Is the Universe Only Six Thousand Years Old?
Is the universe only six thousand years old?
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”—Genesis 1:1
Modern astronomical science now agrees with the Bible that the universe had a beginning. Many people, including those who believe in Young Earth Creationism (YEC), think that the entire universe, including the earth, was created in six literal 24 hour days 6,000 years ago. This idea is in conflict with astronomical science, which has proven the universe is about 13.7 billion years old. Two lines of evidence for this are the number of light years away the farthest galaxies are from us, and the second is the Cosmic Background Radiation. Astronomers and scientists are forced to accept this fact, even though they are uncomfortable with the Biblical implications.
YEC actually contradicts the Bible itself in a number of ways, some of which will be mentioned here. (For an in-depth discussion of this issue, please see the book “A MATTER OF DAYS” by Hugh Ross.) People who are aware of the proven scientific facts that the universe had a beginning about 13.7 billion years ago make fun of the Bible and Christianity because of YEC. This is unfortunate, and there is no need for it.
Did God ‘Speak the Universe Into Existence’?
“Praise him sun and moon . . . stars . . . at his command they were created”—Psalm 148:3,5 NIV
“Then God said, ‘Let there be light’; and there was light”—Genesis 1:3 NKJV
YEC adherents boldly assert that God simply spoke the universe into existence, from nothing. There was no gradual process. When the Bible is read superficially, or viewed in an overly simplified way, wrong conclusions as to its meaning can, and often are, drawn. The above verses are some typical examples of this. Yes, God commanded, and things were created. However, there is much more to it than that. The Bible neither says, nor implies, that ‘God simply “spoke”, and –“poof”– the entire universe as it exists today instantaneously came into existence about 6,000 years ago. The Bible says that, “Yahweh . . . created the heavens and spread them out” (Isaiah 42:5 NJB). In full agreement with modern astronomical science, the Bible, 2,700 years ago, used language which implies the universe started very small and expanded from that point. The universe is still expanding at just the critical rate, so that it will go on expanding forever, without collapsing in on itself, or flying apart so as to lose the gravitational bound of stars and galaxies, etc. The process of stars dying and being born is going on constantly throughout the universe.
Was the Big Bang a Random Explosion?
“Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth” (Job 38:33 NIV). God must have established the physical “laws” which govern the universe prior to the so-called ‘Big Bang’ creation event that started the universe off into existence. This event was not chaotic or disorderly, but was very orderly. There was nothing, and then God transformed energy into matter from a point of singularity, which then expanded into the universe that exists today. “Yahweh . . . spread out the heaven” (Zechariah 12:1 NJB). The beginning of the universe, the Big Bang, was not a random event. It was a deliberate, highly organized, creative act by the Almighty Creator.
Is Genesis 1:1,2 Part of the First Creative Day Narrative?
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). This very brief summation is prior the start of the six creative days relative to the earth that start in Genesis 1:3. It shows that the universe, including the stars and our sun and moon, were already in existence before the first creative day. The specific reference to the sun, moon, and stars on the 4th creative day (Genesis 1:16) doesn’t mean they weren’t created prior to the 4th day, but that their discs could not be seen from the surface of the earth until then. It took that long for the earth’s atmosphere to clear up enough to allow their discs to be seen from earth’s surface. The earth orbits around the sun and is gravitational bound to it, so the sun had to exist prior to the earth. The earth, in its formative state, was already in existence prior to the first creative day:
“The earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters” (Genesis 1:2 NRSV). Even though everything about the earth wasn’t yet exactly like its eventual form, the earth was already in existence prior to the start of the six creative days. Using figurative language to describe the process, Zechariah 12:1 says, “Yahweh . . . hammered into shape the earth” (NJB). During this long period of time prior to the first creative day, the earth was in “darkness.” The sun’s light did not reach the surface of the earth, likely because of dense cloud cover.
The fact that Genesis 1:1,2 is a prologue to what follows is clearly seen by the introductory words to each of the six creative days: “And God said,” or “Then God said” (Genesis 1:3,6,14,20,24). YEC asserts that what is described in Genesis 1:1,2 is part of the events of the first creative day (Genesis 1:3-5). The fact that Genesis 1:1 does not have the introductory words, “And God said,” or, “Then God said,” is evidence it describing events prior to the start of the first creative day.
Are the Six Creative Days Each 24 Hours Long?
“These are the geneses of the heavens and the earth when they were created,–in the day [“yom”] when Yahweh God made earth and heaven”—Genesis 2:4 Emphasized Bible
In Genesis 2:4, “In the day [“yom”] that the LORD God made the heavens and the earth” (NRSV), the Hebrew word for “day”, “yom”, is used, and it represents, or summarizes, the entire six creative days relative to the earth. So obviously “yom”, or “day”, represents a much longer time period than just 24 hours. The point here is that, even though “yom” in the Bible often means 24 hour time periods, it can also mean indefinitely long time periods, or even time periods shorter than 24 hours. “Yom” is used in a very interesting way to describe something else on the first creative day:
“God called the light ‘day’ [“yom”] and the darkness he called ‘night.’ And there was evening and there was morning–the first day” (Genesis 1:5 NIV). Here in Genesis 1:5, describing the first creative “day” relative to the earth, when the earth’s surface was no longer in darkness, but light began to penetrate the thick clouds, mists, etc., enshrouding the earth, it is very obvious that “day” cannot be a 24 hour period. Why? Because, if the word “day” in the Bible always means a 24 hour period and the six creative days relative to the earth were 24 hours each, this 24 hour “day” is further subdivided into two parts, “day” and “night”, making “day” less than 24 hours, in this case. However, the context here shows that “yom,” or “day,” is something other than a simply a 24 hour time period. Let’s look at other examples of how “yom” is used in the Bible for periods of time other than 24 hours:
“Now in the days [“yom”] of the wheat harvest” (Genesis 30:14 NASB). “The wheat harvest” lasts for weeks, yet that period of time is referred to by “yom,” which, in this case, is obviously longer than 24 hours.
“You lived in the wilderness a long time [“yom”]” (Joshua 24:7 NIV). “Yom,” in this case, represents a 40 year period of time.
“In the day [“yom”] of harvest” (Proverbs 25:13 NIV). This verse gives further evidence that “yom,” the Hebrew word for day, day can be longer than 24 hours, in this case a period of many days or weeks, during which time crops would be harvested.
“On that day [“yom”] there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. It will be a unique day[“yom”] –a day known only to the LORD–with no distinction between day [“yom”] and night. When evening comes, there will be light. On that day [“day”] living water will flow from Jerusalem, half of it to the east to the Dead Sea and half of it to the west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter. The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day [“yom”] there will be one LORD, and his name the only name” (Zechariah 14:6-9 NIV). In these verses “day,” or “yom,” is used five times. Four of these uses of “day” represent a yet future very long period of time, when “the LORD will be king over the whole earth.” In one of these uses of “day”, “day” represents light. In none of them does “day” mean a 24 hour day.
In view of all that God accomplished during Genesis 1:1,2, there is no reason to insist that this was not prior to the start of the six creative days regarding the earth. Additionally, in view of what God did during the six creative days in Genesis 1:3-31, there is no valid reason to insist that these days of creation are limited to 24 hours each! Genesis 1:1 presents the picture that universe had a beginning and its creation has already been accomplished by God. Genesis 1:2 informs us that the earth had existed in a transitional, formless, empty state, prior to the start of the first creative day regarding the earth.
Does the Expression ‘Evening and Morning’ Mean a 24 Hour Day?
The first six creative days are each individually summarized as, “and there was evening and there was morning” (Genesis 1:5,8,13,19,23,31). This expression is unique, only being used in Genesis 1. It seems to indicate that, at the start of each creative day (“evening”), things weren’t clear as to what God would create on that day, but after God had finished his work on that day, it was clearly obvious (“morning’) what God had created. The expression, ‘morning and evening,’ used in Genesis 1 is figurative, not literal. Other scriptures also use ‘evening and morning’ in a figurative way. For example, “His anger lasts but a moment, his favor for a lifetime. At dusk weeping comes for the night, but at dawn there is rejoicing” (Psalm 30:6 NAB [30:5]).
The ancient Hebrews generally marked their 24 hour days with an expression like “from the evening of the ninth day of month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath” (Leviticus 24:32 NIV). Their 24 hour days ran from ‘evening to evening,’ not from ‘evening to morning.’ Thus, the expression in Genesis 1, “there was evening and there was morning,” is very strong evidence that these creative days were not 24 hours long.
The fact that light began to reach the earth on Day 1, and the statement that “there was evening and there was morning,” which is also translated as “The twilight and the dawn were day one” (Genesis 1:5 ISV), present a serious problem for YEC, which asserts that the sun wasn’t even created until Day 4. Why? Because there could be no “twilight” and “dawn” on earth without the sun being in existence.
How Long Were the Creative Days?
“Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing, so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done”—Genesis 2:1-3 NIV
The expression “and there was evening and there was morning” is not used regarding the seventh day. This omission from the Genesis creation account is important, for there is no indication that the seventh day of God’s rest from creating has ended, not then, and not now.
“So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest'”—Psalm 95:11 NIV
This is an indication that God’s rest was continuing in the time of King David. Hebrews 3:7-4:11 draws from Psalm 95 in making the case that the seventh creative day of God’s Sabbath rest continues:
“For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: ‘On the seventh day God rested from all his works’ . . . There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their own works, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest”—Hebrews 4:9-11 NIV
Since Christians are strongly urged to “make every effort to enter that rest”, God’s seventh creative day of rest must still be continuing until now, for the words of Hebrews to Christians still apply. This is very strong evidence that the seventh creative day of rest has been going on for at least 6-7,000 years. While, there is no indication that all seven creative days are of the exact same length of time, the Biblical evidence strongly indicates that each of the first six creative days must be periods of time that are least thousands of years long, at a minimum, because the 7th creative day has being going on for over 6,000 years.
The Bible does not tell us how long the creative days were, but it does give us powerful evidence that they were not 24 hours long. In this case, we can use the scientific evidence that they likely were each at least several thousands of years long.
25 thoughts on “Is the Universe Only Six Thousand Years Old?”
I am not interested in the question “WAS THE EARTH CREATED IN SIX 24 HOUR DAYS?”
Because God is God (He is who He is). God can do everything as He wants.
I have a question: WHAT IS ORIGINAL SIN? WHY DOES IT INFLUENCE ALL OF HUMAN BEINGS?
LET’S EXAMINE THE ORIGINAL SIN AND ANALYSE IT AS CLEARLY AS A SCIENCE
THEORY.
This is a big, important question that the gentiles often ask lots of Christian disciples but they can not afford to make a transparent, sciencetific response to them.
WE SHOULD NOT EVADE THIS QUESTION ANYMORE!
GOD WILL HELP US TO FIND A TRANSPARENT, SCIENCETIFIC RESPONSE FOR THE MANKIND.
Thank God!
In Jesus’ name. A-MEN!
This web site does not “evade” any legitimate Biblical question, as you seem to imply! Almighty God warned the first humans not to eat from one certain tree that he clearly identified for them, and that if they did, death would be the result (Genesis 2:15-17). After they disobediently ate this forbidden fruit, God confronted them and explained that not only death, but many other problems would result (Genesis 3:16-19). Romans 5:12 explains what happened, “just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (NIV). Humans became tainted with sin, and their bodies suffered as a result, including their DNA. Therefore humans could only pass on their tainted DNA to their offspring, resulting in their offspring inheriting sin and death.
“God must have established his physical “laws”, which govern the universe, prior to the so-called ‘Big Bang’ creation event that started the universe off into existence.”
GW: The physical laws do not “govern” the universe. Those laws DESCRIBE the regularities and orderliness of the universe. It is highly likely that the Big Bang is just a transition event in an eternal universe, as I have previously shown. And of course, it has been proven that God does not exist.
“Even though the earth wasn’t yet exactly like its eventual form, the earth was in existence prior to the start of the six creative days.”
GW: This implies that God did his creative work with an already existing universe.
“The point here is that, even though “yom” often means 24 hour time periods, it can mean indefinitely long time periods.”
GW: It is clear from the context that the Genesis author meant “yom” as a 24 hour time period.
“In the day of harvest”—Proverbs 25:13 NIV This verse gives further evidence that “yom” or day can be longer than 24 hours, in this case a period of many days or weeks, during which time crops would be harvested.”
GW: This is flim flam since the author of Genesis was not the same as the author of Proverbs. The author of Genesis intended for “yom” to mean a 24 hour day, regardless of what the later author of Proverbs intended.
“This is an indication that God’s rest was continuing in the time of King David.”
GW: Nonsense! As an omnipotent being, God would not need rest.
“While we cannot say that all seven creative days are of the exact same length of time, the Biblical evidence strongly indicates that the first six creative days must also be periods of time that are least thousands of years long.”
GW: For a consistent interpretation of “yom” the days would all have to be the same exact length. The reason the author wants them to be of different lengths is because he knows that the record of evolution doesn’t match the record of Genesis if the “yoms” are all of the same length. This is ad hoc and deceptive.
Laws can only come from lawgivers. “The LORD [Yahweh] is our judge, the LORD [Yahweh] is our lawgiver, the LORD is our King” (Isaiah 33:22 NIV). The physical laws do indeed govern the universe. For example, the universe could not work were it not for gravity, and gravity set at precisely the strength that it is. Starting in Genesis 1:3, God did his creative work with an already existing universe. However, Genesis 1:1 describes how God created the universe at the time when there was nothing. No universe existed prior to its creation. Hebrews 11:3 confirms this, “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what is visible” (Hebrews 11:3 NIV). Various Bible writers used the Hebrew word “yom,” which is a word that can mean a 24 hour day, or a period of time. This period of time can be shorter than 24 hours, or a time period that is much longer than 24 hours. Proof that the writer of Genesis used “yom” (day) to represent time periods other than 24 hour days is found in Genesis. “This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day [yom] that the LORD [Yahweh] made earth and heaven” (Genesis 2:4 NASB). All six creative are here summed up as ‘one day’. “Now in the days [yom] of the wheat harvest” (Genesis 30:14 NASB). Here, “yom” represents a number of weeks, not 24 hours. “Then let me bear the blame before you forever” (Genesis 43:9 NASB). Here, “yom” means “forever”. “If I do not bring him back to you, I will bear the blame before you, my father, all my life” (Genesis 44:32 NIV). Here, “yom” represents Judah’s lifetime. No, God did “rest” on the seventh day because he was tired. The Septuagint renders what happened in understandable terms: “On the sixth day God finished his works that he had made, and he left off on the seventh day form all his works that he had made. And God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it he left off from all his works that God had begun to make” (Genesis 2:2,3 NETS).
GW: Why do you keep citing Bible verses when you know that I have no respect for or trust in them? The authors of those verses have less credibility than you actually do.
RT: Laws can only come from lawgivers.
GW: False. You are still confusing natural laws with legislated laws. Natural laws are just descriptions of the way natural processes work, while legislated laws are products of a group of human persons and are designed to prescribe, govern, or control human behavior.
RT: “The LORD [Yahweh] is our judge, the LORD [Yahweh] is our lawgiver, the LORD is our King” (Isaiah 33:22 NIV).
GW: God does not exist, as my argument has proven. If God did exist, he would undoubtedly present to us laws legislated by him alone to control our behavior and he would present them to us in a grand revelation which would be current, clear, unambiguous, universal, and objective. Because this has never happened, this is another reason how we know that God does not exist. The Tuckergod is just too small.
RT: The physical laws do indeed govern the universe.
GW: False again. The physical laws or natural laws DESCRIBE, but do not govern the universe. For example, gravity is a feature of the universe, and the way it works can be described in a law of gravitation. You can use this law to accurately predict how fast a bowling ball will fall when dropped from the roof of a ten story building and how long it will take. The mathematical formula of the natural law doesn’t cause, control, or govern anything. It merely describes.
RT: For example, the universe could not work were it not for gravity, and gravity set at precisely the strength that it is.
GW: The universe could certainly work without gravity. It would just work in a different way. What is your evidence that the strength of gravity was SET? You have none. The strength of gravity has always been the same since the advent of matter. There is no evidence that anyone fixed the strength of gravity. There is not even any evidence that the strength of gravity could be any different than what it is.
RT: Starting in Genesis 1:3, God did his creative work with an already existing universe.
GW: Yes, that is an accurate summary of the story. Of course, we now know that God does not exist.
RT: However, Genesis 1:1 describes how God created the universe at the time when there was nothing. No universe existed prior to its creation.
GW: Genesis 1:1 does not say there was nothing before God created the heavens and the earth. There was at least one thing – God himself, and that would not be nothing. As we have discussed before, if God did exist, he probably created the universe, i.e. “the heavens and the earth,” out of himself! If energy could not come from nothing, then it would have come from God, analogous to a graft or the use of stem cells.
RT: Hebrews 11:3 confirms this, “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what is visible” (Hebrews 11:3 NIV).
GW: Yes, this is concluded by faith, speculation based on wishful thinking. We now know that God does not exist. The ancient authors of the Bible did not know this.
RT: Various Bible writers used the Hebrew word “yom,” which is a word that can mean a 24 hour day, or a period of time. This period of time can be shorter than 24 hours, or a time period that is much longer than 24 hours. Proof that the writer of Genesis used “yom” (day) to represent time periods other than 24 hour days is found in Genesis. “This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day [yom] that the LORD [Yahweh] made earth and heaven” (Genesis 2:4 NASB). All six creative are here summed up as ‘one day’. “Now in the days [yom] of the wheat harvest” (Genesis 30:14 NASB). Here, “yom” represents a number of weeks, not 24 hours. “Then let me bear the blame before you forever” (Genesis 43:9 NASB). Here, “yom” means “forever”. “If I do not bring him back to you, I will bear the blame before you, my father, all my life” (Genesis 44:32 NIV). Here, “yom” represents Judah’s lifetime. No, God did “rest” on the seventh day because he was tired.
GW: We discussed this already yesterday. In the creation story of Genesis, the author meant for “yom” to refer to a single 24-hour day, although other authors might have meant it to mean something else. This is clear from the context of the actual text.
RT: The Septuagint renders what happened in understandable terms: “On the sixth day God finished his works that he had made, and he left off on the seventh day form all his works that he had made. And God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it he left off from all his works that God had begun to make” (Genesis 2:2,3 NETS).
GW: If God did exist, it would not take him six days to do his creation work. He could have and would have done it in a second! So even the creation story in Genesis cannot be correct. Besides, we already know that God does not exist, which is shown by my argument which you continue to evade.
GW: Possible Law of Big Bangs: If and when any compressed particle of energy exceeds a quantity X, a density Y, and a temperature Z, all at the same time, then the particle will expand at a rapid rate R. This expansion is called a “Big Bang.”
According to the figures of physicist Brandon Carter, if the strength of the gravitational force were altered by a just one part in 10 raised to the 40th power, the universe would only consist of red dwarfs or blue giants. “Stars like the sun would not exist, nor, one might argue, would any form of life that depends on solar-type for its sustenance” (Paul Davies, English physicist and mathematician). “It turns out that ‘constants of nature,’ such as the strength of gravity, have exactly the values that allow stars and planets to form . . . the universe, it seems, is fine-tuned to let life and consciousness flower” (Edward Kolb, physicist, of the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory). Science cannot tell us why this the case, but the Bible does. For example, “Your word, LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens. Your faithfulness continues through all generations; you established the earth, and it endures. Your laws endure to this day, for all things serve you” (Psalm 119:89-91 NIV).
RT: According to the figures of physicist Brandon Carter, if the strength of the gravitational force were altered by a just one part in 10 raised to the 40th power, the universe would only consist of red dwarfs or blue giants. “Stars like the sun would not exist, nor, one might argue, would any form of life that depends on solar-type for its sustenance” (Paul Davies, English physicist and mathematician).
GW: That claim by itself might be true, although other figures have been provided by other physicists, but it doesn’t confirm your belief in a fine tuner. It simply means that if things were slightly different just before the Big Bang, the effects would be greatly different now. So what? That’s just a deduction from Chaos Theory or the Butterfly Effect which has been known for a long time. But so far, nobody has conclusively demonstrated that the strength of the gravitational force was ever any different from what it is now or that it COULD BE DIFFERENT. In addition, if it could be different there are several possible causes for this. So your fine tuner idea holds no water.
RT: “It turns out that ‘constants of nature,’ such as the strength of gravity, have exactly the values that allow stars and planets to form . . . the universe, it seems, is fine-tuned to let life and consciousness flower” (Edward Kolb, physicist, of the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory).
GW: And allow black holes, increasing entropy, an expanding universe, atomic bombs, murder, and a Holocaust to occur. The key word here is “seems.” Seems to whom? It doesn’t seem to me at all that the universe is fine tuned, for the reasons I have presented above. Also, if the constants of nature were different, a different form of life may have emerged.
RT: Science cannot tell us why this the case, but the Bible does.
GW: False. Neither science nor the Bible tells us why the constants have the values they have. Not yet. We are in a phase of ignorance about this.
RT: For example, “Your word, LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens. Your faithfulness continues through all generations; you established the earth, and it endures. Your laws endure to this day, for all things serve you” (Psalm 119:89-91 NIV).
GW: We know this hypothesis is false because we have proven by other evidence, reasons, and arguments that God does not exist. You continue to evade my particular argument. I don’t think you will ever deal with it directly, openly, and honestly.
GW: You are just presenting arguments which have already been refuted repeatedly.
I agree with most of what you write; that is yom as a 24 hour day in Beresheis; however, to take from your argument that G-d does not exist is to invalidate all that you discuss. Without G-d, there is no meaning to the discussion. G-d exists. Always has and will.
Thank you for your comments. You may have misunderstood what is in the above article, because it appears that you think it is saying that God does not exist. This article and this website are devoted to proving the fact that God does exist, and that the 66 books comprising the Bible are his “God-breathed”, or “inspired”, written communication to mankind (2 Timothy 3:16). Please go back and re-read the above article. Possibly you’re referring to the above atheistic commenter Gary Whittenberger, who denies that God exists.
Yes, Ross, I think he misunderstood. We have both tried to clarify.
RS1: I agree with most of what you write; that is yom as a 24 hour day in Beresheis; however, to take from your argument that G-d does not exist is to invalidate all that you discuss.
GW1: False. We know that God does not exist from other arguments, but we can discuss the myth of God as it is portrayed in the Bible.
RS1: Without G-d, there is no meaning to the discussion. G-d exists. Always has and will.
GW1: False. There is meaning to the discussion even if God does not exist, and he doesn’t. We can discuss what God would do and not do if he did exist. Nothing wrong with that.
GW1: BTW, Ross claims God does exist, whereas I claim he does not. It has now been proven that God doesn’t exist. Haven’t you read my proof?
To: Dr Ramon Sandoval—-The expressions of atheist Gary Whittenberger are in opposition to the purpose of this website. This website actively promotes belief in the Biblical Almighty God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1; Revelation 4:8,11). The Bible refers to atheists as ‘fools’, who are in denial of the abundant evidence of God’s existence (Psalm 14:1; 19:1-4; 53:1; Romans 1:20).
To: Dr. Ramon Sandoval– We now know that God does not exist. There are several sound proofs of this, but as you will see, Ross Tucker, the founder of this website, just ignores these proofs. Both fools and wise men say “God does not exist” and they happen to be correct.
We, at this website, do not have enough faith to be atheists. Atheism requires more “faith,” than believing in “the Lord God Almighty”, who “created all things” (Revelation 4:8,11 NIV), because all the evidence is indicative of a Creator. True “faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see” (Hebrews 11:1 NIV). Atheists, like Gary Whitenberger, change the definition of faith to credulity, which is blind belief in something without any evidence, even contrary to the evidence.”
RT: We, at this website, do not have enough faith to be atheists.
GW: It takes no faith to be an atheist. What is faith? Faith is belief untuned to or misaligned with evidence and/or logic, and usually tuned to or aligned solely or primarily with authority, majority opinion, peer pressure, tradition, intuition, wishes, or some combination of these.
RT: Atheism requires more “faith,” than believing in “the Lord God Almighty”, who “created all things” (Revelation 4:8,11 NIV),
GW: Atheism requires no faith. Atheists do not have religious beliefs. However, I know that God does not exist. This has been proven.
RT: …because all the evidence is indicative of a Creator.
GW: The Creator hypothesis is only one of six hypotheses we have to explain the data and the least likely of the six.
RT: True “faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see” (Hebrews 11:1 NIV).
GW: Yes, faith is wishful thinking (hope) in the absence of sufficient supporting evidence (what we do not see).
RT: Atheists, like Gary Whitenberger, change the definition of faith to credulity, which is blind belief in something without any evidence, even contrary to the evidence.”
GW: My definition matches the Biblical one from Hebrews 11:1.
GW: Here is a good example of faith: “I have faith that Jesus came back to life.” There is no good evidence that this happened and yet people believe it happened anyway. That’s what faith is – without sufficient evidence or logic believing something you wish were true.
GW: Here is the proof which Ross continues to evade. Maybe somebody else would like to comment on it since Ross won’t.
Proof Against the Existence of God Based on COVID: The Long Version (7-21-2021, Refined 12-13-2021, Gary Whittenberger)
1. Definition: God is the hypothetical supernatural, unique, independent, eternal, invulnerable, everywhere-present, all-knowing, perfectly rational, all-powerful, perfectly moral person or intelligent agent who created the cosmos, sometimes intervenes in our world, and assigns human persons to different desirable or undesirable conditions after they die.*
2. If God did exist, then he would be all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly moral. These are the three traditional omni-traits attributed to God, which are most relevant in the current context.
3. Definition: “All-knowing” is the hypothetical trait of a person or intelligent agent who knows everything which can possibly be known about anything and everything; having complete accurate knowledge of all facts, including about the past, the present, and the future and about the laws of nature. The exception would be that this trait would not include knowing anything which is logically impossible to know.
4. Definition: “All-powerful” is the hypothetical trait of a person or intelligent agent who is capable of doing anything which is logically possible to do.
5. Definition: “Perfectly moral” is the hypothetical trait of a person or intelligent agent who behaves morally 100% of the time or in 100% of the opportunities.
6. Definition: “Moral” is the condition of behaving in respectful, cooperative, compassionate, just, and reasonable ways towards other persons and behaving in compliance with moral rules comprising Correct Universal Ethics (CUE).
7. The CUE moral rule pertinent to prevention is this: Person X should attempt to prevent any moderate to severe harm H1 to any person Y or group of persons Z, if and only if 1) X certainly or probably knows about the opportunity to help by prevention, 2) X is certainly or probably able to prevent the harm, 3) X will certainly or probably not die in the prevention attempt, 4) X will certainly or probably not be permanently injured in the prevention attempt, 5) X will certainly or probably not suffer greatly in the prevention attempt, 6) allowing H1 is probably or certainly not necessary to preventing greater harm H2, and 7) allowing H1 is probably or certainly not necessary to producing a benefit B which outweighs the harm H1. Any person X has a moral duty to attempt to prevent harm H1 if all seven of these contingencies are satisfied. Persons are moral if they attempt to prevent a moderate to severe harm when all seven relevant specific contingencies are met; otherwise they are immoral.
8. Definition: The COVID-19 Pandemic occurring in the period 2019-2022 is a set of harms which is current, severe, widespread, and indiscriminate. As of 5-24-2022, just in the US alone there have been 83,145,591 cases of the disease and 999,384 deaths from it. The COVID-19 Pandemic is a severe harm.
Source: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_casesper100klast7days
9. If God did exist, then because he would be all-knowing he would certainly know about the opportunity to help human persons by preventing the pandemic.
10. If God did exist, because he would be all-powerful he would certainly be able to prevent the pandemic.
11. If God did exist, because he would be all-powerful, invulnerable, and eternal he would certainly not die, be permanently injured, or suffer greatly in any attempt to prevent the pandemic.
12. If God did exist, because he would be all-powerful his allowing the pandemic would certainly not be necessary to prevent some greater harm. God would be able to prevent any greater harm without allowing the pandemic. The laws of necessity or nature which apply to human persons would not apply to God.
13. If God did exist, because he would be all-powerful his allowing the pandemic would certainly not be necessary to produce some benefit which outweighs the pandemic. God would be able to produce any benefit without allowing the pandemic. The laws of necessity or nature which apply to human persons would not apply to God.
14. Thus, if God did exist, because he would be all-knowing, all-powerful, invulnerable, and eternal, he would satisfy all seven contingencies of the CUE moral rule pertinent to prevention of the COVID-19 Pandemic.
15. And if God did exist, because he would be perfectly moral he would conform to the CUE moral rule pertinent to prevention and would have prevented the COVID-19 Pandemic. It would not exist.
16. However, the COVID-19 Pandemic does exist.
17. Therefore, God does not exist.
*Note 1: The word “God” is the proper name for this one specific god, just like “Thomas Jefferson” is the name for one specific man and US president.
*Note 2: Most of the 2.4 billion Christians, most of the 1.9 billion Muslims, and about half of the 14 million Jews in the world believe that this specific god exists.
*Note 3: Sometimes God is also conceived to be all-loving, omni-benevolent, perfectly good, perfectly caring, perfectly righteous, or perfectly just. All these traits can be simply subsumed under ‘perfectly moral.’
Your definition of faith, that you’ve given above, is exactly what you have in your atheism. For example, in spite of the scientifically proven fact that the universe had a beginning, popularly called the “Big Bang”, you claim the universe had no beginning. This belief of yours fits your definition of faith (which is credulity) precisely. What is now a proven scientific fact, was already documented in the Bible 3,500 years ago. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).
RT: Your definition of faith, that you’ve given above, is exactly what you have in your atheism.
GW: False. Try to prove that claim. You can’t.
RT: For example, in spite of the scientifically proven fact that the universe had a beginning, popularly called the “Big Bang”, you claim the universe had no beginning.
GW: You are just misstating the facts. You and others SPECULATE that the universe had a beginning called the “Big Bang,” but this is hardly a fact. It is a fact that the Big Bang did occur, but it is not a fact that this was the beginning of the universe. In fact, I have given you three good reasons why the universe is probably eternal.
GW: Unfortunately, your understanding of physics and cosmology is out of date and is based on minority religious physicists. I recommend that you watch these three films to broaden your perspective and bring you up to date:
1 Sean Carroll – Did the Universe Begin?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgpvCxDL7q4
2. Roger Penrose – Did the Universe Begin?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFqjA5ekmoY
3. Did the Universe Have a Beginning? | Episode 1201 | Closer To Truth
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrWmn1XXtRiyRUAbwkPxQt.;_ylu=Y29sbwNncTEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3BpdnM-?p=You+tube%3A++Did+the+universe+begin%3F&xargs=0&type=ud-c-us–s-p-era3edek–exp-none–subid-none¶m1=xx7l6a7sfm8xzjj4p6uhdvsj&hsimp=yhs-040&hspart=infospace&ei=UTF-8&fr=yhs-infospace-040#id=5&vid=acd0ae80f1584a1f10c1f8a5e8288294&action=view
RT: This belief of yours fits your definition of faith (which is credulity) precisely.
GW: No, it doesn’t. Just the opposite is the case. Your beliefs that the universe had a beginning and that the Big Bang marked its beginning are both based on faith because the evidence does not conclusively point in favor of that claim, but you pretend that it does. If you are honest, then you must acknowledge that we don’t yet know if the universe had a beginning or not. The evidence is insufficient at this time to draw a conclusion on the matter. However, I have given you three good reasons to think that the universe is probably eternal, and you choose to ignore those reasons. In addition, you provide no good reasons to think that the universe had a beginning. To think that it does contradicts your other belief that something cannot come from nothing. And so, your belief system is actually self-contradictory.
RT: What is now a proven scientific fact, was already documented in the Bible 3,500 years ago. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).
GW: What you assume to be a fact is not a fact. You would know this if you were up to date with your knowledge of physics and cosmology. Also, we now know that God does not exist, as I have proven, and that Genesis 1:1: is therefore false. You have continued to evade my proof. Why do you do that?
You need to bring your self up-to-date on cosmology. According to the Wikipedia article “Universe”, the Big Bang is the prevailing cosmological theory, which says that the universe and space and time emerged together about 13.87 billion years ago, and has been expanding ever since.
RT: You need to bring your self up-to-date on cosmology.
GW: I am already up to date. You are about 25-50 years behind. I have been citing the leading cosmologists and sending you articles and film clips to help you update your knowledge base.
RT: According to the Wikipedia article “Universe”, the Big Bang is the prevailing cosmological theory, which says that the universe and space and time emerged together about 13.87 billion years ago, and has been expanding ever since.
GW: There are three problems with this”
1) You have provided no quotes from your source to discuss.
2) Wikipedia is not as reputable a source as the ones I have cited to you.
3) Space and time already existed prior to the Big Bang. A primordial particle of energy, existing in space-time, expanded rapidly about 13.9 billion years ago. The expansion continues today.
GW: You are still evading my proof that God does not exist. I am pleased, however, that you are evading the subject on your own forum.
You, like other atheists, are still in denial of the most current, proven, scientific facts. In the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article “Universe”, it states the fact that the universe, space and time emerged together about 13.87 billion years ago, and as proof, references “Astronomy and Astrophysics”, The Planck Collaboration, Planck 2018 results, September 2020. There is no need for us to go back and forth about this when you continually hide from the facts.
RT: You, like other atheists, are still in denial of the most current, proven, scientific facts.
GW: False. I, unlike some atheists and theists, fully accept all the most current, proven, scientific facts. However, you are making up alternative facts, like Donald Trump made up an alternative fact regarding the 2020 election. The Big Bang occurred. This is a fact. However, we do not have any facts about what came before the Big Bang. You claim a fact where none exists. We are all entitled to speculate about it, but your speculation is the most unlikely to be true, whereas my speculation, i.e. that universe is eternal, is the most likely to be true. Besides, we know that God does not exist from several proofs which you continue to evade.
RT: In the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article “Universe”, it states the fact that the universe, space and time emerged together about 13.87 billion years ago, and as proof, references “Astronomy and Astrophysics”, The Planck Collaboration, Planck 2018 results, September 2020.
GW: You still are providing no quote to discuss. If you want to discuss a claim from Wikipedia, then state the relevant sentences within clear quotation marks. That’s the proper way to present a quote. When you say “it states the fact…” you are trying to paraphrase, not quote.
RT: There is no need for us to go back and forth about this when you continually hide from the facts.
GW: As long as you continue to state your speculations as if they are facts, I will continue to refute your claim.
GW: Did you watch these film clips? Did you learn anything from them? If so, please summarize.
1 Sean Carroll – Did the Universe Begin?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgpvCxDL7q4
2. Roger Penrose – Did the Universe Begin?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFqjA5ekmoY
3. Did the Universe Have a Beginning? | Episode 1201 | Closer To Truth
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrWmn1XXtRiyRUAbwkPxQt.;_ylu=Y29sbwNncTEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3BpdnM-?p=You+tube%3A++Did+the+universe+begin%3F&xargs=0&type=ud-c-us–s-p-era3edek–exp-none–subid-none¶m1=xx7l6a7sfm8xzjj4p6uhdvsj&hsimp=yhs-040&hspart=infospace&ei=UTF-8&fr=yhs-infospace-040#id=5&vid=acd0ae80f1584a1f10c1f8a5e8288294&action=view
“A sluggard buries his hand in the dish; he is too lazy to bring it back to his mouth. A sluggard is wiser in his own eyes than seven people who answer discreetly” (Proverbs 26:15,16 NIV).
The specific reference to Wikipedia and its sources was specially provided for you to easily look at for yourself. Since you refuse to do this, it’s obvious you’re not interested in the truth.
“They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10 NIV).
RT: “A sluggard buries his hand in the dish; he is too lazy to bring it back to his mouth. A sluggard is wiser in his own eyes than seven people who answer discreetly” (Proverbs 26:15,16 NIV).
GW: I agree. I’m pleased that we are not sluggards.
RT: The specific reference to Wikipedia and its sources was specially provided for you to easily look at for yourself. Since you refuse to do this, it’s obvious you’re not interested in the truth.
GW: Since you refuse to provide exact brief and relevant quotes from your alleged sources, it’s obvious that you’re not interested in the truth. You are the one making the claim that the universe was created by God, and so you have the burden of proof. This means that if you cite sources, you have the burden of providing quotes to support your position. That’s the way rational debate works.
GW: Does the Wikipedia article say that God created the universe? No? I didn’t think so.
RT: “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10 NIV).
GW: We all perish, whether we love the truth or we don’t.
GW: On the other hand, if you loved the truth, you would discuss my proof with me. But you continue to evade it. I am pleased that your readers see this
No, you refuse to consider any truth of science or the Bible which disagrees with your atheism, by refusing to look at the easy to see reference in Wikipedia.
“If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words” (1 Timothy 6:3,4 NIV). The purpose of this website is to spread the truth about God, the Creator, and his Word, the Bible, and not to engage in endless debates with those who simply take pleasure in debating. We’re glad to respond to to those who have a genuine interest in learning, but that is not the case with you, apparently.
RT: No, you refuse to consider any truth of science or the Bible which disagrees with your atheism, by refusing to look at the easy to see reference in Wikipedia.
GW: Present the Wikipedia quotes and I will consider them. That is your obligation.
GW: One of your greatest errors is the failure to understand that we do not know that the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe. That is still undetermined. Also, there are different kinds of beginnings. The Big Bang might have marked the beginning of the existence of the universe or the beginning of a new phase of an eternal universe or something else. As I have shown, an eternal universe is more likely. In fact the former idea CONTRADICTS your own conclusion that something cannot come from nothing.
RT: “If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words” (1 Timothy 6:3,4 NIV).
GW: I disagree. We now know that God does not exist. We also know that Jesus was just another man, a traveling evangelist, similar to the ones we see today.
RT: The purpose of this website is to spread the truth about God, the Creator, and his Word, the Bible, and not to engage in endless debates with those who simply take pleasure in debating.
GW: We know the purpose of the website, but God does not exist. My purpose is to spread the truth.
RT: We’re glad to respond to to those who have a genuine interest in learning, but that is not the case with you, apparently.
GW: Of course I’m interested in learning. Are you? If you were, then you would discuss my proof with me.
GW: I think you are getting ready to censor me on your website merely because I disagree with you. We’ll see.