CLAY PRISM NAMING NEBUZARADAN FOUND IN BABYLON
“The word came to Jeremiah from the LORD [Yahweh] after Nebuzaradan commander of the imperial guard had released him at Ramah. He had found Jeremiah among all the captives from Jerusalem and Judah who were being carried into exile to Babylon”—Jeremiah 40:1 NIV
After Zedekiah, king of Judah, rebelled against Babylonian control in 588 BCE, Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar swiftly responded, capturing Jerusalem the next year.
“In the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month — it was in the nineteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon — Nebuzaradan commander of the imperial guard, a member of the king of Babylon’s staff, entered Jerusalem. He burned down the Temple of Yahweh, the royal palace and all the houses in Jerusalem. Nebuzaradan commander of the guard deported the remainder of the people left in the city, the deserters who had gone over to the king of Babylon, and the rest of the common people. But the commander of the guard left some of the poor country people behind as vineyard workers and ploughmen”—2 Kings 25:8-12 NJB
He placed a high-ranking officer in the Babylonian army named Nebuzaradan in charge of supervising the burning of the city, tearing down its walls, taking 832 captives to Babylon, looting God’s temple, and rounding up Judean officials to appear before King Nebuchadnezzar, and taking most of the Jewish people into exile (2 Kings 25:8-21; Jeremiah 39:8-13; 52:15-27).He was also in charge of the Babylonian occupation forces.
“Nebuzaradan commander of the imperial guard carried into exile to Babylon the people who remained in the city, along with those who had gone over to him, and the rest of the people. But Nebuzaradan the commander of the guard left behind some of the poor people who owned nothing; and at that time he gave them vineyards and fields”—Jeremiah 39:9;10 NIV
Nebuchadnezzar left Nebuzaradan with specific instructions to treat Jeremiah kindly, who, in all the confusion, had mistakenly got mixed in with the prisoners who were being gathered to be taken to Babylon (Jeremiah 39:11-40:1). Nebuzaradan released Jeremiah and gave him the option to go o Babylon, or remain in Judah (Jeremiah 40:2-4). Jeremiah chose to stay in Judah, and joined the newly appointed Jewish caretaker governor Gedaliah at Mizpah (Jeremiah 39:14; 40:5,6). Five years later, the Bible reports, Nebuzaradan returned to Jerusalem and this time he deported another 745 persons to Babylon (Jeremiah 52:30).
During excavations in Nebuchadnezzar’s palace in Babylon a clay prism was found. Among the names on the prism was that of Nebuzaradan, who had the title of “Chancellor”. This prism is thought to date to approximately 570 BCE, and thus indicates the fact that Nebuzaradan had been given a political appointment following his military career.
This is just one more example of the many thousands of examples of how people, places, things, and events named in the Bible, are found in various artifacts discovered during the last 200 years. Contrast this with the Book of Mormon, which has no such supporting evidence for the cultures, tribes, peoples, etc,, that are claimed to have inhabited the Americas.
“Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal Interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God”—2 Peter 1:20,21 NAB
42 thoughts on “CLAY PRISM NAMING NEBUZARADAN FOUND IN BABYLON”
“The word came to Jeremiah from the LORD [Yahweh] after Nebuzaradan commander of the imperial guard had released him at Ramah. He had found Jeremiah among all the captives from Jerusalem and Judah who were being carried into exile to Babylon”—Jeremiah 40:1 NIV
This verse is and must be false since God does not exist. Here is a new proof of this:
Argument Against the Existence of God Based on the Holocaust: 11-22-2022
1. The Holocaust occurred.
2. If God did exist, he would be perfectly moral.
3. If God did exist, then he allowed the Holocaust to occur for one or more morally justified reasons.
4. But, there are and could be no morally justified reasons for God to allow the Holocaust.
A. One possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that they did not know about the Holocaust. But this could not be a reason for God since he would be all-knowing.
B. Another possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that they did not have the power to prevent it or immediately stop it. But this cold not be a reason for God since he would be all-powerful.
C. Another possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that they would have been killed in an attempt to prevent or stop it. But this could not be a reason for God since he would be eternal and all-powerful.
D. Another possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that they would have been significantly injured in an attempt to prevent or stop it. But this could not be a reason for God since he would be invincible and all-powerful.
E. Another possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that they would have significantly suffered in an attempt to prevent or stop it. But this could not be a reason for God since he would be invincible and all-powerful.
F. Another possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that allowing it would be necessary for them to prevent some greater harm than the Holocaust. But this could not be a reason for God since nothing at all would be necessary for him to allow to prevent some greater harm since he would be all-powerful. God would have dominion over all necessities and natural laws.
G. Another possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that allowing it would be necessary for them to produce a benefit which outweighed the Holocaust. But this could not be a reason for God since nothing at all would be necessary for him to allow to produce some benefit that would outweigh a harm since he would be all-powerful. God would have dominion over all necessities and natural laws.
5. Therefore, God does not exist.
The Bible promises that God will eliminate death, pain and suffering (Revelation 21:4). His timetable for doing so is different from yours (2 Peter 3:8,9), but doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist.
Something that you’re in denial about is that science has discovered the universe had a beginning, just as the Bible has said for thousands of years (Genesis 1:1).
RT1: The Bible promises that God will eliminate death, pain and suffering (Revelation 21:4).
GW1: I don’t trust anything the author of Revelation says. He claims that God exists, which is false. It has been proven that God does not exist. In fact we may ignore the entire Bible because all its authors assume that God exists, when we now know he doesn’t.
RT1: His timetable for doing so is different from yours (2 Peter 3:8,9), but doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist.
GW1: If God did exist, he would have prevented all horrible harms, such as the recent Turkish-Syrian Earthquake, or the Covid-19 Pandemic, or the Holocaust. Why? Because he would be all-powerful and perfectly moral. In fact, God would not have a “timetable” for preventing horrible harms, as you claim. He would have prevented them from the start!
RT1: Something that you’re in denial about is that science has discovered the universe had a beginning, just as the Bible has said for thousands of years (Genesis 1:1).
GW1: We’ve been over this many times. The universe might have had a beginning; that is one possibility. But science has not discovered that it did. You are in denial about that. You wish that the universe had a beginning and this wish is leading you astray to think that this is a fact.
GW1: Here is my most recent argument which combines features of earlier arguments. If you find any error, please let me know.
The Three-Way Argument Against the Existence of God Based on the Holocaust: By Gary Whittenberger, 1-29-2023
1. Definition: God is 1) the hypothetical supernatural, unique, independent, eternal, invulnerable, everywhere-present but usually invisible, all-knowing, perfectly rational, all-powerful, all-loving, perfectly moral person or intelligent agent who created the cosmos, sometimes intervenes in our world, and assigns human persons to different desirable or undesirable conditions after they die. or 2) the greatest imaginable possible person (the “GIPPer”) who, if he existed, would surely be worthy of our greatest respect, admiration, and worship. Or 3) the hypothetical ideal person, intelligent agent, or sentient being, i.e. that possible person with all desirable traits to their highest degrees and with no undesirable traits.
2. If God did exist, then he would be all-knowing, all-powerful, invulnerable, and perfectly moral.
3. If God did exist, then the Holocaust would not have occurred.
A. If God did exist and allowed the Holocaust, then he would have been immoral. To give human beings the free will to engage in violent acts in furtherance of the extermination of a group of human persons would be immoral in itself. And to stand by and do nothing to prevent or stop an extermination, when you could do so, would have been immoral in itself.
B. But God would be perfectly moral.
C. Therefore, if God did exist, then he would not have allowed the Holocaust and so it would not have occurred.
4. But the Holocaust did occur.
5. Therefore, God does not exist.
6. Furthermore, if God did exist, then he allowed the Holocaust to occur for one or more morally justified reasons.
7. But there are and could be no morally justified reasons for God to allow the Holocaust. Consider these possibilities:
A. One possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that they did not know about the Holocaust. But this could not be a reason for God since he would be all-knowing.
B. Another possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that they did not have the power to prevent it or immediately stop it. But this could not be a reason for God since he would be all-powerful.
C. Another possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that they would have been killed in an attempt to prevent or stop it. But this could not be a reason for God since he would be eternal and all-powerful.
D. Another possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that they would have been significantly injured in an attempt to prevent or stop it. But this could not be a reason for God since he would be invulnerable and all-powerful.
E. Another possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that they would have significantly suffered in an attempt to prevent or stop it. But this could not be a reason for God since he would be invulnerable and all-powerful.
F. Another possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that allowing it would be necessary for them to prevent some greater harm than the Holocaust. But this could not be a reason for God since nothing at all would be necessary for him to allow in order to prevent some greater harm since he would be all-powerful. God would have dominion over all necessities and natural laws.
G. Another possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that allowing it would be necessary for them to produce a benefit which outweighed the Holocaust. But this could not be a reason for God since nothing at all would be necessary for him to allow in order to produce some benefit that would outweigh the Holocaust since he would be all-powerful. God would have dominion over all necessities and natural laws.
H. Another possible morally justified reason for a person to allow the Holocaust is that permitting it would implement just punishment for every victim. But the Holocaust did not have the features of just punishment for every victim. For example, it lacked advance rule declaration, administration by proper authority, individualized proportional severity, and least effective severity for all victims.
8. Therefore, God does not exist.
9. Furthermore, if any tribunal is investigating or evaluating the occurrence of any horrible harm to a person or group of persons, then anyone who has knowledge of any detail related to that occurrence should present their testimony about what they know. Every person knowledgeable of the occurrence has a moral duty to come forward to the tribunal and testify to what they know, telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
10. The Nuremberg Trials constituted a tribunal investigating or evaluating the occurrence of the Holocaust.
11. And so, if God did exist, because he would be both all-powerful and perfectly moral, then at the Nuremberg Trials he would have testified as a witness, sworn to tell “the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me myself,” and presented his reasons for allowing the Holocaust.
12. But God did not testify at the Nuremberg Trials.
13. Once again, therefore, God does not exist.
God says to people like you: “Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its size? Surely you know” (Job 38:4,5 NAB). Your knowledge is very limited compared to God’s. You’re arguing from a very limited perspective. God “has perfect knowledge” (Job 36:4 NIV).
Your definitions of God are true, except that he’s not everywhere present. He doesn’t need to be, since nothing is out of his reach, and sight (Isaiah 59:1; Psalm 11:4,5).
Your assertion that God doesn’t exist because evils, such as the Holocaust, occurred is false, because God does exist. All of your assertions based on this reasoning are also false. The Kalam Cosmological Argument is just one proof that God does exist (Genesis 1:1).
RT2: God says to people like you: “Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its size? Surely you know” (Job 38:4,5 NAB).
GW2: God says nothing since he doesn’t exist! Whoever wrote the book of Job believed that God exists, and he was mistaken. Besides, if God did exist, he would not act in the way the author describes. For example, God would not make bets with Satan. And God would not be condescending and dishonest in speaking to Job. God would tell him the truth why he was allowing Job to suffer so much.
RT2: Your knowledge is very limited compared to God’s. You’re arguing from a very limited perspective. God “has perfect knowledge” (Job 36:4 NIV).
GW2: God has no knowledge since he doesn’t exist! I am not omniscient, and neither are you. But if God did exist, he would be omniscient. For example, he would know that it would be immoral for him to allow the Holocaust, and so he would have prevented it because he would be all-powerful and perfectly moral, as stated in the standard definition.
RT2: Your definitions of God are true, except that he’s not everywhere present.
GW2: I don’t have “definitions” of God. I only present the standard definition of God. There is only one definition and there would only be one god. It has long been the belief of most God worshipers that God would be everywhere present.
RT2: He doesn’t need to be, since nothing is out of his reach, and sight (Isaiah 59:1; Psalm 11:4,5).
GW2: He might not “need” to have a particular property, but still have it. Unlike you, most God worshipers believe that he would be everywhere present. However, these verses you cite here describe an alternative property which would work just as well. If God’s observational powers would extend to everywhere, it would be like he was everywhere present. So, the two properties are properly functionally the same.
RT2: Your assertion that God doesn’t exist because evils, such as the Holocaust, occurred is false, because God does exist.
GW2: First, I don’t speak of “evils.” I speak of harms and benefits, so you are misrepresenting my argument. Please don’t do that. Secondly, my argument speaks of only one horrible harm, i.e. the Holocaust. Please try to focus your attention on it instead of focusing on all harms. Thirdly, the argument shows that God does not exist and cannot exist since the Holocaust did occur. If God did exist, he would have prevented the Holocaust. So far, you have not found any error in the argument, so proclaiming that God exists is not credible.
RT2: All of your assertions based on this reasoning are also false.
GW2: Identify each assertion, one by one, which you believe is false and tell us why you believe it is false. You are just making claims and not doing any work of reasoning.
RT2: The Kalam Cosmological Argument is just one proof that God does exist (Genesis 1:1).
GW2: The Kalam argument does not reach the conclusion that God exists. It only reaches the conclusion that the universe had a beginning which had a cause. Even if that were true (it probably isn’t), the cause might be something other than God, such as Satan, another god, an alien from another planet, or some natural process. So, the Kalam argument doesn’t do what you want it to do. Furthermore, presenting the Kalam argument is not finding an error in my argument, so it is irrelevant.
GW2: The Holocaust argument which I presented to you has sound definitions, true premises, and impeccable logic per Modus Tolens. Therefore, its conclusion is true and must be true. You have found no error, flaw, or mistake in the argument, at least not yet. You won’t find an error because there is no error.
God doesn’t owe anyone any explanations. However, he does give us all we need to know. “Things revealed belong to Yahweh our God, but things revealed are ours and our children’s for ever, so we can put all the words of this Law into practice” (Deuteronomy 29:29 NJB). God’s “word is truth” (John 17:17). “God is no human being that he should lie” (Numbers 23:19 NJB).
No matter how good you can even hope to have things in this world, all you have to look forward as an atheist is death.
Christians are told to “always treat others as you would like them to treat you” (Matthew 7:12 NJB). If everyone followed this, this world would be far better than it is now, but this practice, in itself, will not give anyone eternal life. “The promise he made you himself is eternal life” (1 John 2:25 NJB). Eternal life is worth believing God and doing his will.
There is only one being in existence who could create the universe. “The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power” (Job 37:23 NIV). “The Almighty” is the only Almighty.
Science has proven that the universe is not eternal, and at one time did not exist, and that energy transformed into matter at the beginning of the universe. Energy could not have transformed into matter without an outside infuence. Science has proven that something cannot come from nothing. This and other facts proves that God does exist.
Your Holocaust argument is flawed because it has been proven that God does exist, and your argument is based on an assertion that, “If God did exist then the Holocaust would not have occurred”.
RT3: God doesn’t owe anyone any explanations. However, he does give us all we need to know.
GW3: God does not exist, and this has been proven many times. However, if God did exist, then of course he would owe us explanations, in this case the reasons why he would have allowed the Holocaust. The surviving Jews and the public at large would have a right to know. And God would have a duty to testify at the Nuremberg Trials. And he certainly would testify because he would be all-powerful and perfectly moral. If a crime has been committed and if any person at all has knowledge of the crime, then they have a moral duty to offer to testify in any investigative or judiciary tribunal. It is not uncommon, however, to see persons abuse their power and refuse to testify, people like Mike Pence and Donald Trump. God would not be like them. God would offer to testify and would testify.
RT3: “Things hidden belong to Yahweh our God, but things revealed are ours and our children’s for ever, so we can put all the words of this Law into practice” (Deuteronomy 29:29 NJB).
GW3: Irrelevant.
RT3: God’s “word is truth” (John 17:17).
GW3: If God did exist, of course he would always tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help himself. He would volunteer to tell the truth when it would be relevant, helpful, needed, or morally required as would be the case at the Nuremberg Trials. Only he would know why he allowed the Holocaust to occur, and so his testimony would be unique and significant.
RT3: “God is no human being that he should lie” (Numbers 23:19 NJB).
GW3: We agree that God would not lie, if he did exist. But also, he would not conceal or hide the truth when revelation would be relevant, helpful, needed, or morally required. You consistently undersell God. I think you worship your own lesser god. If he existed, God would be far superior to [your lesser] god.
RT3: No matter how good you can even hope to have things in this world, all you have to look forward as an atheist is death.
GW3: We all will die and few look forward to it. But how is this remark relevant to finding an error in my argument? It isn’t. The argument is correct, and you have found no error.
RT3: Christians are told to “always treat others as you would like them to treat you” (Matthew 7:12 NJB). If everyone followed this, this world would be far better than it is now, but this practice, in itself, will not give anyone eternal life.
GW3: I would volunteer to tell the truth about what I knew about any crime and I expect others to do the same, including God if he existed. I would treat God as I would like him to treat me.
RT3: “The promise he made you himself is eternal life” (1 John 2:25 NJB). Eternal life is worth believing God and doing his will.
GW3: But God does not exist, and so he has made no promises. Also, there is no good evidence of any afterlife.
RT3: There is only one being in existence who could create the universe.
GW3: So far, there is no conclusive evidence that the universe was created. If it were created, then there are several possibilities for a creator.
RT3: “The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power” (Job 37:23 NIV).
GW3: If God is beyond our reach, then how do you know so much about him? You seem to think you know that he would allow the Holocaust, but you have neither proven that this is possible nor what his reasons would be. You are not taking the concept of God seriously. You are ignoring the traits of all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly moral or failing to rationally infer their implications.
RT3: “The Almighty” is the only Almighty.
GW3: If God did exist, he would be the only all-powerful being. I think we agree on that point. And so, if any event were to occur or not occur, it would be by God’s approval, if he did exist. So we are led to a contradiction – God would and would not allow the Holocaust. See the problem?
RT3: Science has proven that the universe is not eternal, and at one time did not exist,…
GW3: No. We’ve been over this many times. There is no consensus among physicists and cosmologists about whether the cosmos always existed or came into existence. However, given the Law of Conservation of Energy-Matter and given Okham’s Razor, it is likely that the cosmos is eternal.
RT3: and that energy transformed into matter at the beginning of the universe.
GW3: This is false even if our universe had a beginning. Energy did not change into matter until thousands of years after the Big Bang.
RT3: Energy could not have transformed into matter without an outside inf[l]uence.
GW3: Why not? Why do you think this? It could just be part of the intrinsic and eternal orderliness of the cosmos that when certain conditions X become prevalent, then energy automatically turns into matter, described by Einstein’s famous equation, E=mc2. The cause may just be the presence of conditions X.
RT3: Science has proven that something cannot come from nothing. This and other facts proves that God does exist.
GW3: This error is known as “non sequitur.” The latter does not follow from the former. It is likely that the cosmos is eternal. But if it had a beginning, the cause could be any one of about six factors, which I previously brought to your attention.
RT3: Your Holocaust argument is flawed because it has been proven that God does exist,…
GW3: Making a claim (“God exists”) which contradicts the conclusion of the argument (“God does not exist”) is not finding an error. You have found no error, flaw, or mistake in the argument itself.
RT3: and your argument is based on an assertion that, “If God did exist then the Holocaust would not have occurred”.
GW3: That is one premise of the argument and it is true. I have shown you why it is true. You have not shown that it is even possible to be false.
GW3: If you believe that if God did exist, then he would have allowed the Holocaust to occur, then prove that this would be possible and tell us what morally justified reasons you believe God would have had for allowing it. You can’t. You won’t. If God did exist and had morally justified reasons for allowing the Holocaust, he would have already told you, and then you would have told me and the rest of the world. Isn’t it obvious that God does not exist? Yes, it is.
GW3: Like about 75 other persons, you still have found no error in any of my contra-God arguments.
It’s good that you follow the “golden rule” (Matthew 7:12).
You continue to hide your head in the sand about the fact that the consensus among cosmologists that the “Big Bang” describes the beginning of the universe, and that the universe began in a highly ordered state and remains in a highly ordered state today. These facts alone prove that the universe was designed (Genesis 1:1; Psalm 19:1-4; Hebrews 11:3).
If the universe was eternal, all hydrogen would have already fused into helium, so today there would not be any of there heavier elements in existence, such as carbon, oxygen, etc., which means life would be impossible.
Science has proven that energy did transform into matter at the beginning of the universe.
RT3: You continue to hide your head in the sand about the fact that the consensus among cosmologists that the “Big Bang” describes the beginning of the universe, and that the universe began in a highly ordered state and remains in a highly ordered state today. These facts alone prove that the universe was designed (Genesis 1:1; Psalm 19:1-4; Hebrews 11:3).
GW3: I want to distinguish two concepts – the cosmos and our universe. The cosmos is all orderly-dynamic energy-matter existing in space-time. Our universe is all orderly-dynamic energy-matter existing in space-time which can be traced back to the Big Bang, occurring roughly 13.7 billion years ago. There may be many universes of which ours is only one. If there are, then the cosmos contains our universe and all others, and then the cosmos could be called “The Multiverse.”
GW3: You continue to hide your head in the sand as you think that the current consensus among cosmologists is that the Big Bang was the beginning of our universe or of the cosmos. There are certainly some current cosmologists who believe that, but they don’t belong to a consensus. (What percentage would be a consensus anyway?) Also, they are probably wrong for the reasons I have already presented to you, as follows:
1. Energy-matter can be neither created nor destroyed. Since our universe is composed of energy-matter, it has never been created.
2. The simplest explanation tends to be the correct one. “It is eternal” is the simplest explanation for our current universe. It requires no additional assumptions, whereas creationism does.
3. The remote past tends to be like the recent past. In the recent past, even up to 13.7 billion years ago, our universe existed. So, in the remote past, it is likely that our universe existed. (It could even be a part of a multiverse.)
4. It has not yet been proven that our universe or the cosmos had a beginning or a creator.
GW3: In one sense the orderliness of the universe has declined because of entropy. But in another sense the orderliness of the universe has increased since it started with many reliable processes and the number of those reliable processes has increased because of emergence.
GW3: Most Bible verses are what ancient men thought and wrote about God, and many of those men thought that God created our universe. But today, we know that God does not exist, and so except for a few verses, we may ignore the Bible. Even the first verse is false.
RT3: If the universe was eternal, all hydrogen would have already fused into helium, so today there would not be any of there heavier elements in existence, such as carbon, oxygen, etc., which means life would be impossible.
GW3: At the time of the BB, there was no hydrogen. Later, some energy was converted to matter in the form of free protons. Still later the first element was formed and it was hydrogen. Later, by various natural processes other elements were produced. All hydrogen did not become helium; free hydrogen exists today. In fact, hydrogen is the most abundant element in our universe. Also, the heavier elements were produced in stars which were not present at the BB or until thousands or millions of years later. One heavier element, i.e. carbon, was especially important in the formation of life on Earth.
RT3: Science has proven that energy did transform into matter at the beginning of the universe.
GW3: Some energy transformed into matter shortly after the BB, but as we have seen the BB was not necessarily the beginning of our universe or of the cosmos. This is still a matter of controversy. See above for the reasons that our universe and the cosmos is probably eternal.
GW3: You are still evading my three-way argument based on the Holocaust. I guess you have found no error in it, because if you had, I am sure you would have presented it by now. If God did exist, what morally justified reason do you believe he would have for allowing the Holocaust? Can’t think of one? That’s what I thought. God has not told you of one? That’s what I thought. If God did exist and had any reason at all for allowing the Holocaust, then he would have presented it at the Nuremberg Trials. Don’t know about those trials? Google it.
“Do you knows the laws of the universe?” (Job 38:33 NLT). These laws had to be made by someone, “our lawgiver” (Isaiah 33:22 NIV) who existed prior to the universe/cosmos.
Thank you for finally admitting that the Big Bang, which began the universe/cosmos, occurred 13.7 billion years ago (Romans 1:20). Even though it is anathema to you, scientists have been forced by their own discoveries to admit that the universe/cosmos has a beginning. (Genesis 1:1; Psalm 19:1-4; Hebrews 11:3).
However, the theoretical “Multiverse” you mention exists entirely in the “imaginations” of humans (Ezekiel 13:3 NLT), having zero proof of existence. Another thing, the total entropy of the universe is not increasing. It is constant, at zero, actually (Isaiah 40:26).
The perfect expansion rate of the universe/cosmos testifies to God’s maintenance of the universe/cosmos. “Stretches them out” (Isaiah 42:5; Job 9:8; Jeremiah 51:15; Zechariah 12:1 NIV).
Evils in general, such as death (Romans 5:12), and the Holocaust, in particular, exist because humans chose to rebel against God, contrary to his explicit warning (Genesis 2:17; 3:1-6, 16-19).
RT4: “Do you knows the laws of the universe?” (Job 38:33 NLT).
GW4: I know some of them. One is this: “Energy-matter may be neither created nor destroyed.” Do you know that one?
RT4: These laws had to be made by someone, “our lawgiver” (Isaiah 33:22 NIV) who existed prior to the universe/cosmos.
GW4: Who says that these laws had to be made by someone? Do you think God says this? No. He doesn’t say it because he doesn’t exist. See my argument. Do you say it? Yes, you do, but you are mistaken. Why? Because once again you are confusing natural laws with legislated laws. Natural laws are just descriptions of the way the cosmos works. Legislated laws are prescriptions for the future behavior of persons. You have them mixed up. As far as we know, the orderliness described by natural laws is just inherent and eternal to the cosmos. You have no good evidence that this orderliness was ever installed, added, designed, engineered, or created. It appears to be a brute fact about the cosmos.
RT4: Thank you for finally admitting that the Big Bang, which began the universe/cosmos, occurred 13.7 billion years ago (Romans 1:20).
GW4: I’ve always stated that the BB occurred approximately 13.7 billion years ago. That is the conclusion of the consensus of experts. But I have never stated that the BB was the beginning of our universe or the cosmos. Here you are being disingenuous.
RT4: Even though it is anathema to you, scientists have been forced by their own discoveries to admit that the universe/cosmos has a beginning. (Genesis 1:1; Psalm 19:1-4; Hebrews 11:3).
GW4: Who put the gun to their head to force them? You? No, they have never been forced by anything or anybody to reach their conclusions. (One exception may be that the Catholic church did force some scientists to reach some conclusions favorable to the church between about 400 and 1800, but we need not go there.) All modern scientists have the same data, but they draw different conclusions or have different interpretations or explanations of that same data. Some of them believe that the BB was the beginning of our universe or of the cosmos, and some do not. There is no consensus among modern scientists on this issue. Last round I gave you four reasons why I believe that our universe or the cosmos is probably eternal, and thus I agree with some of the modern scientists. So far, you have not refuted those reasons.
RT4: However, the theoretical “Multiverse” you mention exists entirely in the “imaginations” of humans (Ezekiel 13:3 NLT), having zero proof of existence.
GW4: There is no proof, but there is evidence consistent with the multiverse hypothesis. At this time neither of us believes that it exists, so there is no use in wasting our time in discussing it.
RT4: Another thing, the total entropy of the universe is not increasing. It is constant, at zero, actually (Isaiah 40:26).
GW4: You are just mistaken on this. I found this from Wikipedia for your edification: “Assuming that a finite universe is an isolated system, the second law of thermodynamics states that its total entropy is continually increasing.”
RT4: The perfect expansion rate of the universe/cosmos testifies to God’s maintenance of the universe/cosmos.
GW4: There is no standard by which to conclude that the expansion is “perfect.” It is what it is. The expansion rate is just a brute fact of the cosmos. God does not exist, as proven by the three-way Holocaust argument I gave you.
RT4: “Stretches them out” (Isaiah 42:5; Job 9:8; Jeremiah 51:15; Zechariah 12:1 NIV).
GW4: The authors of those books of the Bible had no knowledge of our expanding universe. They were just looking at the sky, clouds, sun, moon, and stars. As far as those things, they had a one-third chance of being correct just by chance: 1) expansion, 2) deflation, or 3) remaining static. They happened to guess #1 and by luck they were correct. They assumed that God did exist, even when he didn’t. We now know that God does not exist, as I have proven to you.
RT4: Evils in general, such as death (Romans 5:12), and the Holocaust, in particular, exist because humans chose to rebel against God, contrary to his explicit warning (Genesis 2:17; 3:1-6, 16-19).
GW4: “Evil” is no longer a useful concept, so I won’t refer to it. I will refer to benefits and harms. Some harms are horrible harms, like the Holocaust.
GW4: You are just presenting the tired old idea that horrible harms are punishments from God, either punishments to human persons today for their sins or punishments to the descendants of Adam and Eve for Adam and Eve’s sins. You seem to favor the latter view because you are always harping about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. This is just a fictional story produced by one of the authors of Genesis. We know it is fiction because of the false assumptions it makes. If God did exist, he would never punish some people for the sins of other people. He would never punish innocent people for the sins of guilty people. He would never punish the innocent descendants (any of them) for the sins of the guilty Adam and Eve. All those acts would violate the principle of individual accountability. If God did exist, he would be perfectly moral and so he would never violate the principle of individual accountability. Nice try, but here you have not found an error in my argument.
GW4: Also, the Bible says nothing about God allowing and approving the future Holocaust. So, the Bible is irrelevant to my argument.
GW4: If you believe that if God did exist, then present the morally justified reason he would have had for allowing the Holocaust to occur. You can’t. Why? First, because there is no morally justified reason which God could have for allowing it. Secondly, if God did exist and had any reason for allowing the Holocaust, not only would he have presented that reason at the Nuremberg Trails, but he would have presented it to you and me during this discussion. None of those things has happened. There is one obvious conclusion – God does not exist!
GW4: Neither you nor anyone else has found an error in my three-way Holocaust argument. Because the definitions are sound, the premises are true, and the logic is impeccable per Modus Tolens, the conclusion must be true – God does not exist. We both do WISH that God would exist, but sadly he doesn’t. Even the Turkish-Syrian earthquake, which has now killed over 41K people, would not have occurred, if God did exist.
You’re correct in saying that the total entropy in an isolated system increases over time, according to the 2nd law of Thermodynamics. However, the fact is that the universe has always maintained a total entropy of zero, which proves that the universe is not just an isolated system. How could it not just be an isolated system? Because Almighty God, who exists outside the universe, maintains it, and, in that sense, the universe is not just an isolated system. This fact is mentioned in the Bible:
“Through him [Christ] God created everything in the heavenly realm and on earth . . . He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together”—Colossians 1:16,17 NIV
“The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word”—Hebrews 1:3 NIV
“Your regulations remain true to this day, for everything serves your plans”—Psalm 119:91 NLT
God, in the future, will undo all the harm that has ever been done, so there is no need to worry (Isaiah 65:17; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28). God hates evil even more than we do! His temporary tolerance of it should not be construed as non-existence!!!
RT5: You’re correct in saying that the total entropy in an isolated system increases over time, according to the 2nd law of Thermodynamics. However, the fact is that the universe has always maintained a total entropy of zero, which proves that the universe is not just an isolated system. How could it not just be an isolated system?
GW5: First, the entropy of our universe has been increasing since the Big Bang. This is a fact. If you disagree, then present good evidence to support your contrary belief. Secondly, if God did exist, then he created our universe as separate from himself and it would thus be an isolated system. Thirdly, at the time of the Big Bang our universe was an isolated system since it consisted of just a very small, dense, hot collection of energy, and since then it has remained an isolated system as space has expanded with it.
GW5: Not only are you in denial of the First Law of Thermodynamics, you are now in denial of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It is like denying that Joe Biden won the election. Do you deny that fact also?
RT5: Because Almighty God, who exists outside the universe, maintains it, and, in that sense, the universe is not just an isolated system. This fact is mentioned in the Bible:
GW5: God does not exist, and so he maintains nothing. This fact is proven by my argument in which you still have found no error. Nobody should trust the Bible. It is mostly a collection of ancient mens’ opinions about God who doesn’t even exist.
RT5: “Through him [Christ] God created everything in the heavenly realm and on earth . . . He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together”—Colossians 1:16,17 NIV
GW5: This verse actually supports my position. Thank you. If God did exist, he would hold our universe “together” as an isolated system. Our universe would not blend with God, the only other thing which would exist.
RT5: “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word”—Hebrews 1:3 NIV
GW5: Totally irrelevant to what we are discussing.
RT5: “Your regulations remain true to this day, for everything serves your plans”—Psalm 119:91 NLT
GW5: Which regulations? If God did exist, he would maintain both natural laws and also legislative laws, except occasionally he would suspend a natural law to perform a miracle. But he would always comply with Correct Universal Ethics.
RT5: God, in the future, will undo all the harm that has ever been done, so there is no need to worry (Isaiah 65:17; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
GW5: Of course there is a need to worry! Horrible harms, like the Holocaust, just keep happening. Are you aware of the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Are you aware of the Turkish-Syrian earthquake? Do you follow the news or do you just bury your head in your dozen Bible versions? Besides, if God did exist, he would have prevented the Holocaust, as I have shown in my argument in which you still have found no error.
RT5: God hates evil even more than we do!
GW5: Nonsense! If God did exist and he hated horrible harms, then he would prevent them. Duh. Isn’t this obvious? Yes, it is.
RT5: His temporary tolerance of it should not be construed as non-existence!!!
GW5: But if God did exist, he would not tolerate horrible harms! He would prevent them! Duh. So of course, the occurrence of horrible harms, like the Holocaust, proves that God does not exist. You still have found no error in the argument.
GW5: Prove that God could have a morally justified reason for allowing the Holocaust, if he did exist. After you do that, then present the exact morally justified reason which God had for allowing the Holocaust. Why have you been unable to do either of these? Why? Because the bottom line is that God does not exist. It’s just that simple. Don’t feel so bad. Nobody else has been able to do it either.
The transference of energy into matter at the BB beginning of the universe is in harmony with the 1st law of thermodynamics (E=MC2).
The zero entropy in the universe from its beginning until now, is in harmony with 2nd law of thermodynamics (anything in an isolated system will experience an increase in entropy over time). Thus, the lack of increase of entropy in the universe over time is evidence of some outside influence, or maintenance, for example, God’s influence over it (Colossians 1:16,17; Hebrews 1:3).
On February 19, you stated above that the universe is probably eternal, contradicting proven science. Then yesterday, you refer to the 2nd law of thermodynamics causing increasing entropy in the universe. If the universe was eternal, the 2nd law of thermodynamics would have already resulted in the complete breakdown of the universe. So, obviously the universe cannot be eternal.
In that same post, you also stated that the Big Bang was probably not the beginning of the universe, contradicting proven science.
Regarding God’s temporary allowance of bad things, such as genocides and earthquakes, “God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes” (Ecclesiastes 7:28 NIV). He could have created humans without giving them free will, but out of love he allows humans free will (1 John 4:8). He lovingly warned humans of the dire consequences of bad choices (Genesis 2:17). If he didn’t temporarily allow bad things like genocides and earthquakes, he would have to not allow free will. Would you like to be live without free will? Probably not! All of the bad things that have ever happened will be reversed by God in the future (Isaiah 65:17; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28), so no permanent damage can, or will, be done (Revelation 21:1-4).
RT6: The transference of energy into matter at the BB beginning of the universe is in harmony with the 1st law of thermodynamics (E=MC2).
GW6: False. A “beginning of the universe” has not been proven. It is more likely that the universe did not have a beginning of its existence.
RT6: The zero entropy in the universe from its beginning until now, is in harmony with 2nd law of thermodynamics (anything in an isolated system will experience an increase in entropy over time).
GW6: False. There is no good evidence for “zero entropy.” Entropy has been increasing since the Big Bang.
RT6: Thus, the lack of increase of entropy in the universe over time is evidence of some outside influence, or maintenance, for example, God’s influence over it (Colossians 1:16,17; Hebrews 1:3).
GW6: False. Entropy has been increasing since the Big Bang.
RT6: On February 19, you stated above that the universe is probably eternal, contradicting proven science.
GW6: False. There is no contradiction there. Our universe is probably eternal for the four reasons I gave you, which you have neither refuted nor even commented on.
RT6: Then yesterday, you refer to the 2nd law of thermodynamics causing increasing entropy in the universe.
GW6: False. The 2nd Law does not cause an increase in entropy. It describes the increase in entropy.
RT6: If the universe was eternal, the 2nd law of thermodynamics would have already resulted in the complete breakdown of the universe. So, obviously the universe cannot be eternal.
GW6: False. The increase in entropy has been occurring since the Big Bang which was probably just a transition event in an eternal universe. We don’t know about entropy before the Big Bang. The universe can be and probably is eternal. I gave you the four reasons for that. Address each of them.
RT6: In that same post, you also stated that the Big Bang was probably not the beginning of the universe, contradicting proven science.
GW6: False. An eternal universe is compatible with the Big Bang.
GW6: Physics and cosmology are out of your area of expertise. You are presenting many false ideas in these areas. You have many misunderstandings.
RT6: Regarding God’s temporary allowance of bad things, such as genocides and earthquakes, “God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes” (Ecclesiastes 7:28 NIV).
GW6: Irrelevant. My argument is not about “bad things” in general. It is about the Holocaust in particular. Why do you avoid talking about it? God does not exist, and this is shown by my argument.
RT6: He could have created humans without giving them free will, but out of love he allows humans free will (1 John 4:8).
GW6: It would not be out of love to give anybody the free will to murder other persons! If God did exist, he would not do that. Why? Because he would be all-powerful, all-loving, and perfectly moral. You obviously do not understand the concept of God. You underestimate God all the time. Maybe [your] god would give people the free will to murder, but God would not do that, if he existed.
RT6: He lovingly warned humans of the dire consequences of bad choices (Genesis 2:17).
GW6: If God existed and was all-loving, he would not give human beings the free will to murder and exterminate. Duh. How can you not see this?
RT6: If he didn’t temporarily allow bad things like genocides and earthquakes, he would have to not allow free will.
GW6: Nonsense! Earthquakes have nothing to do with the free will of humans. If God did exist, he would not give humans the free will to engage in genocide. You are making a classic error by assuming that free will is an all-or-nothing phenomenon. If he did exist, God could and would give humans some types of free will, e.g. the free will to choose a spouse, but not give humans other types of free will, e.g. the free will to engage in genocide. You keep making the same error in your thinking.
RT6: Would you like to be live without free will? Probably not!
GW6: It doesn’t matter what we would like in this discussion. It matters what is true and false. As I said, if God did exist he would give us some types of free will and not others. Wake up!
RT6: All of the bad things that have ever happened will be reversed by God in the future (Isaiah 65:17; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28), so no permanent damage can, or will, be done (Revelation 21:1-4).
GW6: Complete nonsense! Again, my argument says nothing about all bad things. It references only one horrible harm – the Holocaust. Why can you not speak of the Holocaust? You keep evading it. If God did exist, he would have prevented the Holocaust, as my argument clearly shows. Furthermore, permanent damage has already been done by the Holocaust! What happened in the past is permanent! How can you not know this?
GW6: Any person X SHOULD prevent a horrible harm to other persons Y. Agree? Are there any exceptions to this moral rule? If so, list them.
Atheistic thinking is reminiscent of:
“Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God” (Matthew 22:29 NLT).
In some ways atheistic thinking is similar to:
“They began to think up foolish ideas of what God was [or, should be] like. As result their minds became confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools” (Romans 1:21,22 NLT).
Obviously, you want to dictate what God should be like, and what he should or shouldn’t do. Your ‘not knowing the scriptures or the power of God’ is why you don’t (or don’t want to) understand why he has allowed bad things to occur.
Your denial of God is bad enough, but your denial of what you claim to accept, such as modern science, is quite surprising. You claim to believe in the Big Bang, yet you deny what the Big Bang is, namely, the beginning of the universe. Your “eternal universe” belief contradicts the Big Bang.
In last 25 years, astronomers have discovered that the universe’s expansion rate is exactly at the “critical rate” it needs to expand at, so the universe will go on expanding forever at the perfect rate, that is, not too fast so that it will expand too fast and lose the perfect gravitational attraction that it has, nor too slow, and collapse in upon itself. This is evidence of the zero entropy in the universe. It’s also evidence of God’s control and maintenance (Colossians 1:16,17; Hebrews 1:3).
If God doesn’t exist, why do some atheists, such as yourself, fight so hard to prove he doesn’t exist?
GW7: I will continue to use the terms “our universe” and “cosmos” in the ways I have defined. I will not use the term “the universe” as you do, since it could have at least two different meanings.
RT7: Atheistic thinking is reminiscent of:
GW7: As a group atheists make only one claim “We are not convinced that any gods exist.”
RT7: “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God” (Matthew 22:29 NLT).
GW7: I am an atheist and I know the Bible sufficiently well to draw the valid conclusions I have presented to you. God does not exist, but if he did exist he would be all-powerful. If you think he would not be all-powerful, then present your case. If you don’t know what “all-powerful” means, just let me know and I will explain it to you.
RT7: In some ways atheistic thinking is similar to:
GW7: As a group atheists make only one claim “We are not convinced that any gods exist.” Otherwise, the beliefs of atheists are rather diverse. Instead of focusing on atheists in general, I suggest you focus just on my beliefs, claims, and conclusions. Address your attention to my Holocaust argument.
RT7: “They began to think up foolish ideas of what God was [or, should be] like. As result their minds became confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools” (Romans 1:21,22 NLT).
GW7: This could be referring to theists. Many theists think up foolish ideas of what God would be like if he existed. For example, many theists think he would be a male. Others think he would exist “outside of time.” Still others think he would be forgiving. These people are not fools, but they are just mistaken. We now have a standard definition of “God.” It appears in Step #1 of my argument. I assume that you now agree with this definition. You have not objected to any part of it, as far as I can recall. If you believe any Godly trait should be added, deleted, or modified in this definition, then make your proposal and we can debate that.
RT7: Obviously, you want to dictate what God should be like, and what he should or shouldn’t do.
GW7: The people throughout history have decided what God would be like, if he existed. I have merely summarized their thinking in the standard definition presented in Step #1. You may quibble with them if you wish. I take their ideas seriously.
RT7: Your ‘not knowing the scriptures or the power of God’ is why you don’t (or don’t want to) understand why he has allowed bad things to occur.
GW7: What is there to know of his power other than that God would be all-powerful, if he did exist? Once again, my argument does not reference “bad things.” It references a single horrible harm – the Holocaust, which you seem unwilling or unable to discuss. Do you not know the history of the Holocaust? Surely you must. Never forget! You are being very disrespectful to the Jews by your refusal to address the Holocaust in my argument.
RT7: Your denial of God is bad enough, but your denial of what you claim to accept, such as modern science, is quite surprising.
GW7: God does not exist! It is not bad to accept this fact. It is good to accept it. I am a modern man. I don’t know why you’d consider it surprising that I am both scientific and atheist at the same time. Most modern scientists and philosophers are either agnostic or atheist. Some believe in a vague “higher power.” Only a small percentage believe in God as specified in the standard definition. Overall, belief in God is on the decline in the world.
RT7: You claim to believe in the Big Bang, yet you deny what the Big Bang is, namely, the beginning of the universe.
GW7: The Big Bang is merely an event of rapid expansion of our universe, occurring about 13.7 billion years ago, from a very small, dense, and hot packet of energy to now. It is consistent with either our universe with a beginning or with no beginning. You have not proven that the BB marked the beginning of our universe. You are just speculating.
RT7: Your “eternal universe” belief contradicts the Big Bang.
GW7: False. An eternal universe is perfectly compatible with the Big Bang. If you think it is not, then prove your case. You can’t.
RT7: In last 25 years, astronomers have discovered that the universe’s expansion rate is exactly at the “critical rate” it needs to expand at, so the universe will go on expanding forever at the perfect rate, that is, not too fast so that it will expand too fast and lose the perfect gravitational attraction that it has, nor too slow, and collapse in upon itself.
GW7: There is no such thing as a “perfect” rate of expansion or “perfect” gravitational attraction. Perfect for what? Perfect for whom? The universe doesn’t care about our human goals. It goes on “its merry way”. Also, neither you nor anyone else knows that the universe will expand forever. You are just speculating about that. In fact, there are some scientists who predict that our universe will continue to expand for a long time, slow down, stop, and then,. reverse its overall movement, and that this reversal will NOT be due to gravity when it begins. You may read about this cyclic model of our universe in the book by Steinhardt and Turok which I previously cited to you. If a reversal occurs, it will not start by the force of gravity because that force will be too weak at the remote points in the expansion.
RT7: This is evidence of the zero entropy in the universe.
GW7: You are just mistaken about entropy. The entropy of our universe has been increasing. This is well known by scientists.
RT7: It’s also evidence of God’s control and maintenance (Colossians 1:16,17; Hebrews 1:3).
GW7: God does not exist, as proven by my Holocaust argument and others. You still have found no error in the argument.
RT7: If God doesn’t exist, why do some atheists, such as yourself, fight so hard to prove he doesn’t exist?
GW7: There is no “if” here. God does not exist! We now know this. It has been proven. Some atheists, including me but not all, do fight hard to promote the conclusion that God does not exist. Why? Because it is the truth! It is my moral duty to promote or spread the truth. Furthermore, belief in God causes some people to engage in immoral behavior, even violent behavior. It is also my moral duty to do my best to reduce immoral and other violent behavior in our world.
GW7: You continue to evade my argument, questions, and challenges. You “tap dance” all around the critical issues. This kind of behavior might serve you well if you became a politician or traveling evangelist. I’ll give you another chance to be straight-forward and I will repeat what I said at the end of my last post: Any person X SHOULD prevent a horrible harm to other persons Y. Agree? Are there any exceptions to this moral rule? If so, list them.
We’ve discussed all these things many times before. The Holocaust is one of many atrocities and genocides that have taken place that God does not approve of. “The anger of God will fall on all who disobey him” (Ephesians 5:6 NLT). “God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people” (Romans 1:18 NLT). “Because of these sins, the anger of God is coming” (Colossians 3:6 NLT).
RT8: We’ve discussed all these things many times before.
GW8: Yes, we’ve discussed the possible beginning of our universe many times before and you have yet to reach the correct conclusion which is “Human beings do not yet know if our universe had a beginning, but for four reasons it is likely that it did not.”
RT8: The Holocaust is one of many atrocities and genocides that have taken place that God does not approve of.
GW8: False. God does not exist. If he did exist, then the Holocaust would not have occurred. Why? Because he would have disapproved of it and prevented it. Why? Because God would prevent EVERY event he disapproved of. Why? Because he would be all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, and perfectly moral. If you believe he would have allowed the Holocaust, then present the exact morally justified reason for that. You can’t. Nobody has. Nobody can.
RT8: “The anger of God will fall on all who disobey him” (Ephesians 5:6 NLT).
GW8: This has never happened, so the verse is false. God has never shown up to express anger. Why? Because he doesn’t exist.
RT8: “God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people” (Romans 1:18 NLT).
GW8: This has never happened, so the verse is false. However, if God did exist, declared some behaviors as minor sins, allowed those behaviors to occur, and punished people when they exhibited those behaviors, then how would he punish? How would he show his anger? I will tell you how. He would punish immediately, reliably, fairly, and proportionally. But this does not apply to the Holocaust which God would have prevented. The Holocaust was a horrible harm involving the actions of human beings.
RT8: “Because of these sins, the anger of God is coming” (Colossians 3:6 NLT).
GW8: This has never happened, so the verse is false. If God did exist, he would prevent the horrible harms which some humans do to other humans (murder, extermination, the Holocaust), but he would allow some minor harms which some humans do to other humans (petty theft). For these latter ones, his punishment would never be “coming.” It would always be immediate! God would be no dummy. You continue to underestimate God. Of course, you are actually thinking of your own god – who might engage in delayed punishment.
GW8: Thanks for actually addressing my argument this time. However, you still have found no error in it.
GW8: On the other hand, you still avoided this issue: Any person X SHOULD prevent a horrible harm to other persons Y. Agree? Are there any exceptions to this moral rule? If so, list them.
God says, “I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster … Oh, that you would choose life . . . You can make this choice by loving the LORD your God, obeying him and committing yourself firmly to him” (Deuteronomy 30:15,19,20 NLT). Everyone has this choice. So far, you’ve chosen “death” and “disaster”. Too bad. Please make the right choice before it’s too late.
But you have a problem that hinders you from making the right choice, you don’t believe that God exists:
“It is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him” (Hebrews 11:6 NLT).
Unfortunately, you’re part of the vast majority of humanity who have chosen “death”:
“Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it” (Matthew 7:13,14 NIV).
We urge you to “turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge” (1 Timothy 6:20 NIV).
RT9: God says, “I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster … Oh, that you would choose life . . . You can make this choice by loving the LORD your God, obeying him and committing yourself firmly to him” (Deuteronomy 30:15,19,20 NLT).
GW9: False. God does not say anything because God does not exist! See my Holocaust argument (and others) for the proof. Until you or somebody else finds an error in my argument, I cannot or will not take the Bible seriously. It is just a compilation of stories mainly about God and mankind from ancient men who believed that God exists. However, as I have told you many times, if God did exist he would present to us “rules for living” in revelations which would be frequent or regular, clear, unequivocal, universal, and objective. These revelations would be like international press conferences. Nothing like this has ever happened. This is one way we know that God does not exist. You keep underestimating God. But of course, you worship a lesser god.
RT9: Everyone has this choice. So far, you’ve chosen “death” and “disaster”. Too bad. Please make the right choice before it’s too late.
GW9: Sorry, my friend, but everyone dies. There are no known exceptions. Your position on the afterlife is not even the Christian position which is that some people will live in heaven and the rest will live in hell. I think you have misinterpreted your own Bible.
RT9: But you have a problem that hinders you from making the right choice, you don’t believe that God exists:
GW9: Do we choose our beliefs? I once thought we did, but I am skeptical now that we do. Have you chosen to believe that God exists? Or has this belief just happened to you because of evidence or experience? But anyway, the knowledge that God does not exist is not a problem at all. This knowledge has brought me great peace and contentment.
RT9: “It is impossible to please God without faith.
GW9: First, God does not exist, as has been proven by my Holocaust argument. Secondly, if God did exist, God would be displeased by faith. I wrote an entire book on this topic, as you well know. If he did exist, God would want you to use reason, not faith, to reach conclusions.
RT9: Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him” (Hebrews 11:6 NLT).
GW9: Come to whom? God does not exist and so you can’t come to him or go to him. If you use reason to answer the question “Does God exist?” you inevitably come to the answer “No.” From about age 5 to 20, I believed that God did exist. Then I read the Bible, studied philosophy and science in college, discussed and debated the topic with many other people, read dozens of books about it, and had many relevant life experiences and came to believe that God does not exist. Then in just the last few years I came to actually KNOW that God does not exist. It’s a process. If you follow the evidence, you will come to the same conclusion.
RT9: Unfortunately, you’re part of the vast majority of humanity who have chosen “death”:
GW9: Nonsense. We do not choose death. Death occurs to us, regardless of our choices or opinions. You will be a “dead duck” just like the rest of us. Some people, like you, cannot tolerate the fact of death and so you create fantasies that you will not die. The technical name for them is “delusions.”
RT9: “Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it” (Matthew 7:13,14 NIV).
GW9: This is one of those fantasies which you use to cope with the prospect of death which scares you. But if God did exist, then indeed there would be an afterlife and it would be nothing like what you have imagined. First, we would all spend some time in hell which would be like a high security prison with no amenities and no escape. We would stay there for a period of time proportional to the number and severity of our bad acts during this current life on Earth. Then, we would all spend some time in heaven which would be like a five-star resort. We would stay there for a period of time proportional to the number and significance of our good acts during this current life on Earth. There would be no forgiveness, mercy, pardons, paroles, atonement, or salvation from hell. God would manage a system of perfect justice and fairness. But unfortunately, you worship a different god.
RT9: We urge you to “turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge” (1 Timothy 6:20 NIV).
GW9: I urge you to turn away from all the godfull chatter and come to know the truth of the matter — God does not exist. I have presented the Holocaust argument to you. It is right before your eyes. If you come to actually understand it, then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. I encourage you to ask me questions about the argument and to debate the points on which you disagree with me on it. Out of this process will come understanding.
GW9: For the fourth time you have evaded this issue: “Any person X SHOULD prevent a horrible harm to other persons Y. Agree? Are there any exceptions to this moral rule? If so, list them.” Why do you not wish to discuss this? Don’t be afraid.
Very sorry that you “have rejected” “the word of God” and “judged [yourself] unworthy of eternal life” (Acts 13:46 NLT).
RT10: Very sorry that you “have rejected” “the word of God” and…
GW10: If God does not exist, then the word of God does not exist. God does not exist, as proven by my Holocaust argument in which you have found no error. Therefore, the word of God does not exist. I have read both the Bible and the Quran twice each, and so I know that they cannot be the words of God.
GW10: If God did exist and he decided to speak to humans, in what form would that occur and not occur? Well first, he would not use human intermediaries to deliver his word. He would deliver it himself. He would not dictate to humans to write down his words and spread them to others. As I have told you many times, if God did exist he would speak to the people in special revelations which would be clear, unambiguous, frequent or regular, universal, and objective.
RT10: …“judged [yourself] unworthy of eternal life” (Acts 13:46 NLT).
GW10: I think all of us, including me and you, are worthy of eternal life, but sadly we will all succumb to death. That’s just the way it is. I have no fantasies, delusions, or superstitions about any eternal life or any life in heaven. The evidence just does not support those hypotheses.
GW10: Since you have continued to avoid a dialogue with me on the questions I have been posing to you at the end of my last 3-4 posts, I’ll just offer you my answers.
GW10: “Any person X SHOULD prevent a horrible harm to other persons Y. Agree?” Yes, I believe that this is a correct moral rule, as far as it goes. If we incorporate reason and empathy into our thinking about life and other persons, then we inevitably reach the conclusion that we should help other persons avoid horrible harms. When we imagine others being harmed and suffering, we have a natural inclination to want them to avoid this. Furthermore, if we do help others avoid harm, then it is likely that they will help us too if we are faced with a bad situation. And we feel joy when we prevent, stop, or decrease harm for others. Does that make sense to you? Do you agree?
GW10: “Are there any exceptions to this moral rule? If so, list them.” To most moral rules, stated in the default format, there are exceptions. And this rule is no exception. In fact, there are eight exceptions to the moral rule I presented above. Under these exceptional circumstances we are excused from the moral duty of preventing a horrible harm to others:
1. We are excused if we do not have the power or ability to prevent the horrible harm.
2. We are excused if we do not have the knowledge that the horrible harm is going to happen or is imminent.
3. We are excused if we are likely to be killed in the attempt to prevent the horrible harm.
4. We are excused if we are likely to sustain significant injury in the attempt to prevent the horrible harm.
5. We are excused if we are likely to suffer greatly in the attempt to prevent the horrible harm.
6. We are excused if allowing the horrible harm is necessary for preventing an even greater horrible harm.
7. We are excused if allowing the horrible harm is necessary for producing a great benefit which would outweigh the horrible harm.
8. We are excused if allowing the horrible harm would exactly fit a model of proper fair and just punishment for the victims.
Do those exceptions make sense to you? Do you agree with them? Can you think of any additional exceptions? If so, what are they?
We agree with you that the Quran is not the word of God. However, the Bible has been proven to be the word of God, for example, by fulfilled prophecies and many critics silenced by archaeological discoveries confirming the Bible. Your reading the Bible twice is not exactly an in-depth study of it.
Your “moral rule” is good and very well thought out, but the Bible gives us much simpler, yet even more profound principles to live by that actually work much better when applied:
“Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets”—Matthew 7:12 NLT
“Love your neighbor as yourself”—Matthew 22:39
Almighty God can use whatever means he wishes to communicate his message, including human intermediaries.
“There is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will, but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God”—2 Peter 1:21,22 NAB
RT11: We agree with you that the Quran is not the word of God. However, the Bible has been proven to be the word of God, for example, by fulfilled prophecies and many critics silenced by archaeological discoveries confirming the Bible.
GW11: Well, about 1.9 billion Muslims in the world believe the Quran is the word of God and the Bible is not. Do you see what happens when gods are alleged to use humans as intermediaries, as the Jews, Christians, and Muslims all allege? If God did exist, he would not dictate books to humans. He would speak directly to humans.
GW11: There is no good evidence that prophecies of the Bible have been fulfilled. There are many natural explanations for these alleged prophesies:
1. Later authors knew earlier prophesies and fabricated stories to match those prophesies.
2. Some persons knew earlier prophesies and acted in such a way to match them. (Self-fulfilling prophesy)
3. Most prophesies are vague, ambiguous, or imprecise. Rarely do they predict who, what, when, where, why, and how.
4. Some prophets may have just been good historians or sociologists who are correct in their predictions at a higher rate than lay persons.
5. Lucky guesses.
6. True positives are cherry-picked and false positives are ignored.
7. Metaphorical, figurative, or other non-literal writing is mistakenly interpreted as a prediction of the future.
GW11: Critics of miracles alleged by the Bible have not been silenced since no archaeological findings support the occurrence of miracles.
RT11: Your reading the Bible twice is not exactly an in-depth study of it.
GW11: I do an in-depth study of everything I read, including the Bible and Quran. Most Christians have never read the complete Bible even once. It has been shown that on average atheists have a better knowledge of the Bible than Christians do. I know enough about the Bible to know that all its claims about God are false since God does not exist.
RT11: Your “moral rule” is good and very well thought out, but the Bible gives us much simpler, yet even more profound principles to live by that actually work much better when applied:
GW11: The moral rule I presented to you is not just “good and very well thought out.” IT IS CORRECT! If you disagree, then tell us why. It is one specific moral rule applying to prevention of horrible harms. It is not an entire moral code. There are more moral rules within Correct Universal Ethics (CUE).
RT11: “Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets”—Matthew 7:12 NLT
GW11: This is a more general moral rule than the one I presented, but it is still consistent with it. You WOULD LIKE others to prevent a horrible harm to you, but allowing for the exceptions I listed.
RT11: “Love your neighbor as yourself”—Matthew 22:39
GW11: Same thing here. If YOU LOVE your neighbor as yourself, then you WOULD prevent a horrible harm to him/her, allowing for the exceptions.
RT11: Almighty God can use whatever means he wishes to communicate his message, including human intermediaries.
GW11: Of course he COULD, if he existed! After all, he would be all-powerful. However, this is not just about what he COULD do. It is about what he WOULD do. If he did exist, God would not use human intermediaries to communicate his messages. Why? First, their use leads to confusion and disagreement, as we have seen with the Bible and Quran, alleged to be God’s word. Secondly, using intermediaries does not validate the existence of God as direct communication would. Thirdly, direct communication is more efficient. You just don’t understand the concept of God. You pretend that your god, is God, when it is not. You underestimate the powers and goodness of God. If you would study your own Bible more, you would better understand the immense powers and goodness which God would have, if he existed.
RT11: “There is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will, but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God”—2 Peter 1:21,22 NAB
GW11: That is just a claim for which there is no good evidence. Besides, we aren’t talking about prophecies. We are talking about moral rules which would be devised and communicated by God.
GW11: Since you did not disagree with the moral rule I presented to you when you had the opportunity, I will assume for now that you AGREE with it. That’s great! It indicates progress. So, I will take the next step. THE RULE APPLIES TO ALL PERSONS, including God if he did exist. Therefore, God would have a default moral duty to prevent ALL horrible harms, including the Holocaust, UNLESS any of the eight exceptions applied to him. Do any apply to him? NO, they do not. Therefore, God would have a moral duty to prevent the Holocaust and he WOULD do that, if he did exist. Why? Because he would be all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly moral. You should now understand why God does not exist.
God has “spoken” directly, without using human intermediaries, to all on earth, in a “language” that all can understand:
“The heavens proclaim the glory of God. The skies display his craftsmanship. Day after day they continue to speak; night after night they make him known. They speak without a word; their voice is never heard. Yet their message has gone throughout the earth, and their words to all the world” (Psalm 19:1-4 NLT).
“Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse” (Romans 1:20 NAB).
This evidence validates God’s existence.
Just just of examples of prophecy being fulfilled as predicted the Book of Daniel:
Daniel was completed around 535 BCE. Please see the several articles on this site which document evidence of this.
11:21-39 accurately predicted the actions of Syrian King Antiochus IV Epiphanes that actually occurred around 175-164 BCE.
9:27 accurately printed the Roman army invading the temple in Jerusalem in 66 CE (see also Matthew 24:15).
The Bible has hundreds of prophecies which have been accurately fulfilled, all of which give evidence of God’s existence.
RT12: God has “spoken” directly, without using human intermediaries, to all on earth, in a “language” that all can understand:
GW12: False. First, there is no single language which all can understand. That’s a great idea though. I think the UN should develop, promote, and teach a new universal language. Secondly, God has not spoken directly to anyone or everyone. Why? Because God does not exist, as proven by my argument in which you have found no error.
RT12: “The heavens proclaim the glory of God. The skies display his craftsmanship. Day after day they continue to speak; night after night they make him known. They speak without a word; their voice is never heard. Yet their message has gone throughout the earth, and their words to all the world” (Psalm 19:1-4 NLT).
GW12: This is just a bad metaphor covering up a bad argument. The heavens don’t speak. How could they? They are not persons or intelligent agents. Secondly, the bad argument underlying the bad metaphor is the argument from design which has already been refuted. Here it is again:
Bad Argument from Design:
1. Intelligent agents, i.e. human persons, construct buildings and machines which are orderly and complex.
2. There are orderly and complex objects in the universe which surely must have been constructed by one or more intelligent agents similar to human persons.
3. The intelligent agent constructing these objects must have been God.
Premise #1 is true. Premise #2 is false or unproven. And the conclusion at #3 is also false or unproven. There is no good evidence in support of #2. But even if #2 were true, the responsible intelligent agent could be an advanced alien or a god besides God.
RT12: “Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse” (Romans 1:20 NAB).
GW12: This just implies the same argument from design which has been refuted. See above.
RT12: This evidence validates God’s existence.
GW12: False. For the raw data of order, complexity, and regularity in the cosmos, people have presented different hypotheses, explanations, or interpretations. One has been “God designed and created these things” but there are several others. One of these stands above all the rest – “These things are intrinsic and eternal to the cosmos.”
RT12: Just just of examples of prophecy being fulfilled as predicted the Book of Daniel:
Daniel was completed around 535 BCE. Please see the several articles on this site which document evidence of this.
11:21-39 accurately predicted the actions of Syrian King Antiochus IV Epiphanes that actually occurred around 175-164 BCE.
9:27 accurately printed the Roman army invading the temple in Jerusalem in 66 CE (see also Matthew 24:15).
The Bible has hundreds of prophecies which have been accurately fulfilled, all of which give evidence of God’s existence.
GW12: There are many alternative natural explanations for these alleged prophesies:
1. Later authors knew earlier prophesies and fabricated stories to match those prophesies.
2. Some persons knew earlier prophesies and acted in such a way to match them. (Self-fulfilling prophesy)
3. Most prophesies are vague, ambiguous, or imprecise. Rarely do they predict who, what, when, where, why, and how.
4. Some prophets may have just been good historians or sociologists who are correct in their predictions at a higher rate than lay persons.
5. Lucky guesses.
6. True positives are cherry-picked and false positives are ignored.
7. Metaphorical, figurative, or other non-literal writing is mistakenly interpreted as a prediction of the future.
GW12: Keep this in mind: To falsify the claim “All swans are white” all you need to do is find one swan which is not white. To falsify the claim “All Old Testament prophesies are from God and are accurate” all you need to do is find one prophesy which is inaccurate. So, here is one inaccurate prophesy: “14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.” Isaiah 7:14. “Jesus” is not the same as “Immanuel.” Game over.
GW12: You have said nothing more about the moral rule on prevention I presented to you or about how God would not meet any of its exceptions. I guess you agree with me on both. Therefore, God does not and cannot exist, as shown through the Holocaust argument.
Check out the articles on this site about the Book of Daniel, since they give powerful evidence that Daniel was written in the 6th century BCE. This evidence proves that the prophecies in Daniel are authentic in making future predictions.
Isaiah 7:14 did accurately predict, for Isaiah’s time, giving a “sign” that a “maiden”, or young woman, would give birth to a boy named “Immanuel”, which guaranteed that God was with his people Judah, and the threats against them by the combine of Syria and ten tribe Israel would come to nothing within 65 years (Isaiah 7:8,14; 8:10).
Hundreds of years later, Isaiah 7:14 was accurately fulfilled in an even greater way when the “virgin” Mary gave birth to Jesus, with the title-name “Immanuel” (Matthew 1:18-23).
RT13: Check out the articles on this site about the Book of Daniel, since they give powerful evidence that Daniel was written in the 6th century BCE. This evidence proves that the prophecies in Daniel are authentic in making future predictions.
GW13: Why would I check them out? There is no good reason for me to do that. First, you are just trying to make an argument for the existence of God based on prophesy. Well, that doesn’t work since even if these prophesies turned out to be correct, there is likely to be a correct naturalistic explanation and God would still not exist. Secondly, you won’t pursue a line of steady discussion about my argument, so why should I pursue a new line of discussion with you about Old Testament prophesies? I think that would be a waste of our time.
RT13: Isaiah 7:14 did accurately predict, for Isaiah’s time, giving a “sign” that a “maiden”, or young woman, would give birth to a boy named “Immanuel”, which guaranteed that God was with his people Judah, and the threats against them by the combine of Syria and ten tribe Israel would come to nothing within 65 years (Isaiah 7:8,14; 8:10).
GW13: This particular prophesy is incorrect. It doesn’t refer to Jesus since his name was not Immanuel. Duh.
RT13: Hundreds of years later, Isaiah 7:14 was accurately fulfilled in an even greater way when the “virgin” Mary gave birth to Jesus, with the title-name “Immanuel” (Matthew 1:18-23).
GW13: False. “Jesus” is not the same name as “Immanuel.” This leads me to a new argument.
1. If God did exist and the Bible was the word of God, then all prophesies in the Old Testament would be correct.
2. But the prophesy in Isaiah 7:14 is incorrect.
3. Therefore, either God does not exist or the Bible is not the word of God.
Take your pick.
GW13: Since you did not disagree with the moral rule I presented to you when you had the opportunity, I will assume for now that you AGREE with it. That’s great! It indicates progress. So, I will take the next step. THE RULE APPLIES TO ALL PERSONS, including God if he did exist. Therefore, God would have a default moral duty to prevent ALL horrible harms, including the Holocaust, UNLESS any of the eight exceptions applied to him. Do any apply to him? NO, they do not. Therefore, God would have a moral duty to prevent the Holocaust and he WOULD do that, if he did exist. Why? Because he would be all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly moral. You should now understand why God does not exist.
Isaiah 7:14 was accurately fulfilled with the birth of Jesus. Matthew records its fulfillment:
“This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit. Joseph, to whom she was engaged, was a righteous man and did not want to disgrace her publicly, so her decided to break the engagement quietly. As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. ‘Joseph, son of David,’ the angel said, ‘do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit. And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.’ All of this occurred to fulfilled the Lord’s message through his prophet: ‘Look! The virgin will conceive a child! she will give birth to a son, and they will call him him Immanuel, which means ‘God is with us’ (Matthew 1:18-23 NLT)).
Another prophecy fulfilled in the birth of Jesus was Micah 5:2:
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times” (Micah 5:2 NIV).
Seven hundred years later, Matthew records the fulfillment of the accurate prediction of the place of Jesus’ birth:
“After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod” (Matthew 2:1 NIV).
Prophecies also accurately predicted things about his trial and execution:
“False witnesses rise up against me” (Psalm 27:12 NIV).
“Ruthless witnesses come forward; they question me on things I know nothing about” (Psalm 35:11 NIV).
The New Testament records the accurate fulfillment:
“Many false witnesses came forward” (Matthew 26:60 NIV).
“Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him” (Mark 14:55,56 NIV).
RT14: Isaiah 7:14 was accurately fulfilled with the birth of Jesus. Matthew records its fulfillment:
“This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit. Joseph, to whom she was engaged, was a righteous man and did not want to disgrace her publicly, so her decided to break the engagement quietly. As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. ‘Joseph, son of David,’ the angel said, ‘do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. for the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit. And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.’ All of this occurred to fulfilled the Lord’s message through his prophet: ‘Look! The virgin will conceive a child! she will give birth to a son, and they will call him him Immanuel, which means ‘God is with us’ (Matthew 1:18-23 NLT)).
GW14: False. This prophesy was not fulfilled with the birth of Jesus. The prophesy was that the Messiah’s name would be “Immanuel,” and “Jesus” is not “Immanuel.” This is obvious. Also, if God did exist and he was going to have a son, he would not select a woman who was betrothed. Instead, he would select a single unattached woman. Also, he would not rape the woman. Instead, he would ask for her consent.
RT14: Another prophecy fulfilled in the birth of Jesus was Micah 5:2:
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times” (Micah 5:2 NIV).
GW14: False. This prophesy was not fulfilled with the birth of Jesus either. Jesus did not become the ruler over Israel. This is obvious. The Sanhedrin in Jerusalem did not recognize Jesus as the ruler over Israel.
RT14: Seven hundred years later, Matthew records the fulfillment of the accurate prediction of the place of Jesus’ birth:
“After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod” (Matthew 2:1 NIV).
GW14: The people who wrote the stories about Jesus, i.e. the Gospels, 30 or more years after his death FABRICATED some of the details of his life to match the OT prophesies. What is so amusing is that they were unable to assign the name “Immanuel” because Mary had assigned the name “Jesus” which Jesus used throughout his life. This important difference is evidence for the fabrication.
RT14: Prophecies also accurately predicted things about his trial and execution:
“False witnesses rise up against me” (Psalm 27:12 NIV).
“Ruthless witnesses come forward; they question me on things I know nothing about” (Psalm 35:11 NIV).
The New Testament records the accurate fulfillment:
“Many false witnesses came forward” (Matthew 26:60 NIV).
“Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him” (Mark 14:55,56 NIV).
GW14: First, we see that important details, e.g. dates, times, and places, are left out of the prophesies. Secondly, we see that the stories about Jesus were written not during his life or even within the year after his death, but 30 years or more later. The NT authors knew the OT prophesies and wrote their stories to match the prophesies, for the most part. In other instances Jesus himself may have acted in ways to match the prophesies.
GW14: You have made two claims about prophesies of the Bible: 1) They were all accurate or fulfilled. And 2) The prophesies were dictated, enabled, or empowered by God. I have falsified both of these claims. The Isaiah 14:7 prophesy was not accurate. And God does not exist, as shown by my argument.
GW14: I have explained my Holocaust argument to you in detail. By now you should understand it. If you still don’t, then just ask me questions and I will answer them. But, the definitions are sound, the premises are true, and the logic is impeccable per Modus Tolens. Therefore, the conclusion is and must be true. God does not exist. We both wish that God did exist, but sadly he does not.
Matthew 1:18 tells us that, “BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER, SHE WAS FOUND TO BE PREGNANT THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT” (NIV). God did not become a man. He’s never become a man (Numbers 23:19). The Holy Spirit is invisible and not a person, but is God’s “power” (Acts 1:8), nothing physical. There was no “rape”, as you allege.
God can select whomever he wishes in order to accomplish his purposes.
RT15: Matthew 1:18 tells us that, “BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER, SHE WAS FOUND TO BE PREGNANT THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT” (NIV).
GW15: Before Mary and Joseph had any sexual interaction, Mary was raped by the Holy Spirit. This verse from Matthew does not contradict my claim.
RT15: God did not become a man. He’s never become a man (Numbers 23:19).
GW15: Some Christians claim that God did become a man in the form of Jesus, but that would have been at conception, not before intercourse. I never claimed that Mary was raped by a man. I claimed that she was raped by God, and so your comment here is irrelevant.
RT15: The Holy Spirit is invisible and not a person, but is God’s “power” (Acts 1:8), nothing physical.
GW15: A rape can occur by a visible person or by an invisible person, so the visibility factor is irrelevant here. There are two different views of the Holy Spirit. One view (apparently not yours) is that the Holy Spirit is a person, one of the three persons in the Trinity. The other view (apparently yours) is that the Holy Spirit is just an extension of God himself. But this does not matter to my claim. Mary was raped either by the Holy Spirit or by God. Take your pick.
RT15: There was no “rape”, as you allege.
GW15: False. Mary was raped as I have alleged. This becomes clear when you read these verses from Luke 1, NIV:
“26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”
38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.”
GW15: What is the correct moral rule regarding any sexual activity, including intercourse? It is this: “Any person X wishing to engage in sexual activity of any kind with another person Y should ask Y for their consent and get that consent before proceeding. And if X proceeds without asking for or getting this consent, then X has engaged in rape or sexual molestation.” Therefore, according to the Gospel of Luke, the Holy Spirit or God violated this moral rule with respect to Mary. And also, the Holy Spirit or God violated another moral rule forbidding sex with a child. Either God does not exist, or Luke is talking about another god who is not God, or the Bible is not the word of God. Take your pick.
GW15: Also, you have found no error in my Holocaust argument. God does not exist, regardless of your belief. Actually, you don’t believe in God anyway. You believe in a lesser god who would allow the Holocaust.
Your false allegation that Mary was raped by God reminds of:
“Mockers are proud and haughty; they act with boundless arrogance” (Proverbs 21:24 NLT).
“Do not lift up your horns against heaven; do not speak so defiantly” (Psalm 75:5 NIV).
You obfuscated the fact that Micah 5:2 accurately predicted that Jesus, the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Matthew 2:6 confirms this.
When Jesus rode into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, he was hailed by the “great crowd” as “the king of Israel” (John 12:12,13 NIV). Governor Pilate’s written public notice “fastened to the cross” was “JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS” (John 19:19 NIV).
RT16: Your false allegation that Mary was raped by God reminds of:
GW16: I have proven that my allegation is true. You have not proven that it is false. You probably don’t understand the concept of rape. If you do not ASK FOR AND ACQUIRE CONSENT IN ADVANCE of sexual activity, but engage in it anyway, then you have committed rape, sexual assault, or sexual molestation. In this case, it would be rape since an impregnation occurred. Show me the words in Luke which say that God or the Holy Spirit ASKED FOR CONSENT IN ADVANCE. You can’t, because they are not there. The god who did this apparently wasn’t God. God would not conduct himself in the manner described. Maybe it was Satan who raped Mary. Given the details of the story, Jesus would not be the offspring of God.
RT16: “Mockers are proud and haughty; they act with boundless arrogance” (Proverbs 21:24 NLT).
GW16: I’m not mocking anybody. I am just presenting the facts.
RT16: “Do not lift up your horns against heaven; do not speak so defiantly” (Psalm 75:5 NIV).
GW16: I disagree. One should speak defiantly against immoral and/or illegal behavior. That’s what I have done, even though the story is fiction. I am criticizing the behavior of the fictional character who committed the rape in the story.
GW16: You didn’t even deny my second charge – that God or the Holy Spirit had sex with a child, which is also immoral. Estimates of Mary’s age at the time of her “divine knockup” are 14-16 years. That means that she was a child at the time. If God did exist, he would never select a child to impregnate. Therefore, either God does not exist or the story in Luke is false which would mean that the Bible could not be the inerrant word of God. From other considerations, i.e. my Holocaust argument, we know the former is true – God does not exist.
GW16: Suppose you, stalked a 15 year old girl as she walked home from school. And then you said to her “I’m going to make you pregnant with the son of God.” And then you had sex with her behind the bushes and she got pregnant. Would that be moral? Would that be legal in the state where you live? That behavior would be wrong in the two ways I have described, regardless of who did it, or when, or where it was done. If you disagree, then there is something seriously deficient with your moral code.
GW16: Oh, come to think of it, God’s sexual exploitation of Mary would be immoral in a third way – she was betrothed to Joseph at the time. God would never select a betrothed girl to knock up.
GW16: Did you know that Muhammad was also accused of having sex with a child? Did you know that many priests, pastors, and preachers have been accused of raping and molesting children? This is one of many reasons why Christianity is in decline.
Your false allegations ar disproved by the scriptures.
“Gabriel appeared to her and said, ‘Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!'” (Luke 1:28 NLT).
Mary is referred to as a “woman”, with no age given, but she was not a teenager as you allege.
RT17: Your false allegations ar[e] disproved by the scriptures.
GW17: Absolutely not! I am now making four allegations and they are all proven by the verses in Luke or by other information: 1) The Holy Spirit immorally selected a child (Mary) to impregnate. 2) The Holy Spirit immorally selected a betrothed female (Mary) to impregnate. 3) The Holy Spirit immorally sent an intermediary, i.e. an angel, to pressure the girl (Mary) to later have sex with the Holy Spirit. And 4) Neither the angel nor the Holy Spirit asked for and received consent from the girl (Mary) to have sex with the Holy Spirit IN ADVANCE, and thus the Spirit committed rape. I know these facts must be embarrassing to you.
RT17: “Gabriel appeared to her and said, ‘Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!’” (Luke 1:28 NLT).
GW17: First, you are using the wrong Bible version, i.e. NLT. We must use the version, i.e. NIV, favored by the most respected scholars. Secondly, you are taking one verse out of the context which would give the full picture of the circumstances. And thirdly, even the verse you quote is not one in which the angel asks for consent.
RT17: Mary is referred to as a “woman”, with no age given, but she was not a teenager as you allege.
GW17: She was a female child. You don’t know your Bible as well as you think you know it. Here are some quotes and links for you to study:
1. “Mary was actually a young teen when she gave birth to Jesus, historians believe. Just how young? Historians agree that Mary was most likely between 12 and 14 years old when Jesus was born.”
https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/bible-study/how-old-was-mary-when-she-had-jesus.html
2. “Historians agree that Mary was most likely between 12 and 14 years old when Jesus was born.”
https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/how-old-was-mary-when-she-had-jesus.html
3. “In this passage of Scripture, we are not told Mary’s age, yet we are told she was a virgin and was pledged to be married to Joseph. During this time in history, Jewish girls would have been betrothed (engaged) to their husbands as early as the age of 12-years-old. Scholars believe Mary would have been somewhere between 12-16 years old when she had Jesus…It is believed that Mary would have been about 14 years old when Gabriel gave her the news of the Lord being born to her.”
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/holidays/do-we-know-how-old-mary-was-when-she-had-jesus.html
4. “While the Bible does not specifically state how old Mary was when Jesus was born, most Christian historians speculate that she was around 15—16 years of age at the time of Jesus’ birth. According to Jewish customs at the time, a young woman might become betrothed to a young man as early as 12 years of age, though the consummation of their marriage through ceremony and physical intimacy would not happen until they were legally married, many months or even years later.”
https://www.gotquestions.org/how-old-was-Mary.html
GW17: I think I might just write an article for publication on this whole sordid affair. Your attempt at refutation has utterly failed. I don’t know why you revere the Bible so much. It is full of holes, inconsistencies, contradictions, falsehoods, unproven statements, and moral infractions, as we have seen just in our discussions.
You’re welcome to comment on this site as long as you use good taste. False allegations about God or the Holy Spirit having sex with Mary, or other sexual suggestions, will not be tolerated, neither will bad language or off-color remarks. If you wish to continue to comment on this site, you must adhere to these guidelines. Otherwise, you risk having your comments deleted or you being banned from this site.
RT17: You’re welcome to comment on this site as long as you use good taste.
GW17: First, I always use good taste. Secondly, that should not be your forum rule. Why? Because “taste” is too subjective, relative, and biased. Instead, you should welcome and allow all people to participate, as long as they are civil towards other participants. And I am always civil to other participants. Thirdly, you are prone to censor people, including me, who strongly disagree with you, and that would be unethical. Disagree with, debate with, dispute with people who disagree with you, but don’t censor them! Don’t engage in “cancel culture”. That kind of behavior has become typical of the extreme right and left in this country. What a shame.
RT17: False allegations about God or the Holy Spirit having sex with Mary, or other sexual suggestions, will not be tolerated,…
GW17: I have made no false allegations in this regard. If you believe I have, then prove it. Did you censor my last posting? If so, you are behaving unethically.
RT17: neither will bad language or off-color remarks.
GW17: “Bad language” and “off-color remarks” are in the eyes of the beholder. I have not used any of those. You just don’t agree with what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with “colorful” language.
RT17: If you wish to continue to comment on this site, you must adhere to these guidelines.
GW17: I have not engaged in any uncivil speech on this website and I have adhered to all the guidelines you just stated. Making what you believe to be a false statement in not uncivil. It is just disagreement with your point of view.
RT17: Otherwise, you risk having your comments deleted or you being banned from this site.
GW17: I’ll continue to speak in my usual rational, truthful, sincere, honest, assertive, and civil manner. But you will probably either delete some of my comments or ban me from the site because you have trouble tolerating disagreement. Are you going to boot off your best participant in the forum?
GW17: And why do you keep evading my Holocaust argument. If you don’t wish to talk about God, Mary, and Jesus, then focus on my argument. Duh.
We’re in control of this website, not you, and we make the rules here. You’ve been warned.
There is no indication anywhere in the Bible that Mary was only 12-16 years old when Jesus was conceived. The commentaries you quoted from that claim such things are entirely speculative, and violate the Bible principle about ‘not going beyond what is written in Scripture’ (1 Corinthians 4:4). Speculations and false doctrines are condemned in scripture (1 Timothy 1:3,4), and they are rejected on this site.
BibleAuthenticity WIFE says: GW, your comments referencing the Mother of Christ are despicable, Additionally, you cannot use this site as a forum for “teenage sex talk:. You do not own this site, my husband does, and yes he can censor your comments and should. You are “out of control” with your commentary. Please find another site to visit. Thank you.