Trinity Debate – Reply to a Trinitarian
Below are some excerpts from a debate with a Trinitarian on an online forum, with the Trinitarian’s comments quoted verbatim :
Trinitarian said…
“ONLY ONE DIVINE BEING who exists within himself eternally and simultaneously as three distinct Personal Self-Awarenesses, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”
These type of statements are pure fiction, as this premise has no Biblical support. Actually, there are three problems with them:
- No Biblical proof
- Contradicts the Bible
- Makes no sense – eternal life depends on knowing God – John 17:3. Something that is nonsensical, like the Trinity God, cannot be known.
Trinitarian said…
“And it is true, since the Almighty IS Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Yet not three Almighties, but only ONE Almighty…and he has NO equal. There is none like our God. And our God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
This unscriptural assertion is contradicted by scriptures such as:
“Two witnesses… I am one; my other witness is the Father.” (John 8:17-18 NIV)
Jesus’ math (real math) is: 1+1=2.
Trinitarian said…
“This is a common JW tactic, “translation shopping”. Finding the only translation that renders it the way you like it and that’s one you use. By this tactic, you can “prove” almost anything you want, especially if you cherry pick renderings from a wide range of translations, many of which were done by individuals with specific theological biases.
“And it is an outlier. All other major translations render it “Mighty God”. The NAB translators made a huge interpretive leap in rendering it “God-Hero”. Especially since the actual Greek text of the passage actually reads “Mighty God”. It does NOT actually read “God-Hero”. It says “Mighty God”. They have to read INTO the text something that is NOT THERE in order to GET the rendering “God-Hero”. So, I’m sorry, but your argument is based upon a very questionable rendering which is based upon a very specific INTERPRETATION of the text, not on what the text itself actually SAYS.”
Actually, the JW’s use their own Bible, the New World Translation. You’re attempting to make Isaiah 9:6 a translation issue, which it is not. The vast majority of translations translate “El Gibhor” as “Mighty God.” And that’s the point. “Mighty” is less than “Almighty,” which is “El Shaddai.” Jesus (El Gibhor) is less than Yahweh (El Shaddai).
Trinitarian said…
“Yes, he can:
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were created through him, and without him not one thing that was made came into being. John 1:1-3″
Your argument here is self-defeating since God had no beginning. John 1:1-3 does not say the Word, Jesus, had no beginning. It simply says he was with his Father at the beginning of the universe. This makes sense, since the Bible says God created Jesus first (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14 ESV), which was before the universe was created.
Trinitarian said…
“Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I AM.“”
Similar point. Jesus existed prior to Abraham. Jesus is not, as Trinitarians claim, identifying himself as being “The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob” at Exodus 3:14,15 ( NIV). On the contrary, “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has glorified his servant Jesus” (Acts 3:13 NIV). Jesus is not only not “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”, he is not the “I am”, but is “his ervant”, meaning Jesus is not equal, but inferior to him.
Trinitarian said…
“So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed. John 17:5″
Ditto. Jesus was God’s first creation.
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.'” (Revelation 3:14 ESV)
Trinitarian said…
“the exact imprint of God’s very being”
An imprint is not the same as the original. It looks like it, but it is inferior.
Trinitarian said…
“In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth”
Jesus was there at the beginning of the earth and was used by God to make it. (Genesis 1:26)
Trinitarian said…
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Hebrews 13:8″
Yes, in the Bible, Jesus is always the “Son of God,” never “God the Son.” Twelve verses later in this same chapter, verse 20 refers to “the God of peace, who brought up from the dead our Lord Jesus.” So who is more powerful? Obviously, “the God of peace,” who resurrected Jesus “from the dead.”
Trinitarian said…
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.“….”I am the first and the last, and the living one. I was dead, and see, I am alive forever and ever.” Revelation 1:8, 18
You’re defeating your own argument by trying to merge the two speakers, God and Jesus, ten verses apart here, into one. Aren’t you the one who says there are three separate beings? If that is your position, why don’t you hold to it? The speaker in vs. 8 is “the Lord God… the Almighty.” The speaker in vs. 18 is the “Son of Man” (verse. 13), Jesus, who “died.”
Trinitarian said…
“And the one who was seated on the throne said, “See, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.” Then he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.” Revelation 21:5-6
Similar to the title Lord applying to God, Jesus and humans. But that does not make them equal. “Apostle” describes Jesus at Hebrews 3:1, but that doesn’t make him equal to human apostles, such as Peter, James, John and Paul, does it?
Trinitarian said…
“He was “the beginning of God’s Creation” because he was the SOURCE of God’s Creation! He CREATED IT ALL! (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2) All of creation has it’s origins (beginning) in him. It does not mean that HE was the first creation of God!”
Your statements here “twist” the scriptures you cite, claiming they say something that they do not say. (2 Pt 3:16 ESV)
- ”All things were created through him.” (John 1:3 CSB) Obviously, the Word, Jesus, is not the source of God’s creation. He, Jesus, is the conduit through which it is made.
- “For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (Colossians 1:16-17 ESV) “By him all things were created” – as God’s agent. “All things were created through him” – as God’s main conduit or channel.
- “But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe” (Hebrews 1:2 NIV)). God “appointed” Jesus. The one making the appointment is superior, is he not? “Through the Son he created the universe” (NLT)- This is the same unified account of Jesus as God’s agent.
Trinitarian said…
“Being the “firstborn of all creation” doesn’t mean first BORN, meaning the “first ‘creature’ God created”.”
So “born” doesn’t mean “born?” Hmmm, you’re trying to present “alternative facts”. Trinitarians don’t like Jesus being referred to as “firstborn” because it so clearly devastates their pet dogma, so they change the meaning of “firstborn” at Col 1:15. When we start changing the meaning every time we run into words that don’t fit our pet beliefs, we’re really in trouble. Firstborn is also used at Luke 2:7,23; Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:18; Hebrews 1:6; 11:28; 12:23 and Revelation 1:5. Your invented explanation only creates confusion.
Trinitarian said…
“The term is used throughout Scripture to indicate the POSITION of the son over his father’s estate.”
Because “firstborn” means what it says: born first! See Deuteronomy 21:15-17.
Since Jesus is the “firstborn of all creation,” he is a creature. Only his Father is the Creator. There is a huge difference.
Trinitarian said…
“they are EQUAL BY NATURE!”
This is fiction. The Creator has no equal. “Who is my equal?” (Isaiah 40:25) – No one! “Who will you compare me or make me equal to?” (Isaiah 46:5) – No one! Even his firstborn creature, Jesus, does not come close.
Trinitarian said…
“Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death–even death on a cross. Philippians 2:5-8″
Both God and Jesus are spirits, but Jesus would never for an instant regard himself as equal to his Father.
Trinitarian said…
“the exact imprint of God’s very being”
Jesus is a replica of his Father’s substance, like an exact impression made by a seal on clay or wax. But the replica or impression does not equal the original.
Trinitarian said…
“he sustains all things by his powerful word.”
Christ is not like Atlas, the mythical Greek god who held the world on his shoulders. The Son of God dynamically holds together all that has been created through him. This is very similar to Colossians 1:17: “In him all things hold together.” (ESV) The wording “in him” lets us know he is God’s agent to hold everything together. But this is no equality.
Trinitarian said…
“Tell me, friend, OF WHOM could ever POSSIBLY be said “he sustains all things by his powerful word” except GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF? No ANGEL or CREATED BEING upholds the universe. God ALONE upholds the universe. Yet this says that the SON upholds the universe!”
As his Father’s agent, yes.
“The Son can do nothing by himself.” (John 5:19)
“By myself I can do nothing.” (John 5:30)
Trinitarian said…
“Equality by NATURE, subject as to his AUTHORITY.”
Jesus referred to his Father as “Creator” (Matthew 19:4 NIV). Jesus is clearly referred to as “the firstborn of every creature” (Colossians 1:15 KJV), and “when God brings his firstborn into the world” (Hebrews 1:6 NIV). Thus, obviously there can be no equality between the Creator and his creatures.
6 thoughts on “Trinity Debate – Reply to a Trinitarian”
Trinity is the root cause of me losing my faith. I’m done – done with people saying I’m a heretic, an apostate, and NOT a Christian over a man-made demonic false doctrine that took almost 400 years to devise. I’m done with Christianity.
You are exactly right in your assessment of the Trinity doctrine as being “a man-made demonic false doctrine that took almost 400 years to devise.” However, I urge you, and implore you, to not give up, and exit Christianity altogether. The situation in Christianity is exactly what the Scriptures predicted it would be: “Men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them” (Acts 20:30 NIV). “God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie” (2 Thessalonians 2:11 NIV). “In later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons” (1 Timothy 4:1 NIV). “The time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine . . . They will turn . . . away from the truth . . . and turn aside to myths” (2 Tim 4:3,4 NIV). They “preach a different Jesus” (2 Corinthians 11:4 NIV). While there doesn’t seem to be any church, denomination, or group that exactly ‘preaches the word’ (2 Timothy 4:2), you should not leave Christianity. Why not? Christianity is like the “net” that has “all kinds” in it (Matthew 13:47 NIV), “weeds among the wheat” (Matthew 13:25 NIV). Jesus said: “LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST” (Matthew 13:30). When is this? “The harvest is the end of the age” (Matthew 13:39 NIV). When people “will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with power and glory” (Mark 13:26 NIV), that is, at the very end. In the meantime, “preach the word” (2 Timothy 4:2), and “let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven” (Matthew 5:16 NIV).
Thanks for your reply.
To give you an example of how foolish Trinitarians can be. I was on a popular Christian forum that had a categories for everyone, and one category for ‘Christians only’. When they saw I was non-Trinitarian they removed me from the ‘Christian only’ category. There was a Hindu girl on there who said she believed in the Trinity and was allowed to post on the ‘Christian only’ category. Her Trinity of course was the Hindu Trinity which consist of “Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.”
I was removed from several forums for being non-Trinitarian. Even on blogs when Trinitarians see they’ve been backed into a corner, that’s when they start deleting replies and making it about me, questioning my salvation, telling me I’m lost and a heretic, etc. The ultimate result is always being removed from posting on the blog.
Thank you so very much for sharing your experiences in dealing with Trinitarians! This is so classic, it is almost unbelievable. I prayerfully hope that you’re not “done with Christianity”. The rejection of God’s word (Jeremiah 8:9) in favor of “man-made ideas” (Mark 7:7 NLT), results in “foolishness” (1 Corinthians 3:19 NIV), ‘hatred and persecution’ (John 15:18-21). There “are only a few people going to be saved” (Luke 13:24 NIV). But, hang in there!
“The one who stands firm to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:13 NIV).
Thanks again. I’m hanging onto Jesus and just can’t have anything to do with his judgmental Trinitarian followers. I’ve spoken to many pastors in my lifetime and some of them admit the Trinity is flawed but have to give the appearance of believing in it because the denomination does. E.W. Bullinger knew that if he would have disclosed his rejection of Trinity, his works would have never been published. He finally did admit it on his death bed.
Thanks so much, once again! Your insight into this situation is incredible! Reminds me of John 12:42,43. Keep up your great work and endurance.