Below are some excerpts from a debate with a Trinitarian on an online forum, with the Trinitarian’s comments quoted verbatim :
Trinitarian said…
“ONLY ONE DIVINE BEING who exists within himself eternally and simultaneously as three distinct Personal Self-Awarenesses, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”
These type of statements are pure fiction, as this premise has no Biblical support. Actually, there are three problems with them:
- No Biblical proof
- Contradicts the Bible
- Makes no sense – eternal life depends on knowing God – John 17:3. Something that is nonsensical, like the Trinity God, cannot be known.
Trinitarian said…
“And it is true, since the Almighty IS Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Yet not three Almighties, but only ONE Almighty…and he has NO equal. There is none like our God. And our God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
This unscriptural assertion is contradicted by scriptures such as:
“Two witnesses… I am one; my other witness is the Father.” (John 8:17-18 NIV)
Jesus’ math (real math) is: 1+1=2.
Trinitarian said…
“This is a common JW tactic, “translation shopping”. Finding the only translation that renders it the way you like it and that’s one you use. By this tactic, you can “prove” almost anything you want, especially if you cherry pick renderings from a wide range of translations, many of which were done by individuals with specific theological biases.
“And it is an outlier. All other major translations render it “Mighty God”. The NAB translators made a huge interpretive leap in rendering it “God-Hero”. Especially since the actual Greek text of the passage actually reads “Mighty God”. It does NOT actually read “God-Hero”. It says “Mighty God”. They have to read INTO the text something that is NOT THERE in order to GET the rendering “God-Hero”. So, I’m sorry, but your argument is based upon a very questionable rendering which is based upon a very specific INTERPRETATION of the text, not on what the text itself actually SAYS.”
Actually, the JW’s use their own Bible, the New World Translation. You’re attempting to make Isaiah 9:6 a translation issue, which it is not. The vast majority of translations translate “El Gibhor” as “Mighty God.” And that’s the point. “Mighty” is less than “Almighty,” which is “El Shaddai.” Jesus (El Gibhor) is less than Yahweh (El Shaddai).
Trinitarian said…
“Yes, he can:
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were created through him, and without him not one thing that was made came into being. John 1:1-3″
Your argument here is self-defeating since God had no beginning. John 1:1-3 does not say the Word, Jesus, had no beginning. It simply says he was with his Father at the beginning of the universe. This makes sense, since the Bible says God created Jesus first (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14 ESV), which was before the universe was created.
Trinitarian said…
“Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I AM.“”
Similar point. Jesus existed prior to Abraham. Jesus is not, as Trinitarians claim, identifying himself as being “The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob” at Exodus 3:14,15 ( NIV). On the contrary, “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has glorified his servant Jesus” (Acts 3:13 NIV). Jesus is not only not “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”, he is not the “I am”, but is “his ervant”, meaning Jesus is not equal, but inferior to him.
Trinitarian said…
“So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed. John 17:5″
Ditto. Jesus was God’s first creation.
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.'” (Revelation 3:14 ESV)
Trinitarian said…
“the exact imprint of God’s very being”
An imprint is not the same as the original. It looks like it, but it is inferior.
Trinitarian said…
“In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth”
Jesus was there at the beginning of the earth and was used by God to make it. (Genesis 1:26)
Trinitarian said…
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Hebrews 13:8″
Yes, in the Bible, Jesus is always the “Son of God,” never “God the Son.” Twelve verses later in this same chapter, verse 20 refers to “the God of peace, who brought up from the dead our Lord Jesus.” So who is more powerful? Obviously, “the God of peace,” who resurrected Jesus “from the dead.”
Trinitarian said…
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.“….”I am the first and the last, and the living one. I was dead, and see, I am alive forever and ever.” Revelation 1:8, 18
You’re defeating your own argument by trying to merge the two speakers, God and Jesus, ten verses apart here, into one. Aren’t you the one who says there are three separate beings? If that is your position, why don’t you hold to it? The speaker in vs. 8 is “the Lord God… the Almighty.” The speaker in vs. 18 is the “Son of Man” (verse. 13), Jesus, who “died.”
Trinitarian said…
“And the one who was seated on the throne said, “See, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.” Then he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.” Revelation 21:5-6
Similar to the title Lord applying to God, Jesus and humans. But that does not make them equal. “Apostle” describes Jesus at Hebrews 3:1, but that doesn’t make him equal to human apostles, such as Peter, James, John and Paul, does it?
Trinitarian said…
“He was “the beginning of God’s Creation” because he was the SOURCE of God’s Creation! He CREATED IT ALL! (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2) All of creation has it’s origins (beginning) in him. It does not mean that HE was the first creation of God!”
Your statements here “twist” the scriptures you cite, claiming they say something that they do not say. (2 Pt 3:16 ESV)
”All things were created through him.” (John 1:3 CSB) Obviously, the Word, Jesus, is not the source of God’s creation. He, Jesus, is the conduit through which it is made.
“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (Colossians 1:16-17 ESV) “By him all things were created” – as God’s agent. “All things were created through him” – as God’s main conduit or channel.
“But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe” (Hebrews 1:2 NIV)). God “appointed” Jesus. The one making the appointment is superior, is he not? “Through the Son he created the universe” (NLT)- This is the same unified account of Jesus as God’s agent.
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