3) people who have just awakened from a coma are very weak.
GW: Well of course they are! And even if Jesus woke up from a coma in the tomb, he would have been too weak to push back the stone by himself. Probably two men, Jewish sympathizers, rolled back the stone and discovered that Jesus was alive, weak, and suffering, and then they carried him out of the tomb and tended to him elsewhere. I believe that Joseph and Nicodemus are the two most likely candidates for these rescuers.
GW: On the other hand, if your resurrection hypothesis were true, then Jesus would have come back to life inside the tomb and God would have given him the strength to roll back the stone. He would have rolled it back and exited the tomb just at the time that the women had arrived there on Sunday morning. God would have choreographed this entire event to perfection. All this would have been well documented. God would have ensured this. But this did not happen.
GW: Which of the two hypotheses is more likely? Mine is, of course!
“David . . . was a prophet . . . David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead” (Acts 2:29-31 NLT). Jesus’ resurrection was accurately predicted 1,000 years in advance (Psalm 16:10).
“Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds. Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the pieces in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial custom” (John 19:39,40 NIV). The “coma theory” is also debunked by these facts because being wrapped in 75 pounds of spices would smother him to death if he hadn’t already been dead.
RT: “Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds. Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the pieces in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial custom” (John 19:39,40 NIV).
GW: So what? This doesn’t rule out the coma hypothesis. The two men were probably rushing their job and did not notice that Jesus was still alive in a coma.
RT: The “coma theory” is also debunked by these facts because being wrapped in 75 pounds of spices would smother him to death if he hadn’t already been dead.
GW: Only if both his nose and mouth were covered substantially, which was probably not the case.
GW: Which is more likely? Jesus woke up from a coma and met with some of his followers or Jesus died, came back to life, and met with some of his followers? The coma hypothesis is more likely, of course. We know that some people wake up from comas, but we don’t have a single confirmed case of a person coming back to life. Duh.
“He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen” (John 20:6,7 NIV). There was a separate cloth that had covered Jesus’ head in the tomb. There was no need for any opening for Jesus’ eyes and mouth, since he was dead.
The four gospels report that: (1) Jesus died on the cross the same day he was put on it; (2) Pilate granted his dead body to Joseph Arimathea; (3) who then buried him on the same day before the Sabbath began at sundown; and (4) Jesus was seen by many witnesses in his resurrected state.
RT: The four gospels report that: (1) Jesus died on the cross the same day he was put on it;
GW: I think “report” is probably the wrong word here. It implies the description of an actual event. I think “say” might be more appropriate. I believe that all four gospel writers “say” (or claim) that Jesus died on the cross the same day he was put there, although as we have discussed before, there is some disagreement among them on what day of the week this occurred. Ehrman has spoken of the discrepancy.
GW: Most crucifixion victims lasted more than a day.
RT: (2) Pilate granted his dead body to Joseph Arimathea;
GW: The narrative describing Pilate granting the body to Joseph does not appear in Luke.
RT: (3) who then buried him on the same day before the Sabbath began at sundown;
GW: Burial before sundown would be consistent with Jewish religious customs, and this would have happened if the Jews had custody of the body. But of course, Pilate may not have granted that custody and may have authorized the usual procedure – keeping the victim on the cross overnight and having the body buried in an open pit.
RT: and (4) Jesus was seen by many witnesses in his resurrected state.
GW: The Gospel writers say that many persons had experiences of Jesus after he was crucified and supposedly died and buried in a tomb. How do we explain these experiences? The most likely explanation is that a few persons had grief hallucinations of Jesus and the rest is misunderstanding and exaggeration. The second most likely explanation is that Jesus went into a coma, woke up, and was rescued in the tomb by a couple of sympathizers, perhaps even Joseph and Nicodemous who allegedly placed him in there. The least likely explanation is that Jesus came back to life. There has never been a well documented case of any human person coming back to life. There is no good evidence that Jesus came back to life. And if God did exist and caused Jesus to come back to life, there would be other well documented facts associated with the resurrection, and there is no evidence of these facts, e.g. eyewitness reports of Jesus rolling back the stone and exiting from the tomb. God would not be an incompetent bungler.
If we don’t “choose our beliefs”, as you imply we may not, then why are you arguing for atheism? Why does your friend promote his “Freedom from Religion Agenda”? Why do you argue for the use of “reason” over faith?
Almighty God advises, “Choose my instruction” (Proverbs 8:10 NIV), which is a choice of belief.
RT: If we don’t “choose our beliefs”, as you imply we may not, then why are you arguing for atheism?
GW: That’s actually a good question. I’m arguing that God does not exist and that if he did exist, he didn’t cause Jesus to come back to life. But why am I doing so? Because I hope that your having the information I am presenting to you will cause your brain to flip. In other words, the information will be sufficient to determine the change.
RT: Why does your friend promote his “Freedom from Religion Agenda”? Why do you argue for the use of “reason” over faith?
GW: Probably for the same reason as I described above.
RT: Almighty God advises, “Choose my instruction” (Proverbs 8:10 NIV), which is a choice of belief.
GW: This just reflects the opinion of the man who wrote Proverbs, and he is probably mistaken. If God did exist, however, then he would actually give clear instruction in the manner I have clearly described to you before:
If God did exist, because of his nature (especially because he would be all-powerful and perfectly moral) he would communicate with human persons (and any other persons in the cosmos) ONLY in the following manner:
1. The revelations would be frequent and/or regular. At a minimum God would deliver a revelation at least once every 15 years which is considered a “generation” in the human sense.
2. In a revelation God would identify himself as “God,” but he would appear as a kind middle-aged woman to help people feel comfortable. Although God would normally be invisible, for these revelations he would make himself clearly visible.
3. God would perform at least three miracles in order to verify his identity.
4. God would give morally justified reasons for allowing or causing at least three horrible harms in the cosmos (or on Earth) in order to verify his identity.
5. God would present his moral code and the consequences for compliance and noncompliance.
6. God would answer questions from his audience, at least ten questions.
7. The revelation would be like a press conference and would last just 2-3 hours so that listeners would maintain interest and not become bored or drowsy.
8. God would present orally; he would speak. But at the end of his speech he would distribute printed or digital copies of his speech to everyone who wanted a copy.
9. God would speak in one language, the most popular language in the cosmos, whatever that would be, but God would ensure that everyone heard his speech in their native or primary language.
10. God’s speech would be clear, concise, and easy to understand.
11. God’s communication would be unambiguous, unequivocal, consistent, precise, specific, and rational. (If necessary, God would enhance some persons’ intelligence or ability to comprehend.)
12. God would speak to all persons in the cosmos at the same time. He would speak to theists, atheists, agnostics, polytheists, indeed all persons. Nobody would be left behind.
13. God’s communication would be objective, not subjective. All persons would see and hear God at the same time.
14. God’s speech would be simulcast over all TV, radio, internet, and streaming media.
15. God would not use intermediaries, assistants, messengers, or prophets. He would always do his own work – his own communication. He would know that this would reduce the probability of confusion, error, mistakes, and disagreement to zero.
You say, “I hope that the information I am presenting to you will cause your brain to flip. In other words, the information will be sufficient to cause the change”. You are here referring to using one’s brain to process information, and deciding to change on’s thinking based on that information. These are choices that people can, and do, make. As you know, some people chose to be “in denial” about certain truths, or facts.
The Bible encourages thinking, proper choices, and changes . For example:
“‘Come now, and let us reason together,’ Says the LORD”—Isaiah 1:18 NKJV
“This is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate to wholesome thinking”—2 Peter 3:1 NIV
RT: You say, “I hope that the information I am presenting to you will cause your brain to flip. In other words, the information will be sufficient to cause the change”. You are here referring to using one’s brain to process information, and deciding to change on’s thinking based on that information. These are choices that people can, and do, make.
GW: False. You don’t “use” your brain to process information. Your brain just does process information. In essence, you are your brain. Your brain works mostly subconsciously. It may be the case that your brain changes from pro-resurrection to pro-grief hallucination, and then shortly thereafter you experience a “conscious decision” about this. All this is controversial in the field of psychology.
RT: As you know, some people chose to be “in denial” about certain truths, or facts.
GW: Some people deny facts, like Trump denied that he lost the 2020 election and like you denied that God does not exist. But do these people CHOOSE to deny these facts? This is uncertain. Denial may not be about choice, especially conscious choice.
RT: The Bible encourages thinking, proper choices, and changes .
GW: Sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn’t. In some places it encourages faith rather than reason.
RT: For example: “‘Come now, and let us reason together,’ Says the LORD”—Isaiah 1:18 NKJV “This is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate to wholesome thinking”—2 Peter 3:1 NIV
GW: Yes, those are good encouragements. Then you get [things] like this: “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Hebrews 11:1 NIV
“Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us. They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples” (Luke 1:1,2 NLT). So did Dr. Luke (Luke 1:3).
Jesus was not “most crucifixion victims”. His death on the cross occurred the same day he was out in it, just as the four gospels report,
“He [Joseph of Arimathea] went to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. Then he took the body down from the cross” (Luke 23:52,53 NLT). Joseph obviously asked for, and received, Jesus’ body, as the other three gospels report.
“He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living” (1 Corinthians 15:6 NIV). Five hundred people do not have “grief hallucinations” at the exact same time. Claiming they were all hallucinating is absurd!
The idea that Jesus may have been “rescued from the tomb by a couple sympathizers” is also equally absurd, because the tomb was obviously undisturbed when it was sealed and guarded on Saturday morning, and the guards would have prevented anyone from that point on to disturb it (Matthew 28:11-15).
Proof of Jesus’ resurrection is extremely well-documented!
RT: “Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us. They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples” (Luke 1:1,2 NLT).
GW: I reject the NLT and accept the NIV as the best translation. The same verses in NIV go like this: “1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.”
GW: “Handed down” through how many hands? Luke does not say. We know for sure that Luke himself was not an eyewitness. Even if Luke is telling the truth here, we do not know that he directly received reports from eye witnesses of Jesus. So as evidence for any supernatural event, this just isn’t sufficient! You need at least three independent corroborating first-person, author-identified, low-bias, promptly-written eyewitness reports. You have NONE. (As a comparison, how many eyewitness reports of the Twin Towers collisions and collapses do we have?)
RT: Jesus was not “most crucifixion victims”. His death on the cross occurred the same day he was out in it, just as the four gospels report,
GW: All four gospels may trace to one person who fabricated the story that Jesus died early, was removed early from the cross, and was placed in a traditional tomb. I think it is 50-50 likely that the story is true. Bart Ehrman thinks it is even less likely. So, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this point. But just because the Gospels say it, even all four, doesn’t mean it is true.
RT: “He [Joseph of Arimathea] went to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. Then he took the body down from the cross” (Luke 23:52,53 NLT). Joseph obviously asked for, and received, Jesus’ body, as the other three gospels report.
GW: This could have happened, but once again I estimate it at a 50% probability. Ehrman estimates it as lower.
RT: “He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living” (1 Corinthians 15:6 NIV).
GW: This is the weakest reference in Paul’s list. What were the names of these people? Where did they make the observation? On what date and time did they make the observation? Where are the documented interviews with them? Who corroborated that they made the observation? None of this information is provided by Paul, and so we can disregard the claim. It was probably a fabrication.
RT: Five hundred people do not have “grief hallucinations” at the exact same time. Claiming they were all hallucinating is absurd!
GW: Straw man. Nobody has claimed that these alleged 500 were hallucinating Jesus. However, if you will look at the Fatima incident, there may have been far more than 500 people there who hallucinated at the same time. But again, the best explanation of the 500 reference is that it was a fabrication. There is not a single report from any of those alleged people. You are presenting what is known as “hearsay.”
RT: The idea that Jesus may have been “rescued from the tomb by a couple sympathizers” is also equally absurd,
GW: I don’t know why you’d think it is absurd. It is a perfectly plausible and rational hypothesis. After all, we have no report or even a story of how Jesus actually left the tomb, dead or alive!
RT: because the tomb was obviously undisturbed when it was sealed and guarded on Saturday morning, and the guards would have prevented anyone from that point on to disturb it (Matthew 28:11-15).
GW: The tomb was never guarded. Three of the four Gospels say nothing about guards and they would have reported this important detail if guards had been posted.
RT: Proof of Jesus’ resurrection is extremely well-documented!
GW: False. Not only is there not proof, there is not even good evidence for this. If God did exist and if he caused Jesus to come back to life, the documents we have would be far different and would be conclusive. You keep thinking of God as an incompetent person.
When we carefully read the account we discover, “They were handed down to us BY THOSE WHO FROM THE FIRST WERE EYEWITNESSES” (Luke 1:2 NIV). The report by Luke is that he got his information firsthand from “EYEWITNESSES” without any intermediaries.
Three of the gospels are written, independent testimony from eyewitnesses, and Luke’s is a compilation of testimony from multiple firsthand eyewitnesses. There are no contradictions among them, which strong evidence of their accuracy.
Matthew’s report of the guards posted at the tomb, and the soldiers being bribed to claim the disciples stole Jesus’ body, and Paul’s report of the 500 plus witnesses of the resurrected Jesus at one time cannot be proven false.
None of your claims to the contrary have any supporting evidence.
RT: “David . . . was a prophet . . . David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection.
GW: Probably not. People can’t see the future. That’s impossible.
RT: He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead” (Acts 2:29-31 NLT).
GW: In ancient times it was a common belief that all people would be raised from the dead. Someone would need to be the first among them.
RT: Jesus’ resurrection was accurately predicted 1,000 years in advance (Psalm 16:10).
GW: Nonsense. What is more likely is that the story of Jesus coming back to life was fabricated to conform to an ancient belief.
RT: “He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen” (John 20:6,7 NIV).
GW: As if they had never been used. Maybe Jesus woke up from his coma very early.
RT: There was a separate cloth that had covered Jesus’ head in the tomb. There was no need for any opening for Jesus’ eyes and mouth, since he was dead.
GW: Or he was alive and so there was no need for the cloths.
All you’re doing is spewing out wild speculations which have no proof.
“The centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died” (Mark 15:39 NIV). This is the same centurion that Pilate summoned that afternoon, and “asked . . . if Jesus had already died . . . and learned from the centurion that it was so” (Mark 15:44,45 NIV).
Jesus was publicly verified as dead prior to Joseph of Arimathea received his corpse. Your coma speculations, etc., are contrary to the facts.
GW: My speculations are plausible and rational, and they don’t need proof. You are the one who is claiming that the claims of the Gospel writers are true, so the burden of proof is on you! I am just casting doubt on those claims. They are unlikely to be true.
RT: “The centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died” (Mark 15:39 NIV).
GW: Why are you not quoting the entire verse? It says “And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died,[a] he said, ‘Surely this man was the Son of God!’”
GW: The centurion did not know that Jesus was dead. He did not perform an up-close examination of Jesus to detect the eight signs of death. Even if he thought that Jesus was the Son of God, that’s just his opinion. If he believed this, then he may have given Pilate a false report.
RT: This is the same centurion that Pilate summoned that afternoon, and “asked . . . if Jesus had already died . . . and learned from the centurion that it was so” (Mark 15:44,45 NIV).
GW: Yes, it probably was the same one. As I have said, the centurion did not know if Jesus was dead, but he reported to Pilate that he was. He may have been mistaken (because he didn’t do a proper exam) or he may have been bribed to lie.
RT: Jesus was publicly verified as dead prior to Joseph of Arimathea received his corpse.
GW: You have a very loose definition of “publicly verified.” The centurion reported to Pilate that Jesus was dead. There are many good reasons to think this statement was false, as I have presented to you.
RT: Your coma speculations, etc., contrary to the facts.
GW: False. My coma hypothesis is perfectly compatible with the narrative. It only requires that the centurion’s report to Pilate was false. For more details, read my book. Which is more likely to be true, the coma hypothesis or the resurrection hypothesis? The coma hypothesis, of course! If Jesus came back to life, then he is still alive. Bring him to a meeting of us tomorrow. Ha.
The centurion’s opinion that Jesus was “the Son of God” is irrelevant to the fact that “he saw how Jesus died” (Mark 15:39 NIV).. The centurion was a long-time professional soldier who no doubt had already overseen many public executions, so he knew what he was observing.
Peter, whom Mark used for his main source was possibly an ‘eyewitness’ to Jesus’ execution and death (2 Peter 1:16), or at a minimum, was very familiar with the details. Your coma hypothesis is complete nonsense, and runs counter to all the reported facts of the case.
RT: The centurion’s opinion that Jesus was “the Son of God” is irrelevant to the fact that “he saw how Jesus died” (Mark 15:39 NIV).
GW: The alleged observation and opinion of the centurion were mentioned in the same verse, and so I commented on both. Mark claims that the centurion saw how Jesus died, but Mark was not an eyewitness of this and he does not report an interview with an eyewitness, including the centurion. Where is the centurion’s report? You don’t have one. Nobody does. Do you expect people to believe that a miracle occurred on the basis of hearsay evidence? Forget about it. Rational people are not going to believe the story to be true.
RT: The centurion was a long-time professional soldier who no doubt had already overseen many public executions, so he knew what he was observing.
GW: Centurions were not coroners or medical examiners or physicians of any kind. They might get pretty good at judging that a victim was dead while still up on the cross, but they would not be good at assessing cause of death. Also, they were fallible human beings, and thus they could make a mistake in judgement or be bribed. Also, there is no evidence that the centurion checked for the eight signs of death once Jesus was removed from the cross.
RT: Peter, whom Mark used for his main source was possibly an ‘eyewitness’ to Jesus’ execution and death (2 Peter 1:16), or at a minimum, was very familiar with the details.
GW: False. Even in the story Peter was not present for the crucifixion or alleged burial. Peter fled. He was afraid of being arrested himself. Mark does not say that Peter was his main source. That’s speculation.
RT: Your coma hypothesis is complete nonsense, and runs counter to all the reported facts of the case.
GW: False again. The coma hypothesis is plausible, rational, and perfectly consistent with the main story line. There really are no “facts of the case.” You don’t have the evidence to establish any facts! You have four stories, and even they have details which are inconsistent or contradictory. Matthew, next to John the most outlandish of the Gospels, mentions saints coming out of their graves and wandering through the streets of Jerusalem and mentions guards at the tomb, neither of which is mentioned in any of the other three Gospels. Those would be pretty important details, don’t you think? Yes, if they had really occurred, they would be mentioned in all four Gospels. They aren’t. Once they understand the nature of the evidence, rational people are not going to believe your resurrection nonsense. No wonder Christianity is in decline in the US and Europe.
More on the Fatima apparitions:
“Yahweh is our refuge” (Psalm 14:6 NJB), not Mary. People “sin against Yahweh” (1 Samuel 12:23 NJB), not Mary.
Jesus’ resurrection fulfilled Bible prophecy and is in complete harmony with the entire Bible. In stark contrast, the apparitions of Mary at Fatima are not genuine. Why not?
They violate Bible principles, such as those expressed at 2 Corinthians 11:14, “Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light” (NIV), and Galatians 1:6-8, “. . . turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse” (NIV). the Bible says to pray to, “Our Father in heaven” (Matthew 6:9 NIV), not Mary. The Bible says that Jesus is “the way and the truth and the life”, not Mary, and, “no one comes to the Father except through” Jesus, not Mary (John 14:6 NIV). Jesus is the “one mediator between God and mankind”, not Mary (1 Timothy 2:5 NIV).
The facts show that the things taught by whoever, or whatever, was claiming to be Mary at Fatima are simply “doctrines of demons” (1 Timothy 4:1 NKJV), because Almighty “God is not the author of confusion” (1 Corinthians 14:33 NKJV).
RT: Jesus’ resurrection fulfilled Bible prophecy and is in complete harmony with the entire Bible.
GW: False. The Gospels were written so as to appear to fulfill OT prophesies. The Gospel writers manufactured history to correspond with what was written in the OT. How convenient.
RT: In stark contrast, the apparitions of Mary at Fatima are not genuine.
GW: How can you say that hallucinations of Mary are not genuine, while hallucinations of Jesus are? Hallucinations are real things, regardless of what you think.
RT: They violate Bible principles,…
GW: Nonsense. Hallucinations are plentiful in the Bible. Look at Saul’s hallucination of Jesus on the road to Damascus.
RT: such as those expressed at 2 Corinthians 11:14, “Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light” (NIV),…
GW: There is less evidence for Satan than for God. If God did exist, Satan would not exist. Either God would never have created an angel who would become Satan or God would have destroyed Satan when he committed his first sinful and harmful act.
RT: and Galatians 1:6-8, “. . . turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse” (NIV).
GW: There are four different gospels, not one. God does not exist, and this has already been proven. And if God does not exist, then he couldn’t have caused Jesus to come back to life.
RT: the Bible says to pray to, “Our Father in heaven” (Matthew 6:9 NIV), not Mary.The Bible says that Jesus is “the way and the truth and the life”, not Mary, and, “no one comes to the Father except through” Jesus, not Mary (John 14:6 NIV). Jesus is the “one mediator between God and mankind”, not Mary (1 Timothy 2:5 NIV).
GW: So what? Some people have had hallucinations of Mary and some have had hallucinations of Jesus. Big deal.
RT: The facts show that the things taught by whoever, or whatever, was claiming to be Mary at Fatima are simply “doctrines of demons” (1 Timothy 4:1 NKJV), because Almighty “God is not the author of confusion” (1 Corinthians 14:33 NKJV).
GW: Millions of Catholics disagree with you and believe they saw Mary at Fatima. But you are correct about one thing here – if God did exist, he would not be the author of confusion. God would have set the record straight in numerous meetings with humanity, as I have clearly described to you. But confusion on religious matters is prolific. Confusion exists; therefore, God does not exist.
GW: No wonder Christianity is in decline in the US and Europe.
RT: When we carefully read the account we discover, “They were handed down to us BY THOSE WHO FROM THE FIRST WERE EYEWITNESSES” (Luke 1:2 NIV). The report by Luke is that he got his information firsthand from “EYEWITNESSES” without any intermediaries.
GW: You are missing an important point. “Handed down” through how many hands? Through how many people? Luke is certainly claiming that the chain of communication BEGAN with eyewitnesses, but we still do not know HOW LONG the chain was. Also, who were the eyewitnesses and what exactly did the witnesses say with respect to Jesus? Luke does not tell us. We do not read things like this: “On January 10, 50 CE, I interviewed the disciple John of Zebedee in the Ezra Café in Jerusalem. He said to me ‘I saw, heard, and touched Jesus just four days after he was crucified in a house on the outskirts of Jerusalem in 30 CE.’” There is nothing like this, and so the narrative cannot or should not be trusted. It is not credible.
RT: Three of the gospels are written, independent testimony from eyewitnesses, and Luke’s is a compilation of testimony from multiple firsthand eyewitnesses.
GW: False. Matthew and Luke take information from Mark, and so they are not independent of Mark. This is well recognized by OT scholars. None of the Gospel writers tell us who were their informants, if there were any, or what they said. They don’t use quotes. They don’t compare quotes of different witnesses. They are not specific with respect to time and place. Their narratives are really poor.
RT: There are no contradictions among them, which strong evidence of their accuracy.
GW: False. We’ve been over that before. Of course there are contradictions. I’ve pointed out many to you.
RT: Matthew’s report of the guards posted at the tomb, and the soldiers being bribed to claim the disciples stole Jesus’ body, and Paul’s report of the 500 plus witnesses of the resurrected Jesus at one time cannot be proven false.
GW: The burden of proof is on you to prove that the stories are true. These reports are made by only one source, are not corroborated, and thus are probably fabrications. If they were true, because they are major details, they would be mentioned in all four Gospels, especially if these books were inspired or dictated by God, as you claim. Once again, you are thinking of a god who is not God. God would not be incompetent, but apparently your god is.
RT: None of your claims to the contrary have any supporting evidence.
GW: They have some supporting evidence, but they don’t need any to be viable hypotheses. Even though all four Gospels say that Jesus’ body was placed in a customary tomb, it is still a viable hypothesis that it was placed in a common pit, as Bart Ehrman has said.
GW: Here is a nice discussion of some of the issues:
You, friend, are the one who is “missing the point”. Luke reports, “just as the original eyewitnesses and servants of the word handed them down to us” (Luke 1:2 HCSB). Luke got his information directly FROM “THE ORIGINAL EYEWITNESSES”, WITHOUT ANY INTERMEDIARIES.
There is zero proof that Matthew and Luke got their information from Mark. Speculations are not facts. There was no need for either Matthew or Luke to get their information from Mark, because Matthew was one of Jesus’ 12 apostles and an eyewitness to much that he recorded. Luke got his information directly and primarily from some of “the original eyewitnesses” of the events he recorded (Luke 1:2 HCSB).
The burden of proof is on you, friend, to falsify anything you dispute in the Bible.
RT: Luke reports, “just as the original eyewitnesses and servants of the word handed them down to us” (Luke 1:2 HCSB). Luke got his information directly FROM “THE ORIGINAL EYEWITNESSES”, WITHOUT ANY INTERMEDIARIES.
GW: There you go again – cherry picking your translation to support your own interpretation. I don’t use the HCSB. I use the NIV. My interpretation of the verse disagrees with yours.
RT: There is zero proof that Matthew and Luke got their information from Mark.
GW: False. The consensus of NT scholars is that they got SOME of their information from Mark. There is no doubt about this.
RT: Speculations are not facts.
GW: It is no longer a speculation. It is now a fact that Matthew and Luke got SOME of their information from Mark.
RT: There was no need for either Matthew or Luke to get their information from Mark, because Matthew was one of Jesus’ 12 apostles and an eyewitness to much that he recorded.
GW: False. Matthew was a person who never knew Jesus and wrote in Greek, not even knowing Aramaic, the language of Jesus. Read Ehrman.
RT: Luke got his information directly and primarily from some of “the original eyewitnesses” of the events he recorded (Luke 1:2 HCSB).
GW: We’ve already covered this. Luke was also a person who never knew Jesus and wrote in Greek, not even knowing Aramaic, the language of Jesus. Luke CLAIMED that some of his information was “handed down” from eyewitnesses of Jesus, but we don’t know if this is true or how many steps there were in the chain of communication. Luke neither identifies any eyewitnesses nor quotes them. He is a poor historian. We don’t have a report written by or dictated by any of the alleged eyewitnesses.
RT: The burden of proof is on you, friend, to falsify anything you dispute in the Bible.
GW: False. Whenever you claim that any event occurred, the burden of proof is on you to show that it occurred. As we have discussed before, there are only three known types of events for the occurrence of an event in the past – the three R’s – Reports, Recordings, and Remnants. Well, there are no recordings or remnants having to do with Jesus, especially the alleged resurrection. And the alleged reports are horrible in quality. There is not a single first-person, author-identified, low-bias, promptly written, eyewitness report of any event in the life of Jesus or its aftermath. ZERO.
GW: What would a high quality report look like? Something like this: “My name is Seutonius, and I am the centurion responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth. We began the crucifixion at 9 AM on Friday, April 6, 30 CE, and ended it on 11 AM on Sunday, April 8, 30 CE. Using nails and ropes my team of five and myself positioned the criminal on the cross in the usual way. He suffered. We allowed him to receive some drink. He moaned and groaned. There were about 20 bystanders at the beginning but only about 5 at the end. Early on Sunday morning about 6 AM, a Jew who called himself ‘Joseph’ asked me to go with him to verify the death of Jesus to Pilate and I refused. By 9 AM I thought that Jesus was probably dead, but I left him on the cross for another two hours, as the birds and insects ravaged him. Then at 11 AM we removed Jesus from the cross. I checked the standard eight signs of death and they were all present. I then ordered my team to carry the body to the usual pit for criminals and throw the corpse into the pit. This was all accomplished by 11:15 on Sunday. I am turning in my report today at 8 AM on Monday. In service of the Roman Empire, Seutonius.” Notice that this has all the features of a top-notch report of events. None of the Gospels has anything approaching this quality.
RT: More on the Fatima apparitions: “Yahweh is our refuge” (Psalm 14:6 NJB), not Mary. People “sin against Yahweh” (1 Samuel 12:23 NJB), not Mary.
GW: Those verses say nothing about the Fatima apparitions. They don’t even say anything about Mary. They are irrelevant.