Thank you. You can check all comments, any time. I have to approve them before they are made public. Unless they are extreme, all comments are approved. However, it can sometimes take a day before I can get to it. I encourage your comments here!
That is an excellent question, thank you! Just to be clear, you are using the word “sick” in the sense of physically “sick”. First Corinthians 11:30 and James 5:14-16 use the word “sick” in the sense of spiritually “sick”. We can pray along the lines of Psalm 41:3, “Yahweh sustains him on his bed of sickness; you transform altogether the bed where he lies sick” (NJB). Our prayers for those physically sick can be that Yahweh will help them to deal with their sickness in a positive way, such as getting the proper rest and nutrition and seeking appropriate medical care, and accept what the outcome is. Also we can pray that the person’s own God-given recuperative powers will return the person to health, if it is God’s will.
Hi,
I am Phat. I am Christian. I am very fond of your siite’s name “BibleAuthenticity” because I have been seeking the truth. For me, God,s word is so miraculous! If we love God and His teachings, we have to stuydy and understand thoroughly. In Mathew 7:7-8 says: ” Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.” NASB bible.
I hope I will receive “Bible Authenticity” from your site.
Truth Seeker
Thank you for your comments expressing appreciation for God and his Word, as well as this site, which is humbly dedicated to “defending and confirming the gospel” (Philippians 1:6 NIV), “with reverence and awe” of God the Almighty (Hebrews 12:28 NIV). May God bless you in your efforts!
WHY HAVE CHRISTIANS NOT BEEN ABLE TO MAKE OTHERS UNDERSTAND GOD AND JESUS’ GREAT SACRIFICE FOR MANKIND IN A TRANSPARENT AND SCIENTIFIC WAY?
The Bible verse that Christians often refer to and almost always memorize is the verse in the Gospel of John, chapter 3, verse 16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (NIV). Whom does the above verse in John’s Gospel, chapter 3, verse 16 actually express God’s love for? Only for Christians? It’s not like that! Who is that for? To tell the truth, it is for all mankind! As such, every Christian should have understood thoroughly the great love and sublime sacrifice of Jesus. They must deeply feel God’s love for humanity. They must feel that they are very blessed people because of having a valuable chance to understand God and accept Jesus as the Savior of their lives. They were redeemed from their sins by God; and have always been deeply devoted to helping people awaken and receive divine salvation. But in general, why have Christians not been able to make others understand God and Jesus’ great sacrifice for mankind in a transparent and scientific way?
Thank you for your good comments and questions! Jesus advised, warned, and also predicted: “Enter through the narrow gate. for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” (Matthew 7:13,14 NIV). This is exactly how it is. Only a very few, just as Jesus accurately foretold, really want to travel the difficult “road that leads to life”. The vast majority choose to travel the easy, or perhaps the selfish, “road that leads to destruction”. Jesus, “the Word was made flesh” (John 1:14 NIV), and said, “the one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me” (John 12:45 NIV). Jesus “taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law” (Matthew 7:29 NIV). Even some who were not his disciples admitted, “No one ever spoke the way this man does” (John 7:46 NIV). Lack of belief in Jesus was widespread: “Though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” (John 1:11-13 NIV). Jesus commented: “Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me” (John 15:20,21 NIV). Since the vast majority rejected Jesus and his teachings, the vast majority, Jesus said, would reject his Christian disciples teachings as well. It’s just as the prophet said, “The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?” (Jeremiah 5:31 NIV).
God is the truth. God’s word is always right. The bible is the book that is the most authentic. God’s word presents His love for the mankind. God’s word is never outdated. We, Christians believe in God and live under His teachings while being in this world. Thank God for all our lives!
“For the Lord is good and His love endures forever; His faithfulness continues through all generations” Psalm 100:5 NIV
God’s word is never outdated although we are living in the twenty-first century.
The 21st century of humanity today is an era that people reach a civilization that has made great progress in almost all fields. The science and technology that humans have achieved is a spectacular leap compared to generations not long ago. The applications of scientific and technological achievements to the present life are colorful, colorful and extremely vivid. They bring practical and extremely useful benefits to today’s young people from the perspective of studying, commuting, entertaining, working, etc.
The general life-style of the 21st century youth is trending to various pragmatic life-stles. They are living on the earth and are thinking and watching everything on earth with their pragmatic views. So it is very difficult for them to understand and be familiar to people living in a remote country and the history of their nation which happened many centuries ago. They may feel vague and unfamiliar with God’s word in the bible. This is an issue that needs to be investigated to find out why it leads to such a sad situation? At present time there are no good people? Does no one have the heart to seek the truth of salvation?
If we just stand on a subjective stance and make such a judgment, it is unfair for today’s young people. But if it is not the fault of the young generation, then where is the fault? This is a very important question! This is a problem that needs to be thoroughly investigated in order to have an effective solution to the problem. Let Christianity not continue to be thwarted, but illuminate the world with wonderful spiritual science!
God’s word is absolutely never outdated! God’s word is not as dry as dogmas of religions but it is living word of God’s. If young people can be read or listened to sermons of God’s word in a transparent and scientific style, they will understand easier and will be familiar with persons, things and places in the bible that have special deeply meanings hidden in God’s word.
GOD’S WORD IS ABSOLUTELY NEVER OUTDATED! The bible and God’s teachings should be sudied as well as preached in a transparent and scientific style, Right?
LET CHRISTIANITY NOT CONTINUE TO BE THWARTED, BUT ILLUMINATE THE WORLD WITH WONDERFUL SPIRITUAL SCIENCE!
A-MEN!
God’s Word can, and should be, taught in a way that goes deeper than religious dogmas and cliche’s, yet in a simple, but uncompromised way. Jesus taught in a simple way with clarity. We should his “example,” as we’re advised to do (1 Peter 2:21 NIV). “He taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of law” (Matthew 7:29 NIV). This is our example. Yes, it is true that “the student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master” (Matthew 10:24 NIV). However, as Jesus said, “every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old” (Matthew 13:52 NIV). We can apply this to mean that we can, and should, teach what is relevant today, what reaches people’s hearts today, including young people. We can, and should, do this while we “proclaim. to [them] the whole will of God” (Acts 20:27 NIV), without compromise. Study Bibles can be very useful in this regard. For example, the NIV Study Bible is very useful, and so is The Life Application Study Bible apparatus. There are also many others. “The grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people” (Titus 2:11 NIV), including young people. “Then young women will dance and be glad, young men and old as well. I will turn their mourning into gladness; I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow” (Jeremiah 31:13 NIV). What a celebration God promises in the future! This pictures God’s final redemption that he has in store for all who believe in him, including young people!
We are very proud of being Christians. We are very proud of being Jesus Christ’s disciples. We are so proud of being God’s sons and daughters. Of course, we have right to perform such feelings. It’s just because of our being Christians.
We are very proud of who God is. He is the TRUTH.
We are also very proud of how God’s word is. God’s word is eternally right!
We are also very proud of the authenticity of the bible.
We are also very proud of the special character of the bible which is never eternally out-of-date.
It’s just because of our being Christians.
Are we very proud of being Christians? Oh yes! Yes, we are. Why? Because we are happy men and women among miserable people in the world. We are God’s children because of His choice. So, we have to live and do everything as good as His intending. Should we just stay in our posts motionlessly, not study and seek the wonderful truth hidden deeply in God’s word anymore but only cheer God as wildly as we can? I do not think that those things will please God, our Father.
God, our Father is a real God. We should not regard God as an imaginary god who teaches vague things that does not concern anybody or anything in the world in this 21st century. Why? Because our God is a real God. And God’s word is living word. Who can believe those things? It is us, Christians who believe those things with all our hearts! But how about the others? It is difficult for them to believe those things, I guess. But God wants them to understand all of those things so that they can receive the salvation from God. Who can help them? We, Christians, can do that, Can’t we?
Yes, we are willing to do that because we are Christians!
We just only believe by depending on the bible passively and do nothings, don’t we? Of course, not. God always wants us to be His excellent disciples, not average ones.
In John 16:12, “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.” (NIV) What can we understand what Jesus told His disciples? This sentence of Jesus’ is so important to pay attention and study carefully. Right? Let’s have a look at the sentence and seek the important meaning of Jessus’ word.
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.” The first half of the sentence says that after three years and a half teaching the disciples, Jesus had much more to say (teach) to the disciples. So, what He taught the disciples for three and a half years was not complete. It was a basic and intermediate course for the disciples. And the second half tells us that the advanced course for the disciples was unable to start because their degree of spirit was too low to understand what the Lord Jesus would teach them. That is Jesus’ word specially offering His disciples. According to the Lord Jesus’ word, we can feel that Christianity still has a lot of deep spiritual meanings.
But what are the deep spiritual meanings of God’s word?
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.” is a statement that Jesus told His disciples. But on the other hand, it is a question specially offering His disciples at that time as well as His disciples after that until forever. That is the great question that Christians should study carefully so that they can find the answer someday.
Lord’s word is absolutely an order. But His disciples did not pay attention and implement what their Lord said. So, followers after followers just read it and paid no attention to the Lord Jesus’ word, too, and then forgot it until now.
In James 2:17, we are taught like this: “In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” (NIV)
Should we obey and implement all Jesus’ orders so that we can glorify God’s Name?
Truth Seeker
WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
God is Mighty, why doesn’t He mold people to be good; it took the Old Testament period more than a thousand years; then had to bring Jesus, God-the Son, down to earth, and then be put to death by the Jews (God’s chosen people). So, what does the Old Testament mean specifically for God and for mankind?
In brief, here are some scriptures that point out what the Old Testament means for God and mankind. “For everything that was written in the past [the Old Testament] was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encourage they provide we might have hope” (Romans 15:4 NIV). “The righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify” (Romans 4:21 NIV). Jesus is “the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through him” (Acts 10:43 NIV). The Old Testament highlighted the problem of sin, and need of a solution, and predicted that God would provide that solution through the Messiah, who proved to Jesus Christ. “In the past God overlooked such ignorance” (Acts 17:30 NIV). “In his forbearance [God] had left the sins unpunished committed beforehand unpunished–he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus” (Romans 3:25,26 NIV).
HAVE THE YOUTH OF THIS 21st CENTURY BEEN REDUCING THEIR BELIEF IN GOD AND CHRISTIAN FAITH? SHOULD THIS PROBLEM BE WELL CARED FOR SERIOUSLY?
It is now alarming in many parts of the world that today’s youth take spiritual matters less seriously. They are indifferent to religion. They seem to lack respect for God and His teachings. There may be some who criticize that today’s youth are heartless. They are indifferent to everyone around them, and do not need to know anything about spirituality. They only need to know modern science and technology. They like a selfish lifestyle and worldly enjoyment. So it seems that today’s youth are perverted criminals. Were they not as kind as their ancestors were? Because they reject salvation, reject the holy, holy doctrine that comes from God, and they become perverted, hardened people? Is it reasonable for a young man to be judged like that? It seems to be a very important issue that needs to be studied very carefully, Isn’t it? In fact, they seem to have been unfairly accused by the aforementioned accusations. The Bible deals with things that take place for decades. Things happened in an unfamiliar country long ago, and seemed to have nothing to do with the present world. There is nothing to do with this youth in the 21st century. They do not feel the Bible is helpful for their work or in their present lives. Are those psychological points that need a clear analysis and find a remedy?
Truth seeker
Let’s read Acts, paragraph 1, verse 8: “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” NIV
It is an honor to be entrusted by God with the task of being a witness for God everywhere, to the ends of the earth. But to do well in the work God has entrusted us with, it is important that we first understand God and His teachings thoroughly and thoroughly. It is an important thing that we must not take lightly, and do it in a perfunctory way. Things about the Lord and the teachings of our Lord must be thoroughly studied, and thoroughly understood. So that when we testify, we can give detailed, specific and clear explanations for those who do not know God to grasp the Way of God, which is transparent, specific and scientific, not a superstitious, ambiguous religion.
Let us follow the example of Jesus. Let us temporarily forget all about our little knowledge of God, as well as of God’s teachings in the Bible. Humble ourselves as low as we can, asking the Holy Spirit to inspire us into all truth so that we may discover the marvellous truth of Lord’s word. Do not let letters and words hinder the teaching of the Holy Spirit.
Meditate on John 16:12-13a, “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth.” NIV
Now we will not let our precious time go to waste anymore, but we will start from the first problem (01):
01. WHY SHOULD THE BIBLE HAVE TWO PARTS FOR TWO STAGES OF THE OLD AND THE NEW TESTAMENT?
WHY CAN’T GOD THE ALMIGHTY GIVE HUMANITY THE SALVATION ONLY ONE TIME COMPLETELY? WHY DID GOD WASTE OVER A THOUSAND OF YEARS FOR THE OLD TESTAMENT TIMES WITHOUT ANY RESULTS? THEN HAD TO IMPLEMENT THE SECOND PLAN OF SALVATION BY SENDING JESUS, THE ONE AND ONLY SON, DOWN TO THE WORLD IN ORDER TO PREACH THE GOSPEL OF SALVATION. BUT THAT WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL AGAIN, AND JESUS WAS KILLED BY THE JEWS, CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD AT LAST. SO WHY CAN HE BE CALLED AS THE ALMIGHTY?
That may be the question of the Gentiles, how will we explain it to them specifically?
If your question is, “Why is Jesus called ‘the Almighty’, the Biblical answer is that Jesus is never called “Almighty” in the Bible. One example which shows that Jesus is not called “Almighty” is in Revelation 21:22,23, which says, “the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple . . . “the glory of God gives it light and the Lamb is its lamp” (NIV). “The Lamb” is Jesus, of course (John 1:29; Revelation 5:12), and these verses in Revelation clearly indicate that Jesus is neither the “Almighty”, nor “God”.
Sorry to make you misunderstanding. My question is:
WHY CAN’T GOD THE ALMIGHTY GIVE HUMANITY THE SALVATION ONLY ONE TIME COMPLETELY? Why god wasted over a thousand of years for the old testament times without any results? then had to implement the second plan of sending jesus, the one and only son, down to the world in order to preach the gospel of salvation. That was not successful again, but Jesus was killed by the Jews, chosen people of god at last. SO WHY CAN HE BE CALLED AS THE ALMIGHTY?
The word “He” in the last sentence is used to replace the word “God” in the first sentence.
I am very sorry to make you misunderstand because they were so far to each other.
Almighty God has NOT “wasted” any time in implanting his plan “without any results”, as you suggest. Right from the beginning of the rebellion against him, God announced what he was going to do. Speaking to Satan the Devil, the one who made the snake appear to talk, God said, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush you in the head, and you will strike his heel” (Genesis 3:15 NIV). God’s Son, Jesus Christ, was here foretold to solve the problem of rebellion, and all of its horrific results. God’s plan proceeded exactly according to his purpose. “When the time set had fully come, god sent his Son” (Galatians 4:4 NIV). “He made known to us the mystery of his will according his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment–to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ” (Ephesians 1:9,10 NIV). The brilliant success of Christ’s mission to earth is thus summarized, “God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having cancelled the charge of our indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross” (Colossians 2:13-15 NIV).
As we know, the bible consists of two parts: The Old Testament and The New Testament. The bible of Christianity has sixty-six books. The Old Testament has thirty-nine books and the New Testament has twenty-seven books.
There are a large number of people in the world just use the Old Testament bible. But there are also another large number of people in the world just want to us the New Testament bible.
The bible is the basic but so important element in Christianity. So, before presenting the bible to the gentiles, we have to master special characteristics of the bible. We should know:
The bible is the most authentic book in the world.
The bible contains living words of God.
But the important things that we have to study carefully and be able to give clear, correct answers to the following questions:
1) WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT BIBLE? IS IT NECESSARY FOR CHRISTIANS TO STUDY SO THAT THEY CAN RECEIVE THE SALVATION? DOES THE OLD HISTORY OF ISRAEL CONCERN THE YOUTH IN THIS CENTURY?
2) WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE NEW TESTAMENT BIBLE? THE MAIN LESSON IN THE NEW TESTAMENT BIBLE IS “JESUS CHRIST”! WHAT IS THE LESSON LIKE? WHAT IS THE SPECIAL MEANING OF JESUS – GOD THE SON?
Those may be the questions of the Gentiles. How will we explain them to the gentiles specifically?
Answers: (1) One of the main purposes of the Old Testament, tom point to Christ, is made known in Acts 13:43, “All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name” (NIV).
Do you think it is a very important question that need a lot of time to think over it? For me, I think it so important that we have to do our best to study it more carefully. We have to read it as many time as we can until the Holy Spirit make us understand the truth intuitionally.
The Old Testament bible is not a book of hitory which make new believers feel confused and unpleasant. It is a book of God and His teachings.
The Old Testament bible presents who God is? What He is like? and His actions among the mankind.
So, let’s offer God our time to study The Old Testament bible again but this time we will study it more carefully than we used to do it before. We don’ t know how long will it take but we will make every effort to seek God’s will.
After that, let’s study some important items of The Old Testament bible carefully, one by one and present each of the following ones:
1) WHO GOD IS?
2) WHAT IS HE LIKE?
3) WHAT ARE HIS ACTIONS AMONG THE MANKIND?
The questions above are so important for people to understand God and His actions. So we should not be in a hurry and give hasty responses to the questions without studying them carefully.
Please God be with us and lead us to the perfect truth of the great lesson of the OldTestament. Will God teach us how to prove His word (Christianity) in a scientific fashion. Please teach us how to demean ourselves so that we will be able to receive the truth from the Holy Spirit. Thank You, God!
Yes, it is true that the Old Testament does present God as he truthfully is! For example, it says, “He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he” (Deuteronomy 32:4 NIV). “The LORD [Yahweh], the LORD [Yahweh], the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished” (Exodus 34:6,7 NIV). “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. and what does the LORD [Yahweh] require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8 NIV).
Answers: (2) The New Testament lesson is: “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16 NIV). “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them” (John 3:36 NIV). “These have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (John 20:31 NIV). The New Testament teaches us to live by “faith in the Son of God” (Galatians 2:20 NIV). “Faith” is belief in action. Jesus is never called “God the son” in the Bible. Such a teaching is actually false doctrine. Jesus is called “the Son of God” and “God’s Son”many times. For example, Jesus said, “I am God’s Son” (John 10:36 NIV).
Thank God! Thank you for your answering my question. I agree with all things in your response. But please do not stop here because those are just around the departure. So, let’s go ahead! We should ask the Holy Spirit to lead us to the destination. A-MEN! The Holy Spirit wants us to start from the beginning. And we should study the following verses very carefully, one by one. We should spend a lot of time to think over every verse so that we can understand the deep meaning hidden in God’s word. We should not conclude God’s word before the Holy Spirit give us perfect explanation. Now, let’s go!
IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. HE WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING.
(JOHN 1:1-2 NIV). WHAT DOES IT MEAN? WHAT WILL WE FIND IF WE THINK OVER IT?
THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND MADE HIS DWELLING AMONG US. WE HAVE SEEN HIS GLORY, THE GLORY OF THE ONE AND ONLY SON, WHO CAME FROM THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH. (JOHN 1:14 NIV). WHAT DOES IT MEAN? WHAT WILL WE FIND IF WE THINK OVER IT?
AND JESUS GREW IN WISDOM AND STATURE, AND IN FAVOR WITH GOD AND MAN. (LUKE 2:52 NIV). WHAT DOES IT MEAN? WHAT WILL WE FIND IF WE THINK OVER IT?
MARK 14: 32-40 (Gethsemane)
32They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.”
33He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34“My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death, ”he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.”
35Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36“Abba, Father, ”he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
37Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon, ”he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Couldn’t you keep watch for one hour?38Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
39Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN? WHAT WILL WE FIND IF WE THINK OVER IT?
There is no hurry. Please ask the Holy Spirit to be with you, then read each verse and think over it carefully as many times as you can until you receive the perfect explanation from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will lead us to the perfect truth of God’s word, won’t He? So, the best way to understand God’s word is to put our knowledge of the bible by. Let the Holy Spirit lead us to all the truth. Thank to the Holy Spirit, we will understand the great lesson about Jesus as an invaluable gift for the mankind.
This problem (The lesson of the New Testament) is the most important for Christianity as well as for someone who has been seeking for the truth almost all his/her life. So, will you please lay by part of your valuable time for examining the great lesson of the New Testament more carefully. The Holy Spirit will give us a perfect answer beyond our limited knowledge. That will be a valuable award from God offering faithful disciples, isn’t that?
Please God be with us and lead us to the perfect truth of the great lesson of the New Testament. Will God teach us how to prove His word (Christianity) in a scientific fashion. Please teach us how to demean ourselves so that we will be able to receive the truth from the Holy Spirit. Thank You, God!
Explanations of the scriptures you quoted: John 1:1,2—Jesus, “the Word”, “was with God in the beginning”. Since Almighty “God” Yahweh is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalm 90:2 NIV), and had no beginning, what beginning is John 1:1,2 referring to? It must be Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. Jesus “was with God” in this beginning of the creation of the universe and all that is in it. In fact, Almighty God spoke to Jesus in Genesis 1:26, when he said, “Let us make mankind in our image” (NIV). Jesus, the Word, obviously existed prior to “the beginning” referred to in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1,2. Jesus, apparently speaking as wisdom personified in Proverbs 8:22 says “Yahweh created me, the first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works” (NJB). Almighty God created Jesus first, before anything else, “the firstborn of every creature”, “the Beginning of the creation of God” (Colossians 1:15 KJV; Revelation 3:14 NASB). While Jesus is called “God” in John 1:1, he is not Almighty God. Why not? Because “no one has seen God at any time”, that is, the Almighty God. However, lots and lots of people saw “the Word” who “became flesh”, Jesus (John 1:14). Jesus is “the only begotten God Who is in the bosom of the Father” (John 1:18 NASB). “Only begotten” also means that Jesus was created by his “Father”.
Luke 2:52 means that Jesus is not Almighty God, because it says that “Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” (NIV). Growing in wisdom and favor with God makes it obvious that Jesus could not be God. God is a different person, one that Jesus grew in wisdom and favor with. When Jesus said, “‘Abba, Father . . . everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will'” (Mark 14:36 NIV). Jesus here admits that “with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26 NIV), but not with himself, so he cannot be God. Jesus also shows that, even though his “will” is different from his Father’s “will”, he submits to his Father’s “will”. This not only gives evidence that Jesus is not Almighty God, he is not even equal to his Father. Jesus admitted, “my Father . . . is greater than all”, and “the Father is greater than I” (John 10:29; 14:28 NIV).
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching” (2 Timothy 3:16 NIV). “Prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21 NIV). Almighty God inspired the writing of his word, the holy Bible, by means of his holy spirit. Just as “no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things” (2 Peter 1:20 NIV), we must “hold firmly to the word of life” “that [our] love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that [we] may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ” (Philippians 2:15; 1:9,10 NIV). God’s holy spirit will never contradict the written word of God. We need to be very careful to “trust in the LORD [Yahweh] with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding” (Proverbs 3:6 NIV), so that we do not let go and just assume that the holy spirit is guiding our understanding. We should follow the example of “the Berean Jews” who “received the message with great eagerness and EXAMINED THE SCRIPTURES every day to see if what Paul said is true” (Acts 17:11 NIV).
I appreciated your article “The Septuagint Use in the New Testament”. However, I wish you had provided references as examples for all the points you made. I would like to examine these instances more closely because I believe the could shed light on the translation controversies over modern translations vs the KJV.
Thank you for your inquiry. To get more documentation, etc., about the Septuagint, you may want to purchase “A New Translation of the Septuagint” (NETS), published in 2007, which has a very interesting preface and explanation of the Septuagint and its history called “To the Reader of NETS.” Also, Wikipedia has an interesting and informative article about the Septuagint, with many sources listed.
1) Is Jesus the actual “son” of God, or is the term “son of God” used metaphorically as a title? How would we know?
2) Can Christians pray to Jesus? Is Jesus an intercessor? Did early Christians use Jesus to intercede to God?
Thank you for visiting this site, and for you questions. Yes, Jesus is the actual Son of God, not physically, but in the sense that his Father created him. The way that we know these things is from what the Bible says. Jesus said that God’s “word is truth”. (John 17:17). “God is not a human” (Numbers 23:19 NIV). Rather, “God is spirit” (John 4:24 NIV). Jesus is referred to as “the firstborn of all creation” (Colossians 1:15 KJV). His Father “Yahweh” is said by Jesus, speaking as wisdom personified, to have “created” him “first”, “before the oldest of his works” (Proverbs 8:22 NJB). The Bible says that Jesus’ “origins are from of old, from ancient times” (Micah 5:2 NIV). After Jesus had lived with his Father in heaven for unknown eons of time, “when the time set had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman”, named “Mary”, who was told by God’s “angel”, “you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High” (Galatians 4:4 NIV; Luke 1:30-32 NIV).
Regarding prayer, Jesus said, “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven” (Matthew 6:9 NIV). Prayers should be directed to God the Father, not to Jesus. Jesus prayed to his Father. For example, “I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth” (Matthew 11:25). “Father, glorify your name” (John 11:25 NIV). Early Christians did this.The apostle Paul said, “I kneel before there Father” (Ephesians 3:14 NIV). Jesus is our one and only intercessor with his Father, Almighty God. “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”. “I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father will be glorified in the Son” (John 14:6,13 NIV). This is what early Christians did. “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow . . . and every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:10,11 NIV). The acceptable way to pray is to pray to the Father in Jesus’ name. Early Christians used Jesus to intercede with God. “I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father–Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:1,2 NIV).
What does it mean to be the actual son of God, but not physically? Are not those mentioned in the Old Testament also actual + non-physical sons of God?
Does Jesus being the actual son of God imply he has divine attributes (i.e. he is not just a regular man), and, if so, did the apostles or earliest Christians attest to this?
How do you interpret and justify the various signs of worship followers or strangers bestow upon Jesus in the Gospel according to Matthew for example?
What is the meaning of the usage of the term “Lord” with reference to Jesus?
What does it mean to “pray in Jesus’ name”? Is this not idolatry? (According to Jews, I believe it is idolatry.)
Note: Idolatry may be the wrong term, but this is what I am trying to refer to:
There is evidence of a Jewish belief in intercession, both in the form of the paternal blessings passed down from Abraham to his children, and 2 Maccabees, where Judas Maccabaeus sees the dead Onias and Jeremiah giving blessing to the Jewish army. In ancient Judaism, it was also popular to pray for intercession from Michael in spite of the rabbinical prohibition against appealing to angels as intermediaries between God and his people. There were two prayers written beseeching him as the prince of mercy to intercede in favor of Israel: one composed by Eliezer ha-Kalir, and the other by Judah ben Samuel he-Hasid.[33] Those who oppose this practice feel that to God alone may prayers be offered.[citation needed]
In modern times, one of the greatest divisions in Jewish theology (hashkafa) is over the issue of whether one can beseech the help of a tzadik – an extremely righteous individual. The main conflict is over a practice of beseeching a tzadik who has already died to make intercession before the Almighty.[34] This practice is common mainly among Chasidic Jews, but also found in varying degrees among other usually Chareidi communities. It strongest opposition is found largely among sectors of Modern Orthodox Judaism, Dor Daim and Talmide haRambam, and among aspects of the Litvish Chareidi community. Those who oppose this practice usually do so over the problem of idolatry, as Jewish Law strictly prohibits making use of a mediator (melitz) or agent (sarsur) between oneself and the Almighty.[citation needed]
The perspectives of those Jewish groups opposed to the use of intercessors is usually softer in regard to beseeching the Almighty alone merely in the “merit” (tzechut) of a tzadik.
Those Jews who support the use of intercessors claim that their beseeching of the tzadik is not prayer or worship, or alternatively that they are still praying to God and through God, but secondarily communicating with the tzadik. The conflict between the groups is essentially over what constitutes prayer, worship, a mediator (melitz), and an agent (sarsur).
Any writings outside the 66 book Bible canon (Genesis to Revelation) are not “inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16), and therefore not authoritative. “There is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself asa ransom for all people” (1 Timothy 2:5,6 NIV).
Here are some differences in Jesus being “the Son of God” (Mark 1:1), and other “sons of God” (Job 38:4) referred to in the Bible. Jesus is “the Messiah”, “and that by believing you may have life in his name” (Mark 1:1; John 20:31 NIV). “He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made” (John 1:2,3 NIV). “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood” (Romans 3:25 NIV). These factors are not true regarding the other “sons of God”, making Jesus the unique, special “Son of God. “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16 NKJV). “God has sent His only begotten Son into the world that we might live through Him” (1 John 4:9 NKJV). Being “the only begotten” means that Jesus was the only direct creation of God. Everything else was created through Jesus. Jesus is the only one to die for our sins. These are some factors that make him unique. God uniquely said regarding Jesus, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!” (Matthew 17:5 NIV). Since we’re told by God to listen to Jesus, and Jesus said we should pray to God in his name (John 14:6,13), praying to God in Jesus’ name is not idolatry.
The apostle Matthew records, “the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law” (Mathew 7:28,29 NIV). The apostle John records, “No one ever spoke the way this man does” (John 7:46 NIV). Jesus is also unique in that, “as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of God” (John 5:26,27 NIV). So, yes, Jesus has divine attributes. He was not ‘just a man’.
Regarding worship, Jesus said, “the true worshippers will worship the Father” (John 4:23), not Jesus. References to worshipping Jesus are a mistranslation, in some translations, of the Greek word “proskyneo”, which basically means “to bow down to”, “do homage to”. Properly translated those verses in Matthew read as follows. “They knelt down and paid him homage” (Matthew 2:11 NRSV). Those who were in the boat did him homage, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God'” (Matthew 14:33 NAB). “They approached, embraced his feet, and did him homage” (Matthew 28:9 NAB). “When they saw him, they fell down before his feet, though some hesitated” (Matthew 28:17 NJB).
“Lord” means “master”, and there are “many lords” in the world, but for Christians, in a special sense, “there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 8:5,6 NIV), who is uniquely our master.
Thanks.
I’m sure you can see your reasoning is a bit circular. “This is what we do because it says it’s what we do.” If Jews are to be convinced and saved, they would need evidence that they can in fact pray through a divine being/man to God, which would be unconvincing to them based on the OT.
Aside from that, what about the evidence that some of these books of the NT may not be written by apostles? Namely, Hebrews and Revelation stand out as one where the author isn’t known. The claim is that there is an apostolic connection there to Peter and John, but the evidence disagrees. You’re now going to accept it because a decision was made by a man centuries ago? This is precisely the sort of dogmatic-unquestioning thinking I believe you claim to be against when it comes to organized churches, and yet you are participating in it yourself. Just some food for thought.
Why would Jesus be the creator of everything and how does that fix anything? If anything, this makes things more confusing, because there is no mention of Jesus “as a creator” in the OT? It simply says, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Saying things were “created through him / in him” does not simplify this.
Thank you.
just to give a more concrete example
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. (NWT)
This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser,
Who formed you since you were in the womb:
“I am Jehovah, who made everything.
I stretched out the heavens by myself,
And I spread out the earth.
Who was with me? (NWT Isaiah 44:24)
He spreads out the heavens by himself,
And he treads upon the high waves of the sea. (NWT Job 9:8)
“You alone are Jehovah; you made the heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens and all their army, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. And you preserve all of them alive, and the army of the heavens are bowing down to you. (NWT Neh 9:6)
I know you are not JW, but I provided NWT in case anyone would complain about translation.
How is this not a contradiction? Nowhere in the OT does it say anything was created *through* anyone else, i.e. Jesus, let alone that Jesus created things. It simply says God ALONE created creation and sustained creation. I suspect you may answer by saying “we start at the NT first and work backwards”, but this does not change the fact that the entire book needs to be consistent. The OT cannot contradict the NT. I also suspect you will also say “through” does not mean Jesus created. This appears to be twisting of words, exactly what you accuse other Christians of doing.
Thank you.
The NT completes the written revelation of God that was begun in the OT. For example, the fulfillments of the OT prophecies of the Messiah, the Suffering Servant, the Prophet, etc., were recorded in the NT (Deuteronomy 18:15-18; Isaiah 11; 35; 42; 49; 53).
Luke wrote Luke and Acts, but he was not an apostle. Hebrews was written by Paul. It has Paul’s signature conclusion, which is the same phrase that all his other 13 letters have. “Grace be with you all” (Hebrews 13:25 NIV). The apostle John states that he was the writer of Revelation (Revelation 1:9). The early church viewed him as its writer.
The Holy Spirit inspired the writing of both the OT and NT, and the Holy Spirit confirmed to the church that the 27 books of the NT were authoritative (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20,21). These 27 books were all written in the 1st century CE, and viewed by the Church as authoritative before the end of the 1st century. The later Councils that identified which books were part of the NT were simply recognizing what had been evident since the end of the 1st century.
The NT recognizes “the Lord God Almighty” as the one who “created all things” (Revelation 4:8,11). Jesus is never identified as being the creator in the NT. Rather, “through the Son he [“God”] created the universe” (Hebrews 1:1,2 NLT). “Through him [“the Son”] God created the universe” (Colossians 1:15,16 NLT).
>It has Paul’s signature conclusion, which is the same phrase that all his other 13 letters have.
This doesn’t imply someone else couldn’t have written it, as some scholars think.
>It has Paul’s signature conclusion, which is the same phrase that all his other 13 letters have.
Circular reasoning. I could write a book under a different person’s name. It would not imply it were true. There is no way to verify.
>The early church viewed him as its writer.
And? Does this mean that they were right? This does not follow.
> These 27 books were all written in the 1st century CE,
This is disputed by some, namely, Bart Ehrman and Stephen Harris.
>viewed by the Church as authoritative before the end of the 1st century.
Who constitutes “the Church” here? Which Church? Where is the evidence for this claim?
>2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20-21
These passages say nothing about 27 books. It simply says all scripture is inspired. This by itself doesn’t make sense, since some scripture is clearly not believed to be inspired by Christians, so I’m not sure why you quoted this. Additionally, this is still a decision on the part of man to decide that these books were indeed inspired. Also, there is dispute over whether they were written before the 1st century by some. There isn’t even evidence of the complete list until hundreds of years later.
>Jesus is never identified as being the creator in the NT. Rather, “through the Son he [“God”] created the universe”
He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. (John 1:10, NLT)
It says there Jesus came into the world “he created”. Note, it does not say Jesus came into the world he created via God’s help, nor does it say he came into the world which was created through him via God. The term “through Jesus” also has not been defined and is quite vague, leaving open room for interpretation. Additionally, the OT makes it clear on several occasions that God was alone in creation.
Looks translating John 1:10 may vary by site but the one I provided was one of them
However the overall point remains for that which is
Through Jesus and to Create through Jesus is vague and not well defined
The Old Testament speaks and emphasizes that god was alone in creation. Alone means alone as I suspect you will change the meaning of alone to mean alone in power. If Jesus was with god then why would god emphasize he was alone. If Jesus were there why the emphasis that god was doing things by himself and not through Jesus
Isaiah 44:6-23 contrasts false idol gods with “the LORD [Yahweh] Almighty” (Isaiah 44:6 NIV). In Isaiah 44:24 he says, “I am the LORD [Yahweh], the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself” (NIV). False gods were not viewed by their believers and worshippers as being Almighty, or as creating alone. Rather, pagans believed in multiple gods, who cooperated and competed in making things, none of which were from nothing, in contrast to Yahweh, who is alone the Creator, creating the universe. In stark contrast to pagan gods, “by faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what is visible” (Hebrews 11:3 NIV).
Jesus, as wisdom personified, says, “Then I was beside Him, as a master workman” (Proverbs 8:30 NASB). Jesus worked under his Father’s direction, Thus, the “Son” is the one “through whom also he {“God”] made the universe” (Hebrews 1:1,2 NIV). But this doesn’t make make Jesus a co-creator, or equal to his Father.
Yes, indeed, “the Lord God Almighty . . . created all things” (Revelation 4:8,11 NIV). He is the one and only Creator. But he created everything through his “master workman” (Proverbs 8:30 NASB), “through whom all things were made” (John 1:2 NIV). Jesus said “the Son can do nothing by himself; he can only do what he sees his Father doing; because whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19 NIV).
The NLT rendering of John 1:10 is not accurate, but reflects Trinitarian bias. Accurately rendered, it reads: “He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him” (John 1:10 NIV).
Please read carefully the “New Testament Canon” articles on this site under “Categories”. Evidence is provided proving the very early existence of the NT Canon.
>Please read carefully the “New Testament Canon” articles on this site under “Categories”. Evidence is provided proving the very early existence of the NT Canon.
Your articles do not stand as proof. This would not pass logic and argumentation 101. You start with the premises that the Bible we have today must be the inerrant inspired word of God and work backwards from there using the Bible itself to prove the conclusion you already set out with. This is flat-out intellectually dishonest. Again, you did not at all address the points about the human choice aspect, i.e. that it was a choice on the part of men, thousands of years ago, to include and not include books. We have no way of knowing that they made mistakes. Furthermore, the evidence we do have suggests that these absolutely could have been mistakes because of false claims to authorship, forgeries, etc. Additionally, the books having been written in the first century have no bearing on whether or not they are indeed true or divinely inspired. You are jumping around and deflecting points by cobbling together quotes from scripture.
> in contrast to Yahweh, who is alone the Creator, creating the universe
Here we go. First, you say Yahweh is alone. Then, you say “Actually, but wait he wasn’t! Jesus was there! But that doesn’t count as God not being alone!”. This is dishonest. The OT says clearly God was alone.
>Proverbs 8
So, when other groups of Christians twist verses out of context to fit their conclusions, it is a no-no, but you’re allowed to? The wisdom referred to here is in the feminine form. The book itself is highly metaphorical. You argue yourself in other instances that a certain passage is being metaphorical (e.g. Jesus didn’t LITERALLY mean his flesh and blood in the covenant) and yet here you are literally interpreting Wisdom (again, in the feminine form) and equating it with Jesus. How convenient.
As it stands, Proverbs 8 does not stand as conclusive evidence. There are too many other instances of God stating he was alone. Alone means alone. Again, you don’t get to change the meaning of alone to fit your conclusion.
Finally, through still has not been defined. It is not even clear what this means. Jesus was a worker? So, he created things or he didn’t? Why was God repeatedly saying he was alone then if Jesus was there with God?
>The NLT rendering of John 1:10 is not accurate, but reflects Trinitarian bias.
Says who? You? I cannot be certain but I have read enough of your stuff to conclude that you do not have a command of the original languages of the Bible. Who’s to say your translation does not reflect a unitarian bias?
My point was not to argue one way or another, but simply to show you, you are doing exactly the things which you accuse the “other side” of doing. You mish-mash verses, twist things out of context, and start from a conclusion rather than deriving it. This is flat out wrong.
No need to reply, I believe I have heard and seen enough to conclude you are not arguing in good faith, or you are simply deluded beyond saving or recognition. Best of luck.
you need to see Sam Shamoun’s work or others like him. he may clear up misconceptions about the trinity for you. i understand your beliefs are essentially Jehovah Witness without the added watchtower stuff
here is his site: https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com
keep an open heart and mind. peace and blessings.
**i am not interested in a conversation, i’ve read your blog, i simply implore you to do further research**
Thank you for your interest, and visiting this site. Beliefs expressed here are based entirely on the 66 books of God’s Word, the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. We always keep an “open mind” regarding all truths based on this source.
True beliefs are held by religions which also have false beliefs. For example, we believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and died for the sins of humankind. Catholics also believe this. This fact doesn’t make us Catholics. Similarly, Jehovah’s Witnesses have similar beliefs to ours about Almighty God and the Trinity doctrine, but that doesn’t make us Jehovah’s Witnesses. As you can see on this site, Jehovah’s Witnesses, have been false prophets regarding predicting dates for the end of the world. “If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed” (Deuteronomy 18:22 NIV).
Regarding the Trinity doctrine, we have extensively researched this issue for decades. Our position here is the same as 1 Corinthians 4:6, “You should learn from us not to go beyond what is written in Scripture” (GWT). But the Trinity doctrine does exactly what the scripture says not to do, ‘going beyond what is written in scripture.’ Even worse, the doctrine contradicts the scriptures. “The Scripture cannot be disregarded” (ISV). The Trinity doctrine is composed of “man-made ideas” which “cancel the word of God” (Mark 7:7,13 NLT).
Christians are commanded “not to teach false doctrines” (1 Timothy 1:3 NIV). As you can see, this site has a number of articles which document and detail exactly why the Trinity doctrine is an unscriptural, “false doctrine”, and should be rejected!
I simply implore you to investigate the issue further, because there are some major claims made by figures like Shamoun which JW have not been able to answer. I only brought up JW because I understand you don’t subscribe to the trinity as they do not also. So, the arguments you make are akin to the arguments JW make.
The arguments made by Shamoun are made strictly from Scripture; I will assume you haven’t even perused the site. There are even atheist scholars (who have no dog in the fight) that subscribe to the idea that Jesus was equated with God. So, I simply say, use the site and use the search bar there. Investigate further, considering the Bible in its entirety. I know you would say the same to Trinitarians. That is fine! I simply ask you don’t ignore the message and assume you’ve settled it. I say this kindly: the one who assumes he has nothing to learn is a fool.
You really need to investigate the arguments. The treatment of Jesus in the Gospels and even the Letters would not make sense in a context for monotheistic Jews. From Paul to James (yes, even James!), the treatment or elevation of Jesus to such a position would amount to idolatry. Which is why the Jews are constantly rebuking Jesus for certain statements. The Book of Revelation points to this as well. Jesus is treated only in ways YHWH of the Old Testament would have been treated. No, the original Greek does not help you either. These arguments have been investigated as well. The Bible needs to be consistent in its entire context from Old to New. If you’re clinging to the “exact words fallacy” that the term Trinity is not mentioned, you are ignoring the fact that Jesus often never gave direct answers. Even YHWH of the OT when giving his “name” to Moses answers him indirectly! As a side note, it is odd how you chop up Bible verses to complete your sentences, taking the verses out of context. Anyways, I should go. Hopefully you keep an open mind. If anything, you should be inspired to spread your Gospel if it is indeed true, so that Trinitarians like myself are not damned to hellfire preaching a false Gospel. Peace!
Reading the above comments, as for Proverbs 8 referring to Jesus, this is a common JW argument, but it ignores the fact that other “attributes” of God are also personified. In some sense, yes, Jesus is wise/wisdom, but it ignores the other examples of personification. Another example of cherrypicking. An example would be “Folly” which appears alongside Wisdom.
We’ve looked at the Trinity posts on Shamoun’s site, and we’ve seen these all arguments before. He makes many assertions, citing and quoting scriptures, but never providing any scriptures that actually prove the Trinity doctrine true. Bold assertions don’t cut it!
You also have made a number of assertions in support of the Trinity doctrine, without any scriptural proof.
When Jesus was falsely accused of claiming to “be God” (John 10:33 NIV), he refuted it by making plain that, “I said, ‘I am God’s Son'” (John 10:36 NIV), not God. In Revelation, he says, “I was dead”, is presented as “the Lamb”, who “had been slain” (Revelation 1:18; 5:6 NIV). “The Lamb” is shown to be someone other than “God Almighty” (Revelation 21:22). However, “God . . . will never die” (Habakkuk 1:12 NIV). Thus, the Bible proves that Jesus is not Almighty God, Yahweh, who “will never die”.
The God of the Jews, “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus” (Acts 3:13 NIV). The Bible not only proves that Jesus is not God Almighty Yahweh, but he is not even equal to him, in contradiction to the Trinity doctrine.
Please thoroughly study the first article on this site featuring the gospel of John, and the issue, “Is Jesus Christ God Almighty, or Part of a Trinity?”.
… John 10:39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
haha clearly they didn’t think his answer was convincing, and still thought he was blaspheming… this is why you are an out of context guy
To be honest, I don’t have the time to keep going back and forth, but your arguments are not very convincing and can be explained away.
I think the best thing you can do is try to message Sam directly, either on Skype via benny_malik3, streamyard when he’s online YouTube, or the contact form on his site. Again, you kind of ignored the fact that if you really believe we are corrupting the Gospels, you have a duty and obligation to correct and spread that word. No better way than getting on a call with Sam. Just hiding on your website isn’t enough because your site simply doesn’t receive enough traffic. Going back and forth over a comments section simply won’t cut it out. Peace.
So Jesus’ rejection of his enemies’ false accusation means nothing to you? Jesus’ bold admission that, “I said, ‘I am the Son of God'” (John 10:36 NIV), means nothing to you? You agree with Jesus’ enemies false accusation that he, “a mere man, claim to be God”? (John 10:33 NIV). Even this doesn’t agree with the Trinity doctrine, because it says Jesus is only “a mere man”. In contrast, the Trinity doctrine says that Jesus was a “God-man” on earth. This is just another example of the fact that the Bible nowhere gives any support whatsoever to the Trinity.
“They didn’t think his answer was convincing”, you assert. The issue his enemies raised was not, “Are you God?”, but rather, “If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly”. What did Jesus say in response? “I did tell you, but you do not believe . . . you do not believe because you are none of my sheep . . . My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all” (John 10:24-26,29 NIV). Here we have a clear refutation of the Trinity doctrine of supposed equality of the three members of the Trinity. Jesus is saying that his “Father is greater than all”, including Jesus. The Bible, especially John, repeatedly refutes the Trinity doctrine.
John 10:39 says “they tried to seize him”, but nothing about Jesus supposedly blaspheming or claiming he was God. During a previous encounter with his enemies, Jesus said, “You looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God” (John 8:40 NIV), but nothing about him claiming to be God, in fact, admits here that he is not God, by saying he heard the truth form God. In fact, the Bible says that “God is not a man” (Numbers 23:19), but Jesus says he was “a man”.
There is no doubt that the Bible nowhere supports the Trinity, or any other, “false doctrine” (1 Timothy 1:3,4 NIV), so we feel no need to contact your Trinitarian “expert”, “Sam”. But you feel free to reach out to him and and recommend that he visit this site, study the Trinity articles on here, and make comments.
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In contrast, the Trinity doctrine says that Jesus was a “God-man” on earth. This is just another example of the fact that the Bible nowhere gives any support whatsoever to the Trinity.
You do not understand the Trinity. Jesus is still the son of God in the Trinity. This is called straw manning. You do not even fully understand the position you are attacking.
In fact, the Bible says that “God is not a man” (Numbers 23:19), but Jesus says he was “a man”.
The Trinity does not claim God was a man but that he chose to became man. It is almost laughable how little you know about the Trinity.
But you feel free to reach out to him and and recommend that he visit this site, study the Trinity articles on here, and make comments.
Hahaha so you do little to no effort in actually researching the Trinity, and you expect me to drive traffic to this site? No thank you. You can sit in the graveyard that is this site. I will not be doing your job for you. Like I said, we’re commanded to preach the Gospels, no? So, it’s your duty to go out and correct brothers and sisters, especially if one (me) is asking you to do so. Again, if you want to be lazy and sit back on this site, I can do nothing for you. I will NOT be driving traffic to your site for free! Hahahaha that was a good one.
Yes, we know very well that in the Trinity doctrine Jesus is the Son of God, but he’s also God, and equal to God the Father, according to the dogma. Trinitarians, like yourself, ignore the fact that John 10:29 says that “the Father is greater than all”, because Jesus’ words contradict the Trinity.
Trinitarians likewise ignore Hebrews 2:17, “For this reason he had to MADE like them, FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest IN SERVICE TO GOD, and he might make atonement for the people” (NIV). Jesus was ‘made to be fully human in every way’, “in service to God”, and to “make atonement for the people”, three reasons he cannot be God.
We’ve been very familiar with and studied the Trinity doctrine in the light of God’s Word, the Bible, and had many discussions with Trinitarians for decades. We’ve seen the same claims about the dogma that your “expert”, Sam, has on his blog.
The Bible says to “test them all; hold on to what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21 NIV), and “do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1 NIV). Applying these principles to the Trinity reveals that the doctrine is a “false doctrine” (1 Timothy 1:3,4 NIV).
Please study the first article on this site.
1) The NIV (not inspired version) is a terrible modern translation which adds a lot or changes much of the text in an attempt to modernize and make the Bible more readable.
2) Trinitarians don’t ignore that passage from Hebrews. In fact, it fully agrees with the Trinitarian position.
All of this just tells me you’re either being dishonest or extremely lazy. You are currently “straw-manning” the Trinitarian position.
I’m still laughing at the idea that I was supposed to do your job for you to bring people to this site. If you want to be lazy, be my guest, but that’s something you’ll have to answer for before the Lord. Alright, peace.
The original 66 Bible books were all “inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16). However, no copies, or translations, of them are “inspired by God”, not even the King James Version (KJV). You sound like you may be a “KJV Only” believer, who believes somehow that the KJV was “inspired by God” in a manner similar to the original writings of the Bible. It is true that the NIV is not “inspired by God” either, and is not a perfect translation. It has some flaws, but so do all other translations, including the KJV. We generally use the NIV because it is a very good translation overall, but we also use a number of other translations, where they are more accurate than the NIV.
The Hebrew-Aramaic (Old Testament, or OT) Scriptures were very readable to the ancient Jews. When many Jews began to speak Greek, the OT was translated into Greek. This translation became known as the Greek Septuagint Version (LXX). Even though the LXX was not “inspired by God”, most of the quotes of the OT in the New Testament (NT) are from the LXX. The NT was written in Koine’ Greek, the international language of the day, and was very readable to people in the Roman Empire back then. By commanding that the Gospel be preached and taught to “all nations” (Matthew 28:19,20), Jesus was certainly authorizing the use of many translations of the Scriptures.
The Greek text that the KJV NT was based on was composed from only a few Greek manuscripts, none earlier than the 10th century, and it has many errors. By contrast, modern translations, such as the NIV, are translated from a Greek text that has been composed from about 5,800 Greek manuscripts, some which are as early as the 2nd century, so they are much more accurate than the KJV. Also, the KJV uses archaic English, which is difficult for most modern readers to understand, adding a needless obstacle to understanding the Bible. Using modern, understandable English, modern translations such as the NIV, make the Bible more readable and understandable, and at the same time, are more accurate, that is, closer to the original Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek than the KJV.
No, Trinitarians do not agree with Hebrews 2:17. Their dogma contradicts it. By claiming that Jesus was “God-man”, they deny that Jesus was “fully human in every way”. He could not be both God, and “fully human in every way”. He is our “high priest in service to God”. He could not be God and serve God at the same time. Jesus ‘made atonement for our sins’ by dying (1 Corinthians 15:3; Revelation 1:18). Since God cannot die (Habakkuk 1:12), Jesus cannot be God.
—66 books of the Bible.
This is the same list compiled and preserved by people who do not agree with your heretical views. Yet another instance to show your inconsistency. So the people who compiled the lists and books were inspired enough to get the correct list, but not enough to have the correct view of Christianity? Interesting.
—KJV.
No, I’m not obsessed with KJV and do not believe any one translation is perfect, but you’re wrong about the old English confusing things, which shows me you act like you know a lot but still have much to learn. The use of thy, thou, thine, thee, ye, etc. can actually CLEAR up misconceptions to identify when a person or the author is speaking to a group or an individual, since Early Modern English distinguished between the plural ye and the singular thou. So, again, you’re just speaking without even having thought about the subject. Great work you’re doing here…
—No, Trinitarians do not agree with Hebrews 2:17.
Buddy, I don’t know how many times I have to say this, but you need to do your homework. Trinitarians believe Jesus had both a divine and human nature. This is why I said earlier you’re straw-manning and attacking positions you don’t even fully understand. You’re a joke. Please do your homework.
Jesus foretold, “When he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13 NIV). Jesus was predicting “the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people”, (Jude 3 NIV), the New Testament. Just as the Old Testament, “all scripture is [was] inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16 NIV), so the 8 New Testament writers, like Paul, “wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him [them]”, and these writings by the apostles and their close associates were viewed as “the other Scriptures” (2 Peter 3:15 NIV), by the end of the first century. Thus, the 27 books of the New Testament were viewed as “Scripture” (1 Timothy 5:18) 300 years before Trinitartianism, and the lists of New Testament books of the 4th century that you refer to.
Regarding KJV language, how about “shambles” (1 Corinthians 10:25); “pulse” (Daniel 1:12); “sincere” (1 Peter 2:2)? What do these words mean? Have the meanings changed? Does KJV language help or hinder sincere truth seekers? How about “the voice of the turtle” (Song of Solomon 2:12); and “the horns of unicorns” (Deuteronomy 33:17)? Do turtles sing? Have “unicorns” ever existed? If so, does a unicorn have one horn, or two horns? Which translations better reflect the Biblical Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek words?
Jesus said “God is spirit”, “not a man” (John 4:24; Numbers 23:19). By claiming Jesus to be “God-man”, Trinitarians reject this. Trinitarians reject the Biblical truth that Jesus “became flesh”, “has come in the flesh”, “fully human in every way” (John 1:14; 1 John 4:2; Hebrews 2:17 NIV). “Flesh” and “spirit” are not the same (John 3:6), as Trinitarians claim in the case of Jesus. Being any part God, means Jesus could not be “flesh”, according to the Bible.
YOUR NOTION OF SOLA SCRIPTURA DEBUNKED
With regards to 1 Corinthians 4:6, note how you didn’t use the NIV here when you quoted above, but used a different translation which renders it as Scripture instead of what is written.
Every time Paul uses the Greek word translated “written” here, he is referring to the Old Testament. This might save us from the absurdity of not believing anything until it is on paper, but limiting it to the Old Testament would mean that 1 Corinthians 4:6 did not apply to itself since it is not in the Old Testament (neither, in fact, is most of the New Testament!).
Now, while generalizing “what is written” to include both the Old and New Testament writings would avoid the above incoherency, it would be contrary to Paul’s command to “stand fast and hold firm to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours” (2 Thess. 2:15).This verse seems to support anti-sola-scriptura every bit as clearly as 1 Corinthians 4:6 appears (on the surface) to be pro-sola-scriptura. Moreover, this is not the only verse to do so. Paul praises the Corinthians for holding to the traditions just as he had handed them on to them before he wrote 1 Corinthians (i.e., orally – 1 Cor. 11:2) just as he commands the Thessalonians to do concerning the oral teachings he gave them (1 Thess. 2:13 cf. 2 Thess. 3:6). A similar issue arises when we realize that in 1 Cor. 5:9-11 Paul speaks of a prior letter he wrote to the Corinthians that he expected to be taken authoritatively – yet this letter is lost and not part of Scripture.
Moreover, the idea that everything an apostle taught orally was eventually reduced to writing is itself an extra-biblical idea. And what of the apostles who never wrote any Scripture? Jesus commands the apostles to “preach,” not write, and only three apostles wrote. What about Jesus himself who left behind no writing – nor any command to write? Matthew 28:20 says that the apostles were to “observe all I have commanded,” but we are told that not all Jesus did and said is in Scripture (Jn. 20:30 and 21:25)! And what of apostolic teachings that seem to have never been written down? The apostle John said, “I have much to write to you, but I do not wish to write with pen and ink. Instead, I hope to see you soon when we can talk face to face” (3 Jn. 13). Paul said likewise in 1 Thess. 3:10. Paul “proclaimed the entire plan of God” in Ephesus for over at least two years (Acts 20:27), yet his letter to them is only 5 short chapters. What else might he have taught them? In 1 Corinthians itself (11:34) Paul says he has more to teach them but he would do it when he arrived – but we are never told what “these other things” were (and have another lost letter in between 1 and 2 Corinthians that probably contained such material if any of his letters did – 2 Cor. 2:4 cf. 7:8).
Further, the apostles themselves taught from sources outside the Bible. In Acts 17:28, Paul quotes the writings of a pagan poet. In Acts 7:53 Stephen cites an oral tradition that angels gave Moses the Law – one which Paul also taught in Galatians 3:19. Jude 9 and 14-15 both contain material concerning the archangel Michael and Enoch which is taken from extra-biblical sources. In Ephesians 5:14 Paul seems to quote some authoritative source as saying, “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you” – but this is found nowhere else in the Bible. Matthew goes beyond “what is written” in the Old Testament when he lists prophetic evidence of Jesus (2:23). Jesus Himself quotes a pagan playwright when he blinded Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 26:14).
You’re confusing Biblical with non-biblical teachings, and have not debunked “Sola Scriptura”, as you claim.
“Teachings” is a better translation than “traditions” at 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
Jesus embraced the idea of a written canon (Luke 24:44). Jesus taught “It is written” (Matthew 4:4,7,10). The scriptures are authoritative. “Scripture cannot be set aside” (John 10:35 NIV), infallible, inerrant (Matthew 22:29), historically reliable (Matthew 12:40; 24:37,38), and have ultimate supremacy (Matthew 15:3,6). The “scriptures” trump all else. Anything that is true will be in harmony with the “scriptures”, and never contradict the “scriptures”. All teachings should be checked against the “scriptures” (1 Corinthians 4:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:21; 1 John 4:1).
Paul quoted from the writings of pagan philosophers (Acts 17:28; Titus 1:12), but that doesn’t mean these pagans wrote “scripture”. They didn’t. However, the quotes that are in the Bible are part of “scripture”. Jesus did not quote from a pagan poet in Acts 26:14, as you assert.
When Jesus says he has “much more to say to [the disciples], more than you can now bear”, he is referring to the revelation of truth that would flow after “the Spirit of truth, comes [and] “will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:12,13 NIV). He is referring to the New Testament writings that would come during the ensuing years, which are “the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people” (Jude 3 NIV).
When Paul says, “when I come I will give further directions” (1 Corinthians 11:34 NIV), he is talking about oral instruction, but we have “all the truth” we need “to make you wise for salvation through Jesus Christ” (2 Timothy 3:15 NIV), recorded in the Bible. The Bible does not need any supplementation (1 Corinthians 4:6; Galatians 1:8,9; 2 John 9).
Acts 7:53 is not simply an oral tradition, it is the truth (Acts 7:38; Galatians 3:19). Jude 9,14 does not cite any extra-Biblical sources, so it cannot be determined definitively that Jude quoted from anything, or whether God revealed this truth to him.
Ephesians 5:14 does not quote from any extra-biblical source, but apparently is a paraphrased quote, expansion and exposition of Isaiah 60:1-3 where Christ’s light shines all over the world and brings gentiles into the expanding church.
Matthew does not ‘go beyond what is written’ in Matthew 2:23. He was was drawing upon Isaiah 11:1, where the Messiah is called “a Branch”, in saying, ” . . . was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene” (Matthew NIV). Nazareth means “Branch Town”.
You’re just butchering things out of context again to fit your agenda.
Luke 24:44 does not talk about Jesus telling his disciples to write anything down or create a canon, it’s simply talking about the idea that he was foretold in prior generations. Why do you butcher things so badly? This is almost unbelievable.
The point, which you missed completely, was that whenever Jesus referred to Scripture, he was obviously talking about the Old Testament. Nowhere does Jesus explicitly say to write down his sayings, create 4 Gospels, accept the teachings of Paul, etc. I’m only following your own criteria; which is that if it’s not exactly spelled out in the Bible, then it’s to be rejected. You are not consistent with your own line of reasoning and take snippets out of context.
Regarding Acts 26:14, yes, this is a phrase common to the Greek pagan playwrights of the time. Do your homework.
Again, get it through your head, SCRIPTURES/WHAT IS WRITTEN/ETC = OLD TESTAMENT. Stop playing games! Stop butchering and cutting things out of context to fit your agenda!
–God is spirit.
Yes, Trinitarians believe the Holy Spirit is God as well.
— flesh
No, Trinitarians believe Jesus was fully man and fully divine.
— KJV
Those are irrelevant and used by people who want to poke fun at the bible but they play no major role. I never claimed one translation to be superior to begin with, I simply claimed there are better and worse, and KJV falls among the better camp, for the reason I mentioned before about addressing. If you don’t have a command of the English language or are too lazy to do any extra study, that is your problem.
— 300 years before Trinitarianism
The point was that there is no authoritative list of the books of the NT, and the first one comes from heretics you deny. Because the books were written in the first century does not imply anything, because many false books/Gospels were written near apostolic times as well. You agree with the heretics on what is canon, but not on their other heresies. You are playing games with uneven scales here. Also, the Trinity was only officially accepted then, but its outlines come much earlier, so stop lying or do your homework.
— the other Scriptures 2 Peter 3
It is not clear whether the old or new testament is meant here. Regardless, this verse says nothing about exactly which books are to be accepted. Cutting and pasting, as usual for you.
Jesus, in Luke 24:44, refers to “the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (NIV), the three sections of “the [Jewish] Scriptures” (Luke 24:45 NIV), comprised of a total of 24 books, our 39 book Old Testament. The Old Testament canon was referred to this way, or simply as, “the Law and the Prophets” (Matthew 7:12 NIV). Quoting or citing these scriptures, Jesus would often say, “it is written” (Matthew 4:4,7,10). The point is that God’s Word was written.
The New Testament was also written. “What I am writing to you is the Lord’s command” (1 Corinthians 14:37 NIV). “Many have undertaken draw uo an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us . . . With this in mind . . . I too decided to write an orderly account for you . . . so that you may know the certainty of the things that have been taught” (Luke 1:1-4 NIV). “This is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders” (2 Peter 3:1 NIV). “Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters” (2 Peter 3:15,16 NIV). “I write this to you so that you will not sin” (1 John 2:1 NIV). “Write, therefore, what you have seen” (Revelation 1:19). “Write this down” (Revelation 21:5 NIV).
— The New Testament was also written.
What is the point of saying this? I agree it was written, but these verses you have pasted do nothing to argue for the exact New Testament canon which you accept. Nowhere is the New Testament canon definitively outlined to consist of 27 books. You can argue day and night they were inspired, and that’s fine, but nowhere does Scripture itself say the canon MUST contain books X, Y, and Z. I’m only bringing this up because you brought this strict criteria upon yourself when arguing that the Trinity is never explicitly mentioned in the Bible. The point is there are things which you accept that are not explicitly outlined in Scripture. You therefore are a hypocrite.
The facts are that the Trinity doctrine:
(1) Is the main doctrine of mainstream Christian churches
(2) is not only never mentioned in Scripture, the main tenets of the doctrine are never mentioned in Scripture either
(3) Even worse, the doctrine and its tenets, contradict the Scriptures.
(4) The eternal “God-man” of the Trinity doctrine is “a different Jesus” (2 Corinthians 11:4 NLT).
(5) The doctrine of the Trinity is “a different gospel”, causing “confusion”, and ‘perverts the gospel of Christ’ (Galatians 1:6,7 NIV).
The Bible says “there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Jesus Christ” (1 Timothy 2:5 NIV). By definition, the mediator cannot be either of the two parties between whom he mediates. This is one of many scriptural truths that make the Trinity doctrine impossible.
Trinitarians will counter this by saying that we cannot really understand God, so we must believe this doctrine anyway. However, the Bible says that we not only can, but we need to understand God to gain eternal life. Jesus prayed to his Father and said, “this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent” (John 17:3 NIV). “We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son, Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life” (1 John 5:20 NIV).
Notice how you avoided the response about canon and scripture because you were proven wrong
Regarding trinity those answers exist and moreover if you do not accept the trinity funny contradictions arise within the Bible
I’m done responding because this is pointless if you want to hide on your web site so be it
But friendly reminder no one is going to drive traffic here and evangelize for you
The difference between the “false doctrine” of the Trinity (1 Timothy 1:3,4) and the New Testament canon is this:
Jesus told the church that new revelation was coming through the apostles; i. e., the Holy Spirit would “guide” the apostles “into all the truth” (John 16:13 NIV). “The apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Jude 17,18 NIV), Matthew, John, Peter, and Paul’s preserved writings were considered “Scripture”, equal to “the other scriptures”, by the very early church in the 1st century (1 Timothy 5:18; 2 Peter 3:15,16). Jesus’ half-brothers James and Jude were considered equal to “the other apostles” (Galatians 1:19), and their preserved writings were likewise considered “Scripture” by the very early church in the 1st century. Mark was a very close associate of Peter, and wrote down Peter’s recollections under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in his gospel (1 Peter 5:13), and Luke was Paul’s close associate (2 Timothy 4:11). Their preserved writings were also considered “Scripture” by the very early church 1st century.
On the other hand, the Trinity doctrine is not only never mentioned in the scriptures (1 Corinthians 4:6), but, much worse, it contradicts the scriptures (1 Thessalonians 5:21; 1 John 4:1). There are numerous contradictions with the Bible if one accepts the Trinity doctrine. There are no contradictions with the Bible if one rejects the Trinity. It was not developed until the 4th century, being finalized in 381 CE by the Council of Constantinople.
Thus, there is no comparison. You’re attacking a “straw man”.
This web site is open to the public, and is not “hiding”.
— Strawman
So I start using a term to describe your depiction of the Trinity now you’d like to use it against me? Funny. Anyways, there are many sites open to the public which are dead or are nearly dead due to little traffic. I keep bringing this up because you had the audacity to ask ME to bring people to YOUR site, which is quite laughable, since that is your job. It is on you to be evangelizing, not hiding from criticism or confrontation. And, yes, sitting back and expecting people to find this small website is indeed hiding.
First:
Numerous verses in the Bible explicitly call Jesus God or ascribe Deity to Him:
Isa 7:14; 9:6; Jer 23:5; Matt 1:22f; John l:l; 5:18; 20:28; Acts 20:28; Rom 8:9; 9:5; Phil 2:6f; Col 2:9; 1Tim 3:16; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:8; 2Peter 1:1.
Second:
Jesus acted as possessing the attributes of Deity.
Jesus with hand upHe forgave sin which only God can do (Mark 2:5-12; Luke 7:47-50).
He placed His own words on par with the words of God (Matt 5:27f; 31f).
He spoke as being omniscient (Matt 17:27; Mark 2:8; Luke 9:46f; 11:17; John 1:48; 4:16-18).
He foretold the future (Matt 16:21; 24:25; 26:21-25; 31-25; John 21:18f).
Jesus controlled the weather which is the prerogative of God (Mark 4:39-41, compare Job 38:25-38).
He even promised direction and comfort to His followers based on His omnipresence (Matt 18:20; 28:20 cp. Heb 13:5 see also John 1:48; 3:13).
Third:
Attributes of God are ascribed to Jesus by others: Jesus is declared to be:
Omniscient (John 2:23-25; 16:30; 21:17)
Omnipresent (Eph 1:23; 4:10)
Omnipotent (Phil 3:21).
Eternally pre-existent (Isa 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1:1; Col 1:17)
Immutable ( not able to change–Heb 1:8-12; 13:8).
Fourth:
Acts of God are attributed to Jesus:
Jesus is said to be the Agent of creation (John 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2); yet, the LORD declares that He creates by Himself (see Isa 44:24). The LORD God breathed the breath of life into humans (Gen 2:7). But Peter proclaims Jesus to be the Prince (or Originator) of life (Acts 3:14 see also John 1:4). Jesus is also the sustainer of the universe (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3).
In the Old Testament, the LORD is the only One who can save people from their sins (Isa 43:25; 44:21; 63:16). As the New Testament opens, an angel declares to Joseph, “. . . you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins” (Matt 1:21 see also Eph 1:7). Furthermore, Peter quotes the prophet Joel as saying, “. . . whoever calls upon the name of the LORD shall be saved” (Acts 2:21). Later, Peter claims that only the name of Jesus can save (Acts 4:12).
Fifth:
Jesus is treated like He is God:
He is worshipped by humans and angels (Matt 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb 1:6; Rev 5:8-14; cf. Acts 12:20-23; Rev 19:10).
He receives the kind of “service” that is only allowed to God (Rev 22:3f Greek–latreuo; cf. Matt 4:10).
People even pray to Jesus (Acts 7:59f; 2Cor 12:8; 1John 5:13-15).
Sixth:
The Old Testament theophanies (appearances of God) are actually pre-incarnate appearances of Christ. This fact can be established because Jesus tells us, “Not that anyone has seen the Father . . .” (John 6:46). A comparison of John 12:41 with Isa 6:1-5 will confirm it was the Son, not the Father, who appeared to Isaiah. Yet, Isaiah specifically exclaims, “. . . my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts” (Isa 6:5 see also Gen 18; Exod 33:11, 20, etc.).
Seventh:
The Angel of the LORD is an interesting Person in the Old Testament. Sometimes the Angel of the LORD and the LORD are presented as being two distinct Persons (2Sam 24:16f; 1Chron 21:15f, 27). More often, though, the names seem to belong to the same Person (Exod 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19; Judges 6:12-15; 13:21f).
Eighth:
A similar situation is seem in the Revelation in the relationship of God and the Lamb. God sits on the throne; but, the Lamb “is in the midst of the throne” (Rev 7:10, 17). Later, the throne is said to belong to BOTH God and the Lamb (Rev 22:1, 3). Further, there is no temple in the New Jerusalem “. . . for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple” (Rev 21:22 cp. 1Kings 8:10-13). In addition, the glory of God and of the Lamb illumines the city (Rev 21:23 see Isa 60:19f).
Ninth:
Titles of Deity are held by both God and Jesus; yet, these titles are such that only One can possess them.
Alpha-omega crown”The Alpha and the Omega; the First and the Last” (Isa 44:5; Rev 1:8, 11, 17f; 2:8; 21:66; 22:12-17).
“The King of kings and the Lord of lords” (1Tim 6:16; Rev 17:14; 19:16).
Jesus is said to be the “Rock” who sustained the Israelites during their wilderness wanderings. However, Israel at the time believed the LORD their God was their “Rock” (1Cor 10:4; Deut 32:3f; 8:2-5).
In the Pastoral epistles, Paul juxtaposes God and Jesus when referring to “our Savior” (1Tim 1:1; 2:3; 2Tim 1:10; Titus 1:3f; 2:10, 13f; 3:4, 6). But the LORD says, “. . . there is no savior besides Me” (Hos 13:4 see also Isa 43:11).
Tenth:
Passages in the Old Testament that refer to the LORD are quoted or alluded to in the New Testament in reference to Jesus. Compare the following sets of verses:
Deut 10:14; Acts 10:36
Ps 34:8; 1Peter 2:3
Ps 102:25; Heb 1:10
Isa 26:19; 60:1; Eph 5:14
Isa 43:10; Acts 1:8
Isa 45:23; Phil 2:10
Jer 9:24; 2Cor 10:17; Phil 3:3
Jer 17:10; Rev 2:23
Joel 2:32; Rom 10:13
Zech 11:12f; Matt 26:14f
Zech 12:10; John 19:37
Mal 3:1; Mark 1:2.
Eleventh:
God uses plural, first person pronouns–“Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness” (Gen 1:26). From the earliest times, the Church has interpreted this phrase as the Father speaking to the Son (see The Epistle of Barnabas 5:5, written about 100 AD; see also Gen 11:7). The Lord even freely moves from the singular to the plural–“Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” (Isa 6:8).
Twelfth:
And finally, three verses in the Old Testament indicate there are two Persons with the name “the LORD” (Gen 19:24; Zech 2:10f; 3:1) and one passage hints there are two Persons called “God” (Ps 45:7 see Heb 1:8f).
Conclusion:
Given this wealth of information, the only logical conclusion is, Jesus is God! He is the LORD. He Himself claimed to be God; the Biblical writers portray Him as One who possesses essential Deity.
Further, Jesus proclaimed, “… if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24; MKJV, compare Exod 3:14; Deut 32:39; Isa 43:10). The vital question Jesus poses to every person is “But who do YOU say that I am?” (Matt 16:15, emphasis added).
The Bible answers the question at the end of your post. As Peter correctly answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16 NIV), not God. Jesus affirmed, “This was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven: Matthew 16:17 NIV). Your assertions that Jesus is God contradict the scriptures (1 John 4:1).
“First”—Biblical refutations:
Isaiah 7:14–If “Immanuel” makes Jesus God, then the child born to to the “young woman” (Isaiah 7:14 NIV margin) in Isaiah’s day who was called “Immanuel” was God (Isaiah 8:10).
Isaiah 9:6–Jesus is called “Mighty God”, but never “the LORD [Yahweh] Almighty” (Isaiah 9:7 NIV)
Jeremiah 23:5–The Messiah is called “a righteous Branch, a King” (NIV)
Matthew 1:22,23–Matthew 1:18 explains “This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about” (NIV). The Messiah is not God Almighty. If being called “Immanuel” makes Jesus God, the child born in Isaiah’s day called “Immanuel” would also be God.
John 1:1–“Was God: lack of a definite article with ‘God’ in Greek signifies prediction rather than identification”. As John 1:18 further explains, “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him” (NIV). Jesus is “the only begotten God” meaning he was created by his Father, but he is not the the “God” whom “no one has ever seen”.
John 5:18–Jesus’ “calling God his own Father” did not ‘make him equal to God’. Neither was he “making himself equal with God”, nor “was he breaking the Sabbath” (John 5:18 NIV), as he was falsely accused. Jesus flatly refuted the equality accusation by saying, “the Son can do nothing by himself” John 5:19 NIV). Joseph was viewed as “equal to Pharaoh himself”, but Pharaoh told him, “all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I be greater than you” (Genesis 44:18; 40:40 NIV).
John 20:28–The disciples viewed Jesus as “a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God” (Luke 24:19 NIV), “the Messiah, the Son of God” (John 20:31 NIV). Thomas’ exclamation, “My Lord [Jesus] and my God [the Father]” does not make Jesus God Almighty.
Acts 20:28–“Be shepherds of the church of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son” (NIV margin). It was Christ who “died for our sins” (1 Corinthians 15:3), not God, who “never dies” (Habakkuk 1:12 NJB). “God presented Christ [not himself] as a sacrifice of atonement” (Romans 3:25 NIV).
Romans 8:9–Does not call Jesus God, or attribute deity, to him. Romans 8:11 refers to “the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead” (NIV). Since “God . . . will never die” (Habakkuk 1:12 NIV), Jesus cannot be God.
Romans 9:5–“The Messiah, who is over all. God be forever praised!” (NIV margin). Says Jesus is “the Messiah”, not God.
Philippians 2:6–“Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped” (NAB). Jesus never considered himself equal to God.
Colossians 2:9–“In him, in bodily form, lives divinity in all its fulness” (NJB). Colossians 1:19 says that “God was pleased to have all his fulness dwell in him” (NIV). Having God’s fulness doesn’t make one God, since Christians “may participle in divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4 NIV). Also “Christ is, seated at the right hand of God” (Colossians 3:1 NIV), he can’t be God.
1 Timothy 3:16–“He [Christ, not God] appeared in the flesh”.
Titus 2:13–“As we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ” (NAB). Jesus is not referred to as God.
Hebrews 1:8–Quotes Psalm 45:6, which says of the Israelite king, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever” (NIV). If Hebrews 1:8 makes Jesus God, then Psalm 45:6 makes the Israelite king God. One meaning of God is “powerful one”.
2 Peter 1:1–“To those who have have received a faith of equal value to ours through the righteous of our God and the savior Jesus Christ” (NAB margin). Again, Jesus is not identified as God.
“Second”—Biblical refutations
Jesus’ healing the paralyzed man (Matthew 9:2-8; Mark 2:3-12; Luke 5:18-26) didn’t make him God, as the Bible makes clear, “The praised God for sending a man with great authority” (NLT). At John 20:23, Jesus gives the apostles authority to forgive sins, “If you forgive anyone their sins, their sins are forgiven” (NIV). Obviously forgiving sins doesn’t make one God.
You claim “he placed his words on a par with God”. Jesus himself refutes your claim, by saying, “These words you hear are not own; they belong to the Father who sent me” (John 14:24 NIV). “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you” (Acts 3:22 NIV). We should listen to Jesus. He speaks for God. But he’s not God, nor equal to God.
Your claim that Jesus “spoke as being omniscient”, is also refuted by Jesus himself. “About that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, not the Son, but only the Father” (Mark 13:32 NIV). “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority” (Acts 1:7 NIV).
Your claim of Jesus predictions make him God is also false. Since Jesus is God’s “prophet” (Acts 3:22), he is empowered by “the Lord your God” to foretell the future. God foretold, “I will put my words in his mouth” (Deuteronomy 18:18:18 NIV). Jesus said, “I gave them the words you gave me” (John 17:8 NIV). His predictions don’t make him God. Old Testament prophets also foretold the future, and they’re not God.
Your weather control assertion is debunked by: “Elijah . . . said to Ahab, ‘As the LORD, the God of Israel lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word” (1 Kings 17:1 NIV). “Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain” (James 5:17,18 NIV).
Your omnipresence assertion is debunked by: “He must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things” (Acts 3:20 NLT).
“Third”—Scriptural refutations
Your all-knowing and omnipresent assertions have already been refuted above.
You cite Philippians 3:21 as “proof” of Jesus’ “omnipotence”. It says, “By the power that enables him to bring everything under his control” (NIV). What is that power? “That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms” (Ephesians 1:19,20 NIV). It’s the power of “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father” (Ephesians 1:17 NIV). Jesus is never referred to as Almighty, and scriptures show that he his not the Almighty. “The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple” (Revelation 21:22 NIV).
You cite Micah 5:2 as “proof” that Jesus is Almighty, yet the scripture actually says that he had an “origin” (NRSV), a beginning. Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature” (KJV). Being a “creature” means he was created.
You “immutable” assertion is refuted by the fact that “the Word became flesh” (John 1:14). “Christ died” (1 Corinthians 15:3). “But God raised him from the dead” (Acts 2:24), “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit” (1 Peter 3:18 NAB). Several changes obviously.
“Fourth”—Scriptual refutations
Jesus is the “Agent of creation, yes, but he’s never called “Creator”. “God created everything through him” (John 1:3 NLT). “Through him God created everything” (Colossians 1:16 NLT). “Through the Son God created the universe” (Hebrews 1:2 NLT). These scriptures you cited prove that Jesus is not God, but he’s the agent that God created everything through. “Through whom all things came” (1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV).
Isaiah 42-46 contrasts Yahweh the Creator of everything, “from whom all things came” (1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV), with false gods who can do nothing. That’s why he says he’s the only Creator. Jesus is not the Creator.
“The Prince of Life” (Acts 3:15) is subservient to the “the Lord God Almighty” who “created all things” (Revelation 4:8,11 NIV).
Jesus sits “at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven” (Hebrews 1:3 NIV), but is not “the Majesty” himself. God uses him to sustain the universe.
“Jesus is the one referred o in the Scriptures. There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12 NLT). God saves through Jesus.
Fifth”—Scriptural refutations
Jesus said “the true worshippers will worship the Father” (John 4:24), not himself. He is not worshipped in the Bible. People “Did him homage” (Matthew 14:33; 28:9 NAB), and “Fell on his knees before him” (John 9:38 REB), “Let all God’s angels pay him homage” (Hebrews 1:6 REB), but Jesus is never worshipped in the Bible.
You claim that Jesus is worshipped in Revelation 5:8-14; Acts 12:20-23; Revelation 19:10, but these verses say nothing about worshipping Jesus. Heavenly creatures “fell down before him” (v 8), but didn’t worship him. When they “fell down and worshipped”, who did they worship? They “fell down before him who sits on the throne and worship[ped] him who lives forever and ever”, “fell down and worshipped God, who was seated on the throne” (Revelation 4:10; 19:4 NIV). Revelation 19:10 says we should “worship God!”, not Jesus.
You claim that people “serve” Jesus in Revelation 22:3, but the verse actually says “his servants will serve him” (NIV). Who is “him”? “They are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple” (Revelation 7:15 NIV).
Stephen “called out, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit'” (Acts 7:59 ESV), but did not pray to Jesus. Paul “pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me” (2 Corinthians 12:8 NIV), like Jesus did with the Father (Matthew 26:39,44). This is very similar to his statement in Ephesians 1:17, “I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father” (NIV). He prayed to God, not Jesus.
You assert that 1 John 5:13-15 supports praying to Jesus, but it actually does the opposite. “This is the confidence we have in approaching God” (NIV), not Jesus.
“Sixth”–Scriptural refutations
John 12:41 does not reference Isaiah’s vision of God Almighty in Isaiah 6:1-5, as Trinitarians like to imagine. John 12:38 quotes Isaiah 53:1 about lack of belief in Jesus “the arm of the Lord”. John 12:39,40 references Isaiah 6:10, giving the reason for people’s unbelief in Jesus. “Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him” (John 12:41 NIV). How did Isaiah ‘see Jesus glory’? John 12:38,40 quote from the Greek Septuagint (LXX). “See, my servant shall understand and he shall be exalted and glorified exceedingly, Just as many shall be astonished at you–so shall your appearance be without glory from men” (Isaiah 53:13,14 LXX NETS). This is the glory that John said Isaiah saw, not the vision in Isaiah 6:1-5, as Trinitarians imagine.
Not only has “No one seen the Father” (John 6:46), “No one has ever seen God” (John 1:18).
“Seventh”—Biblical refutations
You’ve given examples of angels representing Yahweh. There is zero evidence that the angel of Yahweh is Jesus, as Trinitarians like to imagine.
“The angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush” (Exodus 3:2 NIV).
“The angel of God, who had been traveling in front of Israel’s army” (Exodus 14:19 NIV).
“I am sending an angel ahead of you . . . My angel will go ahead of you” (Exodus 23:20,23 NIV).
“The angel of the LORD came and sat down . . . The angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon” (Judges 6:11,12 NIV).
“When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD” (Judges 13:21 NIV).
The truth is that “no one has ever seen God” (1 John 4:12 NIV). The Trinitarian assertion that Jesus, the so-called second person of the Trinity, was “the angel of the LORD” is without any evidence and contradicts scriptural truth.
“Eighth”–Scriptural refutations
You’re trying to assert that in Revelation, Jesus, the Lamb is equal to God.
Revelation shows just the opposite.
Revelation 5:13 shows that “him who sits on the throne” is not “the Lamb”.
Revelation 4:8-11 shows that “the Lord God Almighty”, “sits on the throne”, is worshipped, because he “created all things” (NIV).
Jesus said he “was dead” (Revelation 1:18). Habakkuk 1:12 says that “God . . . will never die” (NIV).
Revelation 21:22 clearly shows that “the Lamb” is not “the Lord God Almighty”.
Revelation 22:1,3 show that “the Lamb” is not “God”.
“Ninth”–Scriptural refutations
God and Jesus share some titles, such as “Lord” and “Savior”, but that doesn’t make Jesus God. Humans have also been called “lord”, but that doesn’t mean they are God (Genesis 18:12; Matthew 18:27 KJV,NRSV; 1 Peter 3:6). Humans have been called “savior” and “saviors” (Judges 3:9,15 NAB; Nehemiah 9:27 NAB; Obadiah 21 NKJV), but that doesn’t make them God.
Jesus is never called “the Alpha and the Omega”. That title belongs exclusively to “the Lord God Almighty” (Revelation 1:8), who has “sons” (Revelation 21:5-7; Romans 8:14; Galatians 3:26), but no brothers. Jesus has “brothers” (Matthew 25:40; Hebrews 2:11), but no sons.
Artaxerxes and Nebuchadnezzar each had the title “king of kings” (Ezra 7:12; Daniel 2:37), but that doesn’t mean they are God or Jesus Christ.
“Tenth”–Scriptural refutations of your claim that the following scriptures prove Jesus is Yahweh
Dt 10:14; Acts 10:36–These verses have no connection
Ps 34:8; 1 Pt 2:3–Does not reference Jesus
Ps 102:25; Heb 1:10–“Through the Son he created the universe” (Hebrews 1:2 NLT)
Isa 26:19; 60:1; Eph 5:14–Jesus is the “light of all mankind” (John 1:4 NIV). But that doesn’t make him Yahweh. “He was with God in the beginning” (John 1:2), but “no one has ever seen God” (John 1:18), and lots of people saw Jesus.
Isa 43:10; Acts 1:8–Being witnesses for both Yahweh and Jesus doesn’t make Jesus Yahweh. This is “the message God sent . . . announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all” (Acts 10:36 NIV).
Isa 45:23; Phil 2:10–“At the name of Jesus every knee should bow . . . and every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER” (Phil 2:10,11 NIV). Obviously, Jesus is not Yahweh.
Jer 9:24; 2 Cor 19:17; Phil 3:3–Boasting in both Yahweh God the Father and Jesus Christ doesn’t make Jesus Yahweh or equal to him.
Jer 17:10; Rev 2:23–Jesus’ ‘searching hearts and minds, repaying each person according to their deeds’ (NIV) is not surprising because “the Father . . . has entrusted all judgment to the Son” (John 5:22 NIV).
Joel 2:32; Rom 10:13–Jesus is the Lord in Rom 10:13, but nothing in the immediate context, or the entire Bible, shows that Yahweh and Jesus are the same being. In the OT people called on Yahweh for salvation, and now we call on Jesus for salvation, which doesn’t show an identity of persons, but, rather, a shift of responsibility. This was foreshadowed by Pharaoh’s entrusting Joseph with being 2nd in command. “All my people are to submit to your orders. Only with resect to the throne will I be greater than you” (Genesis 41:40 NIV).
Zech 11:12; Mt 26:14–Simply a prophecy about Jesus fulfilled
Zech 12:10; Jn 19:37–Nothing about Jesus being Yahweh. Zech 12:10 predicted “When they look on the one whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child” (NRSV). John 19:37 records the fulfillment, “scripture says, ‘they will look on the one whom they have pierced'” (NIV).
Mal 3:1; Mark 1:2–Simply a prediction and the fulfillment of “John the Baptist” coming as God’s “messenger” (Mark 1:2-4). Nothing about Jesus being Yahweh.
“Twelfth”–Scriptural refutations
Your claims that Gen 19:24; Zech 2:10f; 3:1 “indicate there are two persons with the name ‘the LORD’ is purely Trinitarian imagination, and is completely unsupported by the facts. Jesus statement that “The Lord our God is one Lord” (Mark 12:29 NRSV) debunks the Trintarian myth that there are ‘two LORDS’, or Yahwehs. Jesus agreed with the scribe who called “The Lord our God” “he” and “him” (Mark 12:33-35 NRSV).
In Psalm 45:7 the Israelite king is called “God”, and in Heb 1:8 Jesus is called “God” because they represent God to the people.
“Conclusion”–Scriptural refutations
No, Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus emphasized that, “I said, ‘I am the Son of God!” (John 10:36), and “If you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins” (John 8:24 NIV [1984]). Biblical writer John wrote, “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God” (John 20:31 NIV). Biblical writer Matthew writes that the issue was whether Jesus was “the Son of God” (Matthew 4:3,6). Biblical writers Mark, Peter and Luke record God saying of Jesus, “This is my Son” (Mark 9:7; 2 Peter 1:17; Luke 9:35). Biblical writer Paul wrote, “was designated Son of God in power by resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ, our Lord” (Romans 1:4 NJB).
Yahweh calls himself, “I will be what I will be . . . the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” (Exodus 3:14-16 NRSV margin). According to Acts 3:13, “The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob . . . has glorified his servant Jesus” (NRSV). Jesus is God’s servant, not God, not equal to God.
Thus, the Biblical evidence completely debunks the myths of the false doctrine of the Trinity.
“Eleventh”–Scriptural refutations
We agree that in Gen 1:26, God the Father is speaking to his Son, Jesus, and in Isa 6:8 “us” refers to both of them. But neither of these in any way indicates that Jesus is Yahweh, or equal to Yahweh, as Trinitarians like to imagine.
John 10:22
Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.
Where is the feast of Hanukkah in your 39 book Old Testament? As I exposed before, you cannot escape traditions, lens of interpretation, etc. You say that you are Bible only without realizing the Bible is not fully self contained, at least according to even your logic, since Hanukkah is described nowhere in the 39 books. I know you’re going to try to claim or cite another feast of dedication, so don’t be a fool and go there.
Additionally, you did nothing to refute the point that the canon of scripture is not fully outline within scripture itself. You are working backwards from an assumption that there are 27 books, without realizing that they are not all fully described within the 27. You can quote day and night that Paul was inspired, or that the early church was inspired, but then you have to somehow reconcile the facts that: the scripture is not explicitly outlined anywhere (re read many times to understand what is being said here, I said explicitly), and that the early church somehow was not preserved by Jesus and the Holy Spirit since many heresies according to you arose within the early church. Uneven scales again.
It’s too much to get into all the points above but your rebuttals are common, and the best thing I can advise again is to stop being a coward and get online with someone knowledgable about scripture.
The 39 book OT canon was firmly established 400 years prior to Jesus, and is clearly elucidated in scripture, as, for example, when Jesus mentioned, “the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (Luke 24:44 NIV). These three sections match our 39 book OT canon.
Our 27 book NT canon is also elucidated when one carefully analyzes the NT. Luke’s and Paul’s writings (16 books) were considered “Scripture” (1 Timothy 5:18; 2 Peter 3:15,16). The apostles’ writings (8 books) were viewed as authoritative (Jude 17,18). Mark wrote his gospel (1 book) as Peter’s secretary (1 Peter 5:13). Jesus’ half brothers James and Jude were viewed as “the other apostles” (Acts 15:19-21; Galatians 1:19 NIV), and their writings (2 books) as equally authoritative. Thus, we have the 27 book NT canon, all inspired writings. There were a number of other books, some of which claimed to be written by an apostle, that were rejected as uninspired. Christians were told to “not believe every every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1 NIV), and they obeyed. For example, Christians were warned to “not become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us–whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter–asserting that the day of the Lord has already come” (2 Thessalonians 2:2 NIV). The 27 inspired books constitute “the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people” (Jude 3 NIV). Paul wrote other letters (1 Corinthians 5:9; Colossians 4:16) which did not become part of the canon because the 27 book canon has all of “the faith” that we need.
Thanks for your comment. You say you “read something by Jesus mysticism” that “bothered” you. Not sure what you read, so not sure exactly how to respond.
Also, there are many varieties of mysticism, so we’re not sure exactly what kind of mysticism you’re referring to. We can say, in general, however, that mysticism does not harmonize with Bible principles. Why?
The principle expressed at Deuteronomy 18:10-12 warns God’s people of the dangers of anything to do with the occult. The principle at Colossians 2:18 expresses the principle of the danger of thinking one has some sort of special insight, experience or knowledge, and says, “the reality belongs to Christ.” (NIV) At Matthew 12:43-45, the basic principle is expressed in warning God’s people against blanking their minds. Often occult-like mystic practices, such as blotting out one’s own thoughts, open up one to demonic influence.
Based on Bible principles, we would advise anyone to avoid mysticism.
If you have any further questions, let us know.
Thank you for your question. There is abundant evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This website has numerous articles about this. Go to the “Categories” section on the Homepage, and scroll down to, and click on: “Jesus’ Resurrection.”
Let us know if you have any other questions.
Hi I hope your well, and I agree with a lot of your points and i appreciate the research you have provided in your answers. I have a couple questions
How would you explain Jesus being called the first and Last in revelation 1:17. In what context is he the first and last if this isn’t referring him to being eternal.
Also in hebrews 1:10 a text is taken from psalm 102:25 that was applied to Jehovah and it is applied to Jesus it seems regarding Jehovah laying the foundation of the earth and heavens being the work of his hands.
To clarify i’m not a trinitarian as my understanding of the bible reading it as a whole is there is only one God and he has been identified as the father, with there being many clear and unrefutable passages identifying the Father as God alone. However there are scriptures that on the surface can be seen to challenge this idea, which i have highlighted above hence why in reaching out
K—How would you explain Jesus being called the first and Last in revelation 1:17. In what context is he the first and last if this isn’t referring him to being eternal.
BA–Those are good questions. We’re pleased to reply.
Ultimately Yahweh, the Father is in control of everything. He alone is “God Almighty” (Revelation 21:22). Jesus, his Son, is the “Mighty God”, but not Almighty. Jesus said that “the true worshippers will worship the Father”, “alone” (John 4:23; Matthew 4:10).
Yahweh and Jesus have some titles that are the same, such as “Lord”, “Savior” (Titus 3:4-6), “the first and the last”, and “King of kings” (1 Timothy 6:14-16; Revelation 19:16). Human kings have also been called “king of kings” (Ezra 7:12; Daniel 2:37), and “lord” (Matthew 18:31,32; KJV; LSV; Jubilee Bible; Acts 16:30 LSV; Jubilee Bible).
Jesus is “the first and the last”, for one reason, because he is the beginning and the end of God’s plan of salvation. In the Old Testament we learn:
“He calls each generation from the beginning: I, Yahweh, who am the first and till the last I shall still be there” (Isaiah 41:4 NJB). Yahweh, the Father, uses and empowers his Son, Jesus, to judge people and to resurrect the dead:
“The Father loves his Son and shows him everything that he himself does . . . just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes. Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment to the Son . . . just as the Father has life in himself. so also he gave to the possession of life in himself. And he gave him power to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of Man” (John 5:20-22,26,27 NAB).
Jesus said, “the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory” (Matthew 16:27). Jesus represents his Father in everything he does. The Father gets his work done through Jesus, his Son.
K–Also in hebrews 1:10 a text is taken from psalm 102:25 that was applied to Jehovah and it is applied to Jesus it seems regarding Jehovah laying the foundation of the earth and heavens being the work of his hands.
BA—Jesus’ “origin is from old, from ancient times” (Micah 5:2 NAB). “He was with God in the beginning” (John 1:2) of creation, but he was not revealed until New Testament times. When Hebrews 1:10 applies Psalm 102:25 to Jesus, it’s not identifying him as “the the Lord God Almighty” “who created all things” (Revelation 4:8,11), but that he was used by his Father in the creation of the universe. For example:
“Through him God created everything” (Colossians 1:16 NLT). “God created everything through him” (John 1:3 NLT). “His Son . . . through who also he made the universe” (Hebrews 1:2 NIV).
An often overlooked scripture is Hebrews 1:9, which refers to “God, your God”. Jesus’ Father is obviously his “God”. Anyone with “God” over them cannot be God himself.
Hope this is helpful.
When Jesus is called the first and last in revelation 1:17 what is the context of him being given this title, It seems this was reserved alone for God in respect to his eternal nature.
Also in hebrews 1:10 it seems that psalm 102:25 a passage about Jehovah in the old testament relating to him being the creator a nd being unchanging is being applied to Jesus how would you explain this.
I was reading through some of your articles on Bible Authenticity today and it appears that you do not believe that Jesus was God. Is that true? If not, what/who do you believe that he was in his days on earth? And whom do you consider him to be today? Thank you.
Here’s what the Bible says:
“‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ And Jesus answered him, ‘ . . . flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father who is in heaven'”—Matthew 16:16 ESV
“Jesus Christ, the Son of God”—Mark 1:1
“‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?’ And Jesus said, ‘I am, and you will seethe Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power'”—Mark 14:61,62 ESV
“The Father is greater than I am”—John 14:28 NLT
“Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God”—John 20:31 ESV
“Christ died for our sins”—1 Corinthians 15:3
“This Jesus God has resurrected”—Acts 2:32 HCSB
“Christ is seated at the right hand of God”—Colossians 3:1 NAB. So he can’t be God.
“There is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”—1 Timothy 2:5 ESV
In Revelation 3:12, Jesus speaks of “my God” four times, which means he cannot be God.
Acts 3:13 says God “glorified his servant Jesus”. Jesus is God’s servant.
Jesus is the “Mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6), but is not “the Lord God Almighty” who “created all things” (Revelation 4:8,11).
Hope this helps.
There are many articles on this site that give even more detailed information.
Thank you, but if he is not God, when did he come into existence? He was born in Bethlehem as the Son, but did he exist before that? If so, could he be a son if he hadn’t been born yet?
Your question—Thank you, but if he is not God, when did he come into existence? He was born in Bethlehem as the Son, but did he exist before that? If so, could he be a son if he hadn’t been born yet?
Our response—Yes, he existed before his birth on earth!
Jesus said, “I came down from heaven” (John 6:38).
In foretelling Jesus’ birth on earth 700 years in advance, the scriptures reveal that his “origin is from of old, from ancient times” (Micah 5:2 NAB).
The scriptures further reveal that Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature” (Colossians 1:15 KJV), meaning he was created first by God.
From the time of his creation, Jesus has been God’s “only begotten Son” (John 3:16 KJV; NASB).
“And whom do you consider him to be today?” I couldn’t find you answer to this question I had asked: Who Jesus is today, in your opinion. You said He isn’t God. Do you believe he is an angel? There are various types of angels; there are demon spirits; and there is God (only one). I don’t know of any other types of spirit beings.
Isaiah 9
6 “For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,” — So you believe Jesus is “Mighty” God, but not “Almighty God”? More than one God? There are numerous scriptures about there being only one God.
“Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” — This Child is “Everlasting Father.” So “Almighty God” isn’t the Everlasting Father, but Jesus is?
Colossians 2
6 “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:” — THE Lord, not A Lord — how many Lords are there?
8 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” — IN CHRIST dwells all the FULNESS (completeness) of the GODHEAD BODILY.
Hebrews 1:8 – “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever…” — Almighty God told Jesus, the Son, that he is God and his throne is forever and ever. How many Gods and how many thrones? If Jesus isn’t God, why did God say that he is? Doesn’t make sense.
All scriptures from KJV, although many other versions confirm the same.
I appreciate your prompt replies to my questions, but I see too many discrepancies in your interpretation of the Scriptures. But thank you for your time.
Fuzzy—“And whom do you consider him to be today?” I couldn’t find you answer to this question I had asked: Who Jesus is today, in your opinion. You said He isn’t God.
BA—Thirty years after Jesus’ resurrection, the Bible informs us that had “God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow . . . and every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus is Lord” (Philippians 2:9-11a NIV). Did you notice who exalted Jesus “to the highest place”?—It was God!!! Jesus is the highest of all creatures in existence, but he’s not Almighty God. Trinitarians often overlook, or ignore the next phrase:
” . . . to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:12b NIV). Jesus’ highly exalted position is all “to the glory of God the Father”!!! As exalted as Jesus is, he’s still not Almighty God, nor will he ever be.
Fuzzy– Do you believe he is an angel?
BA—No!–“To which one of the angels did God ever say: ‘You are my Son'” (Hebrews 1:5 NIV). “To which one of the angels did God ever say: ‘Sit at my right hand until I make you enemies a footstool for your feet’?” (Hebrews 1:13 NIV).
Fuzzy—There are various types of angels; there are demon spirits; and there is God (only one).
BA—And there is “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth . . . and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father” (Revelation 1:5,6 NIV). Did you notice that God the Father is Jesus’ God?
Fuzzy—Isaiah 9
6 “For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,” — So you believe Jesus is “Mighty” God, but not “Almighty God”?
BA—True, notice, “The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this” (Isaiah 9:7 NIV), so, obviously not!
Fuzzy—More than one God? There are numerous scriptures about there being only one God.
BA—“There are, to be sure many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’, yet for us there is one God the Father, from who all things are . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are” (1 Corinthians 8:5,6 NAB).
Moses was made to be “as God to Pharaoh” (Exodus 7:1 NASB). Israelite rulers and judges are called by God and Jesus “gods” (Psalm 82:1,6; John 10:34). The Israelite king is addressed as “God” in Psalm 45:6. “The Israelite king, uncourtly language is called ‘god’, i. e., more than human, representing God to the people” (NAB note on Psalm 45:6).
Fuzzy—“Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” — This Child is “Everlasting Father.” So “Almighty God” isn’t the Everlasting Father, but Jesus is?
BA—In this context, yes. “As the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his son the possession of life in himself” (John 5:26 NAB). “Just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes” (John 5:21 NAB).
Fuzzy—Colossians 2
6 “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:” — THE Lord, not A Lord — how many Lords are there?
BA—“Many” (1 Corinthians 8:5). Lord is a title shared by many. Humans are also called “lords” (Acts 16:30 LSV; Jubilee Bible; Hart).
Fuzzy—8 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” — IN CHRIST dwells all the FULNESS (completeness) of the GODHEAD BODILY.
BA—“In him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily” (Colossians 2:9 NAB).
“You may be filled with all the fullness of God” (Ephesians 3:19 NAB). If having “the fullness of God” makes someone God, then Christians would be God also, which cannot be true!
Fuzzy—Hebrews 1:8 – “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever…” — Almighty God told Jesus, the Son, that he is God and his throne is forever and ever. How many Gods and how many thrones? If Jesus isn’t God, why did God say that he is? Doesn’t make sense.
BA—This is quote from Psalm 45:6. (See the explanation above). Hebrews 1:9 refers to “God, your God”, Jesus’ God, which means that Almighty is Jesus’ God.
Fuzzy—All scriptures from KJV, although many other versions confirm the same.
BA—Yes.
Fuzzy—I see too many discrepancies in your interpretation of the Scriptures
BA—“Jesus is Almighty God” contradicts the Scriptures. He’s “the Son of God” (Mark 1:1).
and the same. They both had the same mission to accomplish for God the Father. The Father sent them to the earth at different timA more accurate translation of Colossians 1:15 is “He is the image of the invisible God, the one who is first over all creation. The transliteration word ‘prōtotokos’ (translated as firstborn) derives from πρῶτος (protos, meaning “first”) and τίκτω (tikto, meaning “to bear” or “to bring forth”). He is the first to bring forth creation…not the firstborn of creation. He is not a created being.
In Genesis 1:1-2, we see God the Father and God the Holy Spirit in the creation account. In Genesis, God speaks of himself with plural pronouns: “Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.’ This is very unusual, happening in only three other places in the whole Bible.
In John 1:1-3, we see the second Person of the Trinity in the creation, God the Word (Jesus Christ, the Son). “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
John 1:14-17 explain who this Word was. “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. The transliteration word ‘monogenous’ (translated as begotten), “as of an only begotten,” can mean ‘only,’ ‘only begotten’ or ‘unique.’
Also, the firstborn, or first-begotten, in this passage, may signify the heir, or Lord: of the whole creation. For, anciently, the firstborn was entitled to possess his father’s estate.
The Word (Logos) was the Son of God in his incarnation. He was born like a man (through a woman), Son of Man, but was conceived uniquely by God the Holy Spirit, Son of God. “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:5-7).
In the Old Testament the Word came to earth as a messenger (meaning of Angel) to accomplish the Father’s will and word. He was called the Angel of the LORD. As Christ is the second Person of the Triune God in the New Testament, the Angel of the Lord is the second Person of the Trinity in the Old Testament. The Angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, “whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2). They are One and the same. They both had the same mission to accomplish for God the Father. The Father sent them to the earth at different times to deal with mankind and to accomplish His eternal will and plan of salvation for all humankind.
In Genesis 19:24, concerning Sodom and Gomorrah, it says, “Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven. The LORD on earth was the Angel of the LORD (the Word, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ). The LORD out of heaven was the Father (the Almighty). Of course, the word LORD means Yahweh, the name of God.
Both Daniel and John had a vision of God. Daniel saw the Ancient of Days, the Father. Here is his description: “I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, and its wheels a burning fire; A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, and the books were opened” (Daniel 7:9-10).
John’s vision was of God, the Son: “One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength” (Revelation 1:12-16).
The descriptions of the Father and Son sound similar, don’t they? In the New Testament, Jesus said, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). “Jesus said to him [Philip], ‘Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’” (John 14:9).
RGN—A more accurate translation of Colossians 1:15 is “He is the image of the invisible God, the one who is first over all creation. The transliteration word ‘prōtotokos’ (translated as firstborn) derives from πρῶτος (protos, meaning “first”) and τίκτω (tikto, meaning “to bear” or “to bring forth”). He is the first to bring forth creation…not the firstborn of creation. He is not a created being.
BA—Yes, he is. “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation” (Colossians 1:15 ESV). The Bible says he was created first. Then, “through him God created all things” (Colossians 1:16 NAB). “Christ . . . is preeminent and supreme as God’s agent in the creation of all things” (NAB footnote on Colossians 1:16).
RGN—In Genesis 1:1-2, we see God the Father and God the Holy Spirit in the creation account. In Genesis, God speaks of himself with plural pronouns: “Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.’ This is very unusual, happening in only three other places in the whole Bible.
BA—No, God was speaking to his Son, Jesus, because “God is only one” (Galatians 3:20 NASB).
RGN—In John 1:1-3, we see the second Person of the Trinity in the creation, God the Word (Jesus Christ, the Son). “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
John 1:14-17 explain who this Word was. “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. The transliteration word ‘monogenous’ (translated as begotten), “as of an only begotten,” can mean ‘only,’ ‘only begotten’ or ‘unique.’
BA—Jesus is “the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father”, but he is not the Almighty “God” whom “no one has ever seen” (John 1:18 NASB), and who is “his God and Father” (Revelation 1:5,6).
RGN—“that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
BA—These words are “not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century” (NIV note on 1 John 5:7,8).
RGN—In the Old Testament the Word came to earth as a messenger (meaning of Angel) to accomplish the Father’s will and word. He was called the Angel of the LORD.
BA—The scriptures never say any such thing! Hebrews 1:5-14 clearly makes the case that Jesus is not an angel.
RGN—As Christ is the second Person of the Triune God in the New Testament, the Angel of the Lord is the second Person of the Trinity in the Old Testament.
BA—The expression, “The second person of the Trinity”, is never mentioned in the Bible.
RGN—The Angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, “whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2). They are One and the same.
BA—The Bible never says that Jesus is an angel. The Hebrew word “olam” means “from of old, from ancient times” (Micah 5:2 NIV).
RGN—In Genesis 19:24, concerning Sodom and Gomorrah, it says, “Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven. The LORD on earth was the Angel of the LORD (the Word, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ). The LORD out of heaven was the Father (the Almighty). Of course, the word LORD means Yahweh, the name of God.
BA—No, “Yahweh” is “God Almighty” (Exodus 6:2,3). Jesus made clear that he is not Yahweh (Matthew 22:41-46:Psalm 110:1).
RGN—Daniel saw the Ancient of Days, the Father. Here is his description: “I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated;
John’s vision was of God, the Son: “One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength” (Revelation 1:12-16).
BA—No, “the Son of Man . . . came to the Ancient of Days” and “was given dominion and glory and a kingdom” (Daniel 7:13,14 NKJV). The scriptures make it obvious that “the Son of Man” is not “the Ancient of Days”.
RGN—The descriptions of the Father and Son sound similar, don’t they?
BA—Yes, however, the scriptures make clear that Jesus is “the IMAGE of the invisible God” “and the EXPRESS IMAGE of his person” (Hebrews 1:3 NKJV), but not Almighty God. They are similar, but nor the same.
RGN— In the New Testament, Jesus said, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30).
BA—Yes, they are “one”, in unity, but so are the disciples (John 17:11,21-23).
RGN—“Jesus said to him [Philip], ‘Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’” (John 14:9).
BA—Surely, you’re not claiming that Jesus is “the Father”, are you? Jesus is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15).
In the New Testament, Jesus said, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). “Jesus said to him [Philip], ‘Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’” (John 14:9).
Most of the Christophanies in the Old Testament are accomplished by the entity called “the Angel of the Lord.” The word Angel is translated as messenger, and Lord is translated as Jehovah in the Hebrew language. So the Angel of the Lord is not actually a created angel but is the Messenger of Jehovah. As Christ is the second Person of the Triune God in the New Testament, the Angel of the Lord is the second Person of the Trinity in the Old Testament. The Angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ, “whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2). They are One and the same, for they both had the same mission to accomplish for God the Father. The Father sent them to the earth at different times to deal with mankind and to accomplish His eternal will and plan of salvation for them.
“The combined testimony of these theophany passages (regarding the 2nd Person of the Trinity) portrays the Son of God as exceedingly active in the Old Testament, dealing with sin, providing for those in need, guiding in the path of the will of God, protecting His people from their enemies and, in general, executing the providence of God. The revelation of the person of the Son of God thus afforded is in complete harmony with the New Testament revelation. The testimony of Scripture has been so complete on this point that, in general, scholars who accept the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture are agreed that the Angel of Jehovah is the Christ of the Old Testament. Not only Christian theologians but Jewish scholars as well have come to the conclusion that the Angel of Jehovah is more than an angel.
The first appearance of the Angel of the Lord is found in Genesis 16:7-11 when Hagar (Sarai’s maid) fled into the wilderness. After Hagar had conceived (with Abram’s seed) she grew bitter toward Sarai, so Sarai in turn treated her harshly. Hagar then fled into the wilderness.
“And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where did you come from and where are you going? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress, Sarai. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hands. And the angel of the Lord said unto her: I will multiply your seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for it is such a multitude. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Ishmael; because the Lord has heard your affliction.” This is no ordinary angel to prophesy like that.
After the Angel of the Lord talked to Hagar, this is her reply as recorded by the prophet Moses: “Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her (Angel of the Lord), ‘You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, Have I also here seen Him who sees me?’” (Genesis 16:13). Clearly Hagar recognized this person to be God (in human form). “And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son’s name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael. And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ismael to Abram” (Genesis 16:15-16).
When Isaac was still a child, Sarah caught Ishmael mocking her son and then demanded Abraham cast out Hagar and Ishmael. Abraham did as the boss (Sarah) told him and gave them a small amount of food and water and sent them into the wilderness. After their supplies ran out and they were dying, Hagar lifted up her voice and wept. “And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, ‘What ails you, Hagar? Fear not; for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is’” (Genesis 21:17).
The Angel of the Lord doesn’t appear in person, but rather speaks to Hagar out of heaven. In verse 18, the Angel of the Lord tells Hagar that her son will live and He will bless him by making unto him a great nation. “Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in your hand; for I (the Angel of the Lord) will make him a great nation” (Genesis 21:18).
The next mention of the Angel of the Lord is found in Genesis 22. God decided to test Abraham’s faith and told him to take his only son, Isaac, and offer him as a burnt sacrifice to the Lord. Abraham took him to Mount Moriah (next to Salem) “and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham. And he said, ‘Here am I.’ And he (Angel of the Lord) said, Do not lay your hand upon the lad, neither do any thing unto him: for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son from me‘” (Genesis 22:9-12). FROM ME! The angel of the LORD is God (pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the Word, the Son).
Abraham looked around and saw a ram caught in a thicket by his horns, so he took it and offered it up for a burnt offering in place of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh which means In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen. “And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, and said, ‘By myself have I sworn, says the Lord, for because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son: that in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and your seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because you have obeyed my voice‘” (Genesis 22:15-18).
“And it came to pass at the time the cattle conceived, Jacob had a dream where the angel of God spoke to him, saying: Jacob: And I said, Here am I. And he said, Lift up now your eyes, and see; all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban does unto you. I AM the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar, and where you vowed a vow unto me; now arise, get out from this land (Mesopotamia/Haran), and return unto the land of your kindred in Canaan” (Genesis 31:10-13). In verse 11, the angel of God (or angel of the Lord) speaks to Jacob in a dream. In verse 13, He tells Jacob that I AM the God of Bethel (where Jacob had encountered Him decades earlier). This confirms that the angel of the Lord is God as one Person of Elohim.
Moses kept the flock of Jethro, his father-in-law. One day, he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, Mount Horeb. “The Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. So Moses said, I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up. When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, Moses, Moses! And he said, Here I am.
“Then He said, Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. He said also, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God” (Exodus 3:2-6). There are many more examples.
BA—No, “Yahweh” is “God Almighty” (Exodus 6:2,3). Jesus made clear that he is not Yahweh (Matthew 22:41-46:Psalm 110:1).
RGN- No, when you see the word LORD in the Old Testament, it is the English word for YHVH or Yahweh or Jehovah. Elohim is God or gods. Exodus 3:15 (BSB): “God also told Moses, ‘Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.” “Exodus 6:3 says, I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty (El Shaddai), but I didn’t reveal myself to them by my name ‘The Lord. (Yahweh).’ God has many names.
BA—No, “the Son of Man . . . came to the Ancient of Days” and “was given dominion and glory and a kingdom” (Daniel 7:13,14 NKJV). The scriptures make it obvious that “the Son of Man” is not “the Ancient of Days”.
RGN- No, Daniel saw the Father, the Ancient of Days. In Revelation, John saw the Son, One like the Son of Man. Their description is almost identical.
BA—Surely, you’re not claiming that Jesus is “the Father”, are you? Jesus is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15).
RGN- No, I am just quoting scripture. Jesus told Phillip, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’” (John 14:9).
This means they are both (Father, and Son) God (along with the Holy Spirit). The Tri-unity or Trinity or the Godhead. IMO.
RGN—Most of the Christophanies in the Old Testament are accomplished by the entity called “the Angel of the Lord.”
BA—There are no Christophanies in the OT. Not a single scripture supports such an idea. “And now he has made all of this plain to us by the appearing of Christ Jesus, our Savior” (2 Timothy 2:10 NIV). Jesus was alive all during the OT, but never appeared on earth until the NT.
RGN—The word Angel is translated as messenger, and Lord is translated as Jehovah in the Hebrew language. So the Angel of the Lord is not actually a created angel but is the Messenger of Jehovah.
BA—“Yet if there is an angel at their side, a messenger, one out of a thousand, sent to tell them how to be upright” (Job 33:23 NIV). All angels are God’s messengers. “All of you mighty angels, who obey God’s commands, come and praise your LORD! ” (Psalm 103:20 CEV). All angels were created by God. “Praise Yahweh . . . all his angels” (Psalm 148:1,2 NJB).
RGN—As Christ is the second Person of the Triune God in the New Testament, the Angel of the Lord is the second Person of the Trinity in the Old Testament.
BA—There is no second Person of the Triune God in the New Testament or second Person of the Trinity in the Old Testament.
RGN—The Angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ,
BA—The Bible never says any such thing. Hebrews 1:4-14 makes clear Jesus is not an angel.
RGN—The testimony of Scripture has been so complete on this point that, in general, scholars who accept the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture are agreed that the Angel of Jehovah is the Christ of the Old Testament. Not only Christian theologians but Jewish scholars as well have come to the conclusion that the Angel of Jehovah is more than an angel.
BA—There is no scripture that says Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh” (Exodus 14:19 NJB).
You’ve quoted several scriptures where angels represent Almighty God Yahweh to humans, but they are still angels. The Bible never implies they are anything more than angels. With Jacob, for example, Hosea 12:4 says, “he struggled with the angel” (NIV).
RGN—God has many names.
BA—No, God has only one name, according to the Bible. “I am Yahweh, that is my name!” (Isaiah 42:8 NJB). But God has many titles.
RGN—BA—No, “the Son of Man . . . came to the Ancient of Days” and “was given dominion and glory and a kingdom” (Daniel 7:13,14 NKJV). The scriptures make it obvious that “the Son of Man” is not “the Ancient of Days”.
RGN- No, Daniel saw the Father, the Ancient of Days
BA—-If you’ll read Daniel 7:13,14, you’ll see that Daniel also saw “the Son of Man”.
RGN—In Revelation, John saw the Son, One like the Son of Man. Their description is almost identical.
BA—Similar, but in the same context, the scriptures refer to Jesus’ “God and Father” (Revelation 1:5,6).
RGN— “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’” (John 14:9).
This means they are both (Father, and Son) God (along with the Holy Spirit). The Tri-unity or Trinity or the Godhead.
BA—There is no mention of the holy Spirit, Tri-unity, Trinity, or Godhead, in John 14:9. Neither is Jesus called God in John 14:9.
The fact is that the scriptures are clear that, “NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD” (1 John 4:9 NIV). “No one may see me and live” (Exodus 22:20 NIV).
BA—The Bible never says any such thing. Hebrews 1:4-14 makes clear Jesus is not an angel.
RGN- How many times do I have to tell you. I’m not saying Jesus is an angel! I’m saying the Angel of the Lord is not an angel but the Messenger of the Lord. Hebrew – mălʼâk, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger. I’m saying the Angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus. He is also called the Son of God and the Word. All the examples I gave you indicate this being is more than an Angel. I didn’t think I would have to explain these verses to you, but I guess I will have to.
Regarding Hagar, “And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? Question: Who spoke to Hagar? Answer: the angel of the LORD. SHE CALLED THE NAME OF THE LORD THAT SPOKE TO HER….Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her (the Angel of the Lord is the one who spoke to her), ‘You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, Have I also here seen Him who sees me?’” (Genesis 16:13). Clearly Hagar recognized this person to be God (in human form).
In Genesis 21:17,18 “And God heard the voice of the lad. Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, “What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation.” Question: Who is talking. Answer: the angel of God. If the angel of God is talking and says I will make him a great nation, that means this is no mere angel. God is the only one who can do that (as in the pre-incarnate Jesus, aka the Word).
Genesis 22:11-12 says, But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.” And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” The angel of the LORD said FROM ME! In other words, he is relating God to Me (the angel of the LORD, the one talking).
Genesis 22:15-18: Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven…..In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” Whose voice is My voice. The voice of the angel of the LORD. It is the voice of the WORD.
Genesis 31:11-13 – Jacob had a dream where the angel of God spoke to him, saying: Jacob…… I AM the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar, and where you vowed a vow unto me; now arise, get out from this land (Mesopotamia/Haran), and return unto the land of your kindred in Canaan.” Who spoke. The angel of God. What did he call himself? He said, I Am (another name for God) the God of Bethel… Again, it is the voice of the WORD (pre-incarnate Son of God, Jesus). You’re not saying God can’t speak for Himself, so He has to get an angel to do it for him are you?
Exodus 3:2-6 – ““The angel of the LORD appeared to him (Moses) in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush…..When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, Moses, Moses! And he said, Here I am.
“Then He said, Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. He said also, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God” Who appeared to Moses in a burning bush? The angel of the LORD. Who called to Moses from the bush? God. Who did the angel of the LORD say he was? The God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. aka. the WORD (pre-incarnate Jesus Christ).
These scriptures (and many others) make it clear the Messenger (Angel) of the Lord is more than an Angel. And just because the Bible doesn’t say Jesus was the Angel of the LORD doesn’t mean he isn’t. The Bible doesn’t mention the word Bible either. The pre-incarnate Jesus is the one Micah is referring to: “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel” (Micah 5:2-3). Jesus is this ruler in Israel (especially in the millennium) whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
I know the word Trinity isn’t in the Bible, and it doesn’t explicitly say it includes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. However, Matthew 28:16-19 says, “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” If Jesus isn’t God, was it wrong for the disciples to worship him? And why would they baptize in the name of this trinity?
RGN—I’m saying the Angel of the Lord is not an angel but the Messenger of the Lord.
BA—This is almost unbelievable! When the scriptures say, “the angel of Yahweh” (Exodus 14:19 NJB), we’re not to believe what they say? The scriptures make clear that all angels are messengers. We’ll stick with the scriptures. When the scriptures say it is an angel, it’s an angel. Case closed!
RGN—Hebrew – mălʼâk, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger.
BA—True, that’s scriptural.
RGN—I’m saying the Angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus.
BA—Here’s where you jump from fact to fiction.
RGN—Regarding Hagar, “And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? Question: Who spoke to Hagar? Answer: the angel of the LORD. SHE CALLED THE NAME OF THE LORD THAT SPOKE TO HER….Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her (the Angel of the Lord is the one who spoke to her), ‘You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, Have I also here seen Him who sees me?’” (Genesis 16:13). Clearly Hagar recognized this person to be God (in human form).
BA—No, the scriptures are clear this is “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7 NJB)
RGN—In Genesis 21:17,18 “And God heard the voice of the lad. Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, “What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation.” Question: Who is talking. Answer: the angel of God. If the angel of God is talking and says I will make him a great nation, that means this is no mere angel. God is the only one who can do that (as in the pre-incarnate Jesus, aka the Word).
BA—No, according to the scriptures, it actually wasn’t until “these last days” that “God” “has spoken us by his Son” (Hebrews 1:1,2 ESV).
RGN—Genesis 22:11-12 says, But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.” And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” The angel of the LORD said FROM ME! In other words, he is relating God to Me (the angel of the LORD, the one talking).
Genesis 22:15-18: Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven…..In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” Whose voice is My voice. The voice of the angel of the LORD. It is the voice of the WORD.
BA—No, you’re reading something into the text that isn’t there. The scriptures are abundantly clear that “the angel of Yahweh called him”, “Abraham” (Genesis 22:11,15 NJB).
RGN—Genesis 31:11-13 – Jacob had a dream where the angel of God spoke to him, saying: Jacob…… I AM the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar, and where you vowed a vow unto me; now arise, get out from this land (Mesopotamia/Haran), and return unto the land of your kindred in Canaan.” Who spoke. The angel of God. What did he call himself? He said, I Am (another name for God) the God of Bethel… Again, it is the voice of the WORD (pre-incarnate Son of God, Jesus). You’re not saying God can’t speak for Himself, so He has to get an angel to do it for him are you?
BA—It is the scriptures, not us, that are saying “the angel of God spoke to him”. God CAN do anything, of course, but the scriptures are clear that he spoke through angels representing him. It is not for us to read into the scriptures something that is not there.
Saying “I am” doesn’t make one God. For example, the healed blind man said “I am” (John 9:9), but that doesn’t make him God.
RGN—Exodus 3:2-6 – ““The angel of the LORD appeared to him (Moses) in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush…..When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, Moses, Moses! And he said, Here I am. “Then He said, Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. He said also, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God” Who appeared to Moses in a burning bush? The angel of the LORD. Who called to Moses from the bush? God. Who did the angel of the LORD say he was? The God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. aka. the WORD (pre-incarnate Jesus Christ).
BA—-No, according to the scriptures, it actually wasn’t until “these last days” that “God” “has spoken us by his Son” (Hebrews 1:1,2 ESV). After Christ’s resurrection, the scriptures make plain, “an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fore in a bush” (Acts 7:30 ESV).
RGN—These scriptures (and many others) make it clear the Messenger (Angel) of the Lord is more than an Angel. And just because the Bible doesn’t say Jesus was the Angel of the LORD doesn’t mean he isn’t. The Bible doesn’t mention the word Bible either. The pre-incarnate Jesus is the one Micah is referring to: “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel” (Micah 5:2-3). Jesus is this ruler in Israel (especially in the millennium) whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
BA—The fact that Jesus was in existence at that time doesn’t make him “the angel of Yahweh” who spoke to humans.
RGN—I know the word Trinity isn’t in the Bible, and it doesn’t explicitly say it includes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. However, Matthew 28:16-19 says, “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” If Jesus isn’t God, was it wrong for the disciples to worship him? And why would they baptize in the name of this trinity?
BA—That account says nothing about any Trinity, or that the Son and the holy Spirit are God. Below are two more accurate translations than the KJV:
“When they saw him, they worshipped, but some doubted” (Matthew 28:17 CSB). It doesn’t say they worshipped Jesus.
“When they saw him, they fell down before though some doubted” (Matthew 28:17 NJB).
Some people today say they have seen God. Preachers teach that people in the Bible saw God. Is this true? What does the Bible say?
“The Son is the image of the invisible God”—Colossians 1:15 NIV
“To the King eternal, immortal, invisible”—1 Timothy 1:17 NIV
The Bible says that Almighty God is invisible. What is invisible cannot be seen by human eyes. He has always been “invisible”. “I, Yahweh, do not change” (Malachi 3:6 NJB)
“Yahweh said, ‘ . . . no human being can see me and survive.”—Exodus 33:20 NJB
“No one has ever seen God”—John 1:18 NIV; 1 John 4:12 NIV
“No one has ever seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father”—John 6:46 NIV
“God . . . who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see”—1 Timothy 6:15,16 NIV
Thus, the scriptures throughout the entire Bible are very clear that no one has ever seen God!
What about those instances where someone is said to have seen God? One thing to keep in mind is that, “In the past spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and IN VARIOUS WAYS” (Hebrews 1:1 NIV). (Emphasis ours)
Angels at times spoke or acted on behalf of God. —See Genesis 16:7-13
“Yahweh appeared to him at the Oak of Mamre . . . and there he saw three men standing near him” (Genesis 18:1,2 NJB). One of these angels represented Yahweh. “While the men left there and went to Sodom, Yahweh remained in Abraham’s presence” (Genesis 18:22 NJB). “When he had finished talking to Abraham Yahweh went away . . . When the two angels reached Sodom in the evening . . . “—Genesis 18:33; 19:1 NJB). This is a clear indication that the “men” were materized “angels”. Hebrews 13:2 confirms that “some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it” (NIV).
“Jacob” said, ‘I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared'” (Genesis 32:30 NIV), after “He struggled with the angel and overcame him” (Hosea 12:4 NIV). The angel was not God, but represented God.
“Manoah said to his wife, ‘We are certain to die because we have seen God'”. Taken out of context, this looks like the had actually “seen God”. But had they? The context reveals: “Manoah understood that this had been the angel of Yahweh.” (Judges 13:21,20 NJB).
Sometimes God was seen in visions.
“The word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision”—Genesis 15:1 NJB
“Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel . . . they saw God, and they ate and drank” (Exodus 24:9-11 NIV). This is often cited by those who like to believe that Almighty God has been seen by humans. However, if this rendering is literally true, it contradicts other scriptures which say that ‘No one has ever seen God.” The Hebrew can also be rendered as, “they had a vision of God, and did eat and drink” (Exodus 24:11 The Emphasized Bible [EB]). (Emphasis ours)
“God spoke to Israel in a vision at night and said, ‘ . . . I am God, the God of your father'”—Genesis 46:2,3 NIV (Emphasis ours)
“My eyes have the King, Yahweh Saboath” (Isaiah 6:5 NJB) is often cited as “proof” that Isaiah had “seen the LORD Almighty”. However, this claim is debunked when the wider context of the Book of Isaiah and the entire Bible is taken into consideration. For instance, “These are the visions that Isaiah son of Amos saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. He saw these visionsduring the years when Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah were kings of Judah” (Isaiah 1:1 NLT). Thus, the Book of Isaiah opens with an explanation of how Isaiah received his information—It was through “visions”. (Emphasis ours)
Ezekiel 1:26-29 is sometimes asserted by those who want to believe that Ezekiel saw Almighty, however, Ezekiel opened his book by explaining: “the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God” (Ezekiel 1:1 NIV). So, any seeming view “of God” is explained to be in “visions”.
Stephen “looked up intently to heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said. ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God” (Acts 7:55,56 NAB). This account is also used to “prove” that Almighty God. However, the phrase “the heavens opened” is almost identical to Ezekiel’s phrase “the heavens were opened,” where he explained he “saw visions of God”. Once again, when the wider context of the entire Bible is considered, it is obvious that Stephen had a vision of God and Jesus.
“The Lord called to him in a vision, ‘Ananias!'”—Acts 9:10 NIV. The account is narrated to explain that Ananias had “a vision” of “the Lord”.
How about where, “Yahweh said: ‘ . . . if there is a prophet among you, I reveal myself to him in a vision, I speak to him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses . . . to him I speak face to face . . . he sees Yahweh’s form'” (Numbers 12:6-8 NJB)? This is asserted to mean that Moses actually literally saw God. But, yet again, when we consider both the local and the wider Biblical context, Almighty God explains what he means, “to him I speak . . . plainly and not in riddles” (Numbers 12:8 NJB), and when Moses asked to see God, “Yahweh said,’ . . . no human being can see me and survive'” (Exodus 33:19,20 NJB).
Thus, the entire Bible is very clear that, “No one has ever seen God” (1 John 4:12 NIV), because he is “invisible” (1 Timothy 1:17 NIV)..
BA—This is almost unbelievable! When the scriptures say, “the angel of Yahweh” (Exodus 14:19 NJB), we’re not to believe what they say? The scriptures make clear that all angels are messengers. We’ll stick with the scriptures. When the scriptures say it is an angel, it’s an angel. Case closed!
RGN – Yes, it is unbelievable. The Hebrew scriptures don’t say, “the angel of Yahweh.” They say “mal-’aḵ Yah-weh” Of course, we know the second word “Yahweh” is translated as “LORD” or “Jehovah” in most translations. The first word “mal-’aḵ’ is translated in the KJV as “angel” 111 times and as “messenger” 98 times, and as ambassador 4 times. From the Scripture I showed you in my previous comments, it is clear this is no ordinary angel. In fact, He is no angel at all. He is the Messenger of God. Just as Jesus was God’s messenger during New Testament times, so was “the angel of the LORD” God’s messenger in Old Testament times. They are one and the same. The verses I mentioned (and many more) prove the angel of the LORD was God Himself, thus the second Person of the Trinity. The word “messenger” has every right to be the correct translation as the word “angel” does. Even more when you consider the content of these scriptures. Just because your interpretation of malak doesn’t supersede my interpretation as they are both valid. Who made you the arbiter of truth.
BA—No, the scriptures are clear this is “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7 NJB)
RGN – No, the scriptures are clear this is “the messenger of Yahweh (Genesis 16:7 CEB, GW, NOG, VOICE, YLT). See, I can say “No” too. The EXB translations says “The ·angel [messenger] of the Lord [C the angel of the Lord was either a representative of the Lord or the Lord himself; v. 13; Judg. 6:11, 14]”
BA—No, you’re reading something into the text that isn’t there. The scriptures are abundantly clear that “the angel of Yahweh called him”, “Abraham” (Genesis 22:11,15 NJB).
BA – Yes, it was the “angel”of Yahweh who called him from heaven. But the question remains, was it a mere angel (or some special angel) or was it the special “messenger” of Yahweh. Why would God choose to talk through an angel? The scriptures I quoted indicate this being was God Himself. The only explanation for this is He is part of the Trinity.
BA—-No, according to the scriptures, it actually wasn’t until “these last days” that “God” “has spoken us by his Son” (Hebrews 1:1,2 ESV). After Christ’s resurrection, the scriptures make plain, “an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fore in a bush” (Acts 7:30 ESV).
RGN – No, the word (transliteration) is angelos (from aggello [probably derived from ἄγω (G71), cf ἀγέλη (G34)] (to bring tidings)} which can be translated as messenger or angel. Why don’t you go to the source of this quote in Acts? ” And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.”(Exodus 3:2, 4-6). Are you saying God jumped into the bush with the angel of the LORD? It says God called unto him out of the bush and talked to Moses. So, who was talking? Was it God or the Angel?
BA—The fact that Jesus was in existence at that time doesn’t make him “the angel of Yahweh” who spoke to humans.
RGN – It doesn’t discount it either. They both gave messages from God, the Father and did His will.
Why would God create a being (in your opinion), the Son, the firstborn of all creation, who “through him” God created the universe and then the Son doesn’t take part in any of the events mentioned in scriptures of the Old Testament? Instead, in your opinion, it is an angel who intercedes in the lives and events of the people on Earth during O.T. times. The “angel of the Lord” is mentioned 56 times in the O.T. The Son of God is mentioned once in the O.T. Why did God work through the angel of the Lord instead of the Son of God during these times? Is he just waiting for the incarnation to take place so he can become active?
Also, why would God’s plan of salvation be contingent on believing in God and an (originally) created being? “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:1,6).
Who do you think the Holy Spirit is? “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Was Jesus conceived by the Holy Ghost or the Father? If Jesus’ mother was a human and his father was God, what does that make him (in your opinion)? In his pre-incarnation you believe him to merely be a created being, not an angel and not God. Is Jesus just another created being (like Adam and the angels) or is he divine? If he is divine, how is he not God (or part of God)? How does that work? If Jesus, the Son of God, is a created being (like he was in his pre-incarnate days according to your view) why would God want mankind to come through him to get to the Father? None of it makes sense.
RGN—Who do you think the Holy Spirit is? “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Was Jesus conceived by the Holy Ghost or the Father? If Jesus’ mother was a human and his father was God, what does that make him (in your opinion)? In his pre-incarnation you believe him to merely be a created being, not an angel and not God. Is Jesus just another created being (like Adam and the angels) or is he divine? If he is divine, how is he not God (or part of God)? How does that work? If Jesus, the Son of God, is a created being (like he was in his pre-incarnate days according to your view) why would God want mankind to come through him to get to the Father? None of it makes sense.
BA—God used his holy Spirit to cause Mary to become pregnant with the life of Jesus. Notice:
“The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God”—Luke 1:32 NAB
God’s holy Spirit is God’s “power”. Jesus was “fully human in every way” (Hebrews 2:17 NIV). He was not “JUST a human being”. “The Word was divine” (John 1:1 AAT), “the Father’s only Son” (John 1:14 NAB), “in the beginning with God” (John 1:2 NAB). The Almighty God does not deal with humans directly because of sin (Habakkuk 1:13). This is why he uses Jesus as “the one mediator between God and mankind” (1 Timothy 2:5 NIV).
It is often said that the holy Spirit is “the third person of the Trinity”, the three-in-one Godhead. Can it be, however, that there can be a part of the holy Spirit, only “a portion” of the holy Spirit? Yes, this is exactly what the scriptures themselves indicate, as we will see from the following scriptures:
“The LORD then came down in the cloud and spoke to him. Taking some of the spirit that was on Moses, he bestowed it on the seventy elders; and as the spirit came to rest on them, they prophesied but did not continue”—Numbers 11:25 NAB
“And it shall be after these things, I will pour out of my spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy”—Joel 2:28 NETS
“Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union?”—Malachi 2:15 ESV
“For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God. He does not ration his gift of the Spirit”—John 3:34 NAB
“‘It will come to pass in the last days’, God says, ‘that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh'”—Acts 2:17 NAB
“The blessing of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the participation in the holy Spirit be with you all”—2 Corinthians 13:14 AAT
“Renewal in the Holy Spirit which he has so generously poured over us through Jesus Christ our Saviour”—Titus 3:6 NJB
“He has given us a share in his Spirit”—1 John 4:13 NJB
The phraseology, “some of the spirit”, “a portion of”, “pour out of”, “his gift of”, “participation in”, “a share in”, all combine to indicate that the holy Spirit is not a person.
In the Bible, particularly the New Testament letters, greetings are given from God and Jesus in 20 of the 21 New Testament canonical letters. We know that God the Father and Jesus Christ are both persons, so we should expect to see their greetings, and we do in these 20 letters. (Third John does not have such a greeting or praises.) But what about the Holy Spirit and the Trinity? If the holy Spirit is a person, or if the Trinity is a real entity, we should expect to see some type of greetings from the holy Spirit, and/or the Trinity, and/or praises to the holy spirit, or Trinity, as well. But is this the case? Let’s examine the greetings in the letters to find out.
Greetings
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7)
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 1:3)
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Corinthians 1:2)
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:3)
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Ephesians 1:2)
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:2)
“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God… grace and peace to you from God our Father.” (Colossians 1:1-2)
“To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 1:1)
“Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thessalonians 1:2)
“Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.” (1 Timother 1:2)
“Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” (Titus 1:4)
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Philemon 1:3)
“In the past God spoke… through the prophets… but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.” (Hebrews 1:1-2)
“James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.” (James 1:1)
“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 1:3)
“Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.” (2 Peter 1:2)
“Our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:3)
“Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son” (2 John 1:2)
“To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ” (Jude 1:1)
In the New Testament letters, greetings (and praises) are given from, and to, God and Jesus, but never from the holy Spirit or the Trinity. This is significant because if the Holy Spirit was actually a person, or the Trinity was a real entity, we would see greetings from it – or them – or him. Since we never see greetings from, or praises to, the holy Spirit or the Trinity, but we do from God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, this is a strong indication the holy Spirit is not a person, and the Trinity does not actually exist. How about praises in the New Testament?
Praises (other than greetings)
“Praise the LORD, all you Gentiles! Laud him, all you people” (Romans 15:11 NKJV). This verse is a quote from Psalm 117:1, which says, “praise Yahweh.” The holy Spirit is never called Yahweh in the Bible.
“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord our Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 1:3)
While God and Jesus are often praised in the Bible, there are no praises are ever given to the holy Spirit, which is another powerful evidence the holy Spirit is not a person.
RGN—The Hebrew scriptures don’t say, “the angel of Yahweh.” They say “mal-’aḵ Yah-weh” Of course, we know the second word “Yahweh” is translated as “LORD” or “Jehovah” in most translations. The first word “mal-’aḵ’ is translated in the KJV as “angel” 111 times and as “messenger” 98 times, and as ambassador 4 times. From the Scripture I showed you in my previous comments, it is clear this is no ordinary angel. In fact, He is no angel at all. He is the Messenger of God. Just as Jesus was God’s messenger during New Testament times, so was “the angel of the LORD” God’s messenger in Old Testament times. They are one and the same. The verses I mentioned (and many more) prove the angel of the LORD was God Himself, thus the second Person of the Trinity. The word “messenger” has every right to be the correct translation as the word “angel” does. Even more when you consider the content of these scriptures. Just because your interpretation of malak doesn’t supersede my interpretation as they are both valid. Who made you the arbiter of truth.
BA–Yes, the HS do say, “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7,13), and he cannot be Yahweh, because he is the angel of Yahweh. “The angel of the Lord appeared” to Joseph in a dream (Matthew 1:20,24) to tell him that Mary was pregnant with “Jesus” (Matthew 1:25). All angels are God’s messengers (Psalm 103:20).
“Interpretations belong to God” (Genesis 40:8 NIV). Scripture interprets scripture when one is “accurately handling the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15 NASB).
RGN—Yes, it was the “angel”of Yahweh who called him from heaven. But the question remains, was it a mere angel (or some special angel) or was it the special “messenger” of Yahweh. Why would God choose to talk through an angel? The scriptures I quoted indicate this being was God Himself. The only explanation for this is He is part of the Trinity.
BA—You’re reading things into the scriptures that aren’t there.You admit that it was an angel who spoke, but then you contradict yourself by claiming the angel “was God himself”.
RGN— Are you saying God jumped into the bush with the angel of the LORD? It says God called unto him out of the bush and talked to Moses. So, who was talking? Was it God or the Angel?
BA—God used the angel to speak for him. “The angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame blazing from the middle of a bush” (Exodus 3:2 NJB: Acts 7:30). The scriptures are clear on this.
RGN—Why would God create a being (in your opinion), the Son, the firstborn of all creation, who “through him” God created the universe and then the Son doesn’t take part in any of the events mentioned in scriptures of the Old Testament? Instead, in your opinion, it is an angel who intercedes in the lives and events of the people on Earth during O.T. times. The “angel of the Lord” is mentioned 56 times in the O.T. The Son of God is mentioned once in the O.T. Why did God work through the angel of the Lord instead of the Son of God during these times? Is he just waiting for the incarnation to take place so he can become active?
BA—“When time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman” (Galatians 4:4 NIV). We are warned “not to go beyond what is written in Scripture” (1 Corinthians 4:6 GWT), and not read into the scriptures things that aren’t there.
RGN—Also, why would God’s plan of salvation be contingent on believing in God and an (originally) created being?
BA—Because, “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement . . . so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus” (Romans 3:25 NIV).
RGN—“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:1,6).
BA–The scripture you quoted, John 14:1, proves that Jesus isn’t God, because it says “ye believe in God, believe also in me.” Jesus is saying he’s not God!!!
BA—You’re reading things into the scriptures that aren’t there. You admit that it was an angel who spoke, but then you contradict yourself by claiming the angel “was God himself”.
RGN – Once more. The “angel of the Lord” is one English translation. The other is the “messenger (or representative) of the Lord.” Hebrew – mălʼâk, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger. You think malak means the angel of the Lord. I think malak means the messenger of the Lord in the scriptures that mention “the angel/messenger of the Lord.” I choose to believe it was not an angel but the pre-incarnate Jesus (the Word). He is the messenger of the Lord in the Old Testament.
BA—You’re reading things into the scriptures that aren’t there. You admit that it was an angel who spoke, but then you contradict yourself by claiming the angel “was God himself”.
RGN – I am using your interpretation when I call him the “angel of the Lord.” However, if you use my interpretation “messenger of the Lord”, it is not an angel who spoke but
God Himself (the Word- second Person of the Trinity). There is no contradiction there. In fact, you are the one who is reading things into the scriptures when you say God is speaking through an angel. “She called the name of the LORD WHO SPOKE TO HER, “You are a God who sees,” for she said, “Here have I really seen him who sees me?” (EHV – Genesis 16:13). It doesn’t get any plainer than that. The messenger of the Lord speaks to her and she calls him God.
Here’s another one you add your own thoughts to. “The Lord’s ‘messenger’ called out to Abraham from heaven a second time, and said, I GIVE MY WORD AS THE LORD that because you did this and didn’t hold back your son, your only son.” (CEB – Genesis 22:15-16). It’s clear the Lord’s messenger is the Lord. How can this be if he is an angel. It can’t. The only way it’s possible is if the MESSENGE OF THE LORD is the Word (the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Trinity). I could keep going but I think you (should) get the point (probably not). You keep saying “God used the angel to speak for him.” Where in the scriptures does it say that? It doesn’t, you are adding your own thoughts to enhance your viewpoint.
BA—“When time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman” (Galatians 4:4 NIV). We are warned “not to go beyond what is written in Scripture” (1 Corinthians 4:6 GWT), and not read into the scriptures things that aren’t there.
RGN – You should heed your own advice. Yes, God sent the incarnate Son to the earth, Jesus, when the time had fully come. This is God’s messenger for this time, like the pre-incarnate Word (messenger of the Lord) was during the O.T. times. Two messengers, same Person. No angels involved. I think I have proved in the previous comments how you are the one who is reading things into the scriptures that aren’t there. Yes, no one has ever seen the Father (except the Son) but they have seen “the messenger of the Lord” and the Son (Jesus Christ).
BA–The scripture you quoted, John 14:1, proves that Jesus isn’t God, because it says “ye believe in God, believe also in me.” Jesus is saying he’s not God!!!
RGN – This is unbelievable! (to use your words). Jesus is not saying he’s not God. Where does it say that? Does it say, “you believe in God, believe also in me even though I’m not God? It’s just the opposite. Jesus is saying, you believe in God (the Father), believe also in me. If the disciples thought that Jesus was a created being, they wouldn’t have believed in him (and neither would I). Who was Jesus before the incarnation (when he was with the Father). Was he a created being, similar to the angels (like Michael, only greater) or was he divine from the beginning? I’m saying He was divine.
RGN—You think malak means the angel of the Lord. I think malak means the messenger of the Lord in the scriptures that mention “the angel/messenger of the Lord.”
BA—That’s what the scriptures say.
RGN— I choose to believe it was not an angel but the pre-incarnate Jesus (the Word). He is the messenger of the Lord in the Old Testament.
BA—Yes, that is your assumption. However, in the scriptures, “the angel of Yahweh” is always identified as an angel. For example, “the angel of the LORD said, ‘LORD Almighty . . . ” (Zechariah 1:12 NIV). Obviously, “the angel of the LORD” cannot be “the LORD Almighty”.
“Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?” (Mark 12:26 NIV). If Jesus was “the angel of the LORD” in the burning bush, he would have said, “I said to him”, rather than “God said to him”.
RGN – I am using your interpretation when I call him the “angel of the Lord.” However, if you use my interpretation “messenger of the Lord”, it is not an angel who spoke but God Himself (the Word- second Person of the Trinity). There is no contradiction there. In fact, you are the one who is reading things into the scriptures when you say God is speaking through an angel. “She called the name of the LORD WHO SPOKE TO HER, “You are a God who sees,” for she said, “Here have I really seen him who sees me?” (EHV – Genesis 16:13). It doesn’t get any plainer than that. The messenger of the Lord speaks to her and she calls him God.
BA—Four times in this account, he is called “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7,9,10,11 NJB). The scriptures never mention any “second person of the Trinity”, nor do they say that Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh.”
RGN—Here’s another one you add your own thoughts to. “The Lord’s ‘messenger’ called out to Abraham from heaven a second time, and said, I GIVE MY WORD AS THE LORD that because you did this and didn’t hold back your son, your only son.” (CEB – Genesis 22:15-16). It’s clear the Lord’s messenger is the Lord.
BA—No, the scriptures say it’s “the angel of Yahweh”.
RGN—How can this be if he is an angel.
BA—This is the principle of agency, which the Jews recognized. The angel, acting as God’s agent, spoke for him.
RGN—The only way it’s possible is if the MESSENGE OF THE LORD is the Word (the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Trinity).
BA—No, you’ve imagined that right into the account. The scriptures never mention any “second person of the Trinity”, nor do they say that Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh.”
RGN—Yes, God sent the incarnate Son to the earth, Jesus, when the time had fully come. This is God’s messenger for this time, like the pre-incarnate Word (messenger of the Lord) was during the O.T. times. Two messengers, same Person. No angels involved.
BA—Yes, according to the scriptures, “The angel of Yahweh” was/were an angel(s) who spoke and acted for God. “Bless Yahweh, all his angels, mighty warriors who fulfill his commands, attentive to the sound of his words. Bless Yahweh, all his armies, servants who fulfill his wishes” (Psalm 103:20,21 NJB).
However, “when the time had fully come, GOD SENT HIS SON” (Galatians 4:4 NIV). Hebrews 1:4-13 makes clear that Jesus is “much superior to the angels” (NIV).
RGN— Yes, no one has ever seen the Father (except the Son)
BA—The scriptures also say that “No one has ever seen God” (1 John 4:12 NIV), which means that Jesus cannot be God, since many people saw him.
RGN – This is unbelievable! (to use your words). Jesus is not saying he’s not God. Where does it say that? Does it say, “you believe in God, believe also in me even though I’m not God? It’s just the opposite. Jesus is saying, you believe in God (the Father), believe also in me. If the disciples thought that Jesus was a created being, they wouldn’t have believed in him (and neither would I). Who was Jesus before the incarnation (when he was with the Father). Was he a created being, similar to the angels (like Michael, only greater) or was he divine from the beginning? I’m saying He was divine.
BA—“The Word was divine . . . with God in the beginning” (John 1:1,2 AAT). Divine means godlike, or, of God. For example, ““Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel” (Acts 10:22 NASB). God directed this angel.
“You believe in God, believe also in me”. The language clearly indicates that God is someone other than Jesus.
Micah 5:2 reveals that Jesus’ “origins are from of old, from ancient times” (NIV). The scripture plainly makes the point that Jesus had a beginning. Therefore, he was created. Jesus’ disciples knew this scripture well (Matthew 2:4,5), so they had to know he was created.
BA—Yes, that is your assumption. However, in the scriptures, “the angel of Yahweh” is always identified as an angel. For example, “the angel of the LORD said, ‘LORD Almighty . . . ” (Zechariah 1:12 NIV). Obviously, “the angel of the LORD” cannot be “the LORD Almighty”.
RGN- If the correct translation of malak is “the Messenger of the LORD” where does it say he is an angel? mălʼâk, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to dispatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God.
BA – Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?” (Mark 12:26 NIV). If Jesus was “the angel of the LORD” in the burning bush, he would have said, “I said to him”, rather than “God said to him”.
RGN – Jesus is speaking in the third-person vernacular. Do you think he is going to go around saying “I did this as God” back in the good old days. The Jews would have killed him right there on the spot.
BA—Four times in this account, he is called “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7,9,10,11 NJB). The scriptures never mention any “second person of the Trinity”, nor do they say that Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh.”
RGN – No, four times he is called “the messenger of Yahweh (your interpretation of malak against mine). Yes, we know there is no mention of the word ‘Trinity’ in the Bible. If the messenger of the Lord isn’t an angel (and he’s not), that leaves one other person, the Word (the Word is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ according to John 1:14-17). You said Jesus was the one Micah referred to, only you used a translation that fits your viewpoint. Here is another translation for Micah 5:2, ” But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, you are little to be among the clans of Judah; [yet] out of you shall One come forth for Me Who is to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. (AMPC). Yes, his goings forth have been from of old as the Messenger of the Lord. Jesus Christ is the Messenger of the Lord of the New Testament.
BA – “You believe in God, believe also in me”. The language clearly indicates that God is someone other than Jesus.
RGN – No it doesn’t. Jesus is not going to go around claiming He is God. The Jews would kill him for blashphemy (which they did anyhow). The following is from John 10:29-36.
“My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
31 Again the Jews [d]brought up stones to stone Him.
32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?
33 The Jews replied, We are not going to stone You for a good act, but for blasphemy, because You, a mere [e]Man, make Yourself [out to be] God.
34 Jesus answered, Is it not written in your Law, I said, You are gods? (anytime the word gods is not capitalized in any translation it is meant to refer to angels or men but never Elohim.
35 So men are called gods [by the Law], men to whom God’s message came—and the Scripture cannot be set aside or cancelled or broken or annulled—
36 [If that is true] do you say of the One Whom the Father consecrated and dedicated and set apart for Himself and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I am not doing the works [performing the deeds] of My Father, then do not believe Me [do not adhere to Me and trust Me and rely on Me].
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe Me or have faith in Me, [at least] believe the works and have faith in what I do, in order that you may know and understand [clearly] that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father [One with Him].
Jesus is content to call himself the Son of God. And to call the Father, God. If Jesus was the Word (and he was) and the Word was God (second Person of the Trinity) but then was incarnated into a man, then he is not only God but also the Son of God. Only God can create. A created being cannot create. God Almighty doesn’t need someone to work through. If He did, he wouldn’t be All Mighty.
BA—Yes, that is your assumption. However, in the scriptures, “the angel of Yahweh” is always identified as an angel. For example, “the angel of the LORD said, ‘LORD Almighty . . . ” (Zechariah 1:12 NIV). Obviously, “the angel of the LORD” cannot be “the LORD Almighty”.
RGN- If the correct translation of malak is “the Messenger of the LORD” where does it say he is an angel? mălʼâk, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to dispatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God.
BA—“מַלְאַ֧ךְ (mal·’aḵ). Noun – masculine singular construct. Strong’s 4397: A messenger, of God, an angel.”
You’re attempting to inject Trinitarian ideas into a plain reading of the scriptures. The fact is that “the angel of Yahweh then spoke and said, ‘Yahweh . . . ‘ . . . Yahweh then replied with kind and comforting words to the angel who was talking to me” (Zechariah 1:12,13 NJB). Yahweh is someone other than “the angel of Yahweh”.
BA – Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?” (Mark 12:26 NIV). If Jesus was “the angel of the LORD” in the burning bush, he would have said, “I said to him”, rather than “God said to him”.
RGN – Jesus is speaking in the third-person vernacular. Do you think he is going to go around saying “I did this as God” back in the good old days. The Jews would have killed him right there on the spot.
BA—No, Jesus spoke the truth. Referring to God, he went on to say, “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Mark 12:27 NIV). You’re attempting to twist the scriptures to say something they don’t say, in order to support Trinitarian ideas.
BA—Four times in this account, he is called “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7,9,10,11 NJB). The scriptures never mention any “second person of the Trinity”, nor do they say that Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh.”
RGN – No, four times he is called “the messenger of Yahweh (your interpretation of malak against mine).
BA—“Angel” means “messenger.” It’s the same thing. No difference. “Messenger of Yahweh” means he’s not Yahweh.
RGN—Yes, we know there is no mention of the word ‘Trinity’ in the Bible.
BA—Yes, and we should stick to believing in, and promoting, things that are actually IN the scriptures.
RGN— If the messenger of the Lord isn’t an angel (and he’s not),
BA—“If”???? – The problem with your interpretation is that the scriptures say he’s an angel. Every time “angel of Yahweh” is mentioned in the scriptures, he’s always identified as an angel. This is a vital point, because GOD IS NEVER CALLED AN ANGEL.
RGN—-that leaves one other person, the Word (the Word is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ according to John 1:14-17).
BA—According to Trinitarian dogma, “God the Son” is equal to “God the Father.” “The angel of Yahweh” is obviously not equal to Yahweh. “God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem” (1 Chronicles 21:15 NIV). Notice, “God” sent “the angel of Yahweh”. Later, “Yahweh felt sorry about the calamity and said to the angel who was destroying the people: ‘Enough now! Hold your hand!’ The angel of Yahweh was standing the threshing-floor of Araunah the Jebusite” (2 Samuel 24:16 NJB). These verses are not written as though there is any equality between God and the angel, as if angel was “God the Son”. Yahweh God is clearly the commander and controller over what the angel does.
RGN—You said Jesus was the one Micah referred to, only you used a translation that fits your viewpoint. Here is another translation for Micah 5:2, ” But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, you are little to be among the clans of Judah; [yet] out of you shall One come forth for Me Who is to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. (AMPC). Yes, his goings forth have been from of old as the Messenger of the Lord. Jesus Christ is the Messenger of the Lord of the New Testament.
BA—The translation you quoted of Micah 5:2 says the same thing!!! “Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. ” Jesus was definitely in existence during OT times and before, but Micah 5:2 says nothing about “his goings forth have been from of old as the Messenger of the Lord. Jesus Christ is the Messenger of the Lord of the New Testament.” You inserted a Trinitarian idea into the text.
BA – “You believe in God, believe also in me”. The language clearly indicates that God is someone other than Jesus.
RGN – No it doesn’t. Jesus is not going to go around claiming He is God. The Jews would kill him for blashphemy (which they did anyhow). The following is from John 10:29-36.
“My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
BA—They are “one” [Greek–“hen”, neuter gender], meaning “one” in unity (John 17:11,21-23), but not they are not the same person.
RGN—31 Again the Jews [d]brought up stones to stone Him.
32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?
33 The Jews replied, We are not going to stone You for a good act, but for blasphemy, because You, a mere [e]Man, make Yourself [out to be] God.
34 Jesus answered, Is it not written in your Law, I said, You are gods? (anytime the word gods is not capitalized in any translation it is meant to refer to angels or men but never Elohim.
BA—The human Israelite king is called “God” in Psalm 45:6, and he wasn’t “God the Father” or “God the Son”.
RGN—35 So men are called gods [by the Law], men to whom God’s message came—and the Scripture cannot be set aside or cancelled or broken or annulled—
36 [If that is true] do you say of the One Whom the Father consecrated and dedicated and set apart for Himself and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?
BA—That is all Jesus claimed to be; “the Son of God”, but never “God the Son”.
RGN—37 If I am not doing the works [performing the deeds] of My Father, then do not believe Me [do not adhere to Me and trust Me and rely on Me].
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe Me or have faith in Me, [at least] believe the works and have faith in what I do, in order that you may know and understand [clearly] that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father [One with Him].
Jesus is content to call himself the Son of God. And to call the Father, God.
BA—True.
RGN—If Jesus was the Word (and he was)
BA—True.
RGN—and the Word was God (second Person of the Trinity)
BA—The scriptures never mention, nor imply, any “second Person of the Trinity.”
RGN—but then was incarnated into a man, then he is not only God but also the Son of God.
BA—Jesus is “the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father”, but is not the “God” “no one has seen” (John 1:18 NASB).
RGN—Only God can create. A created being cannot create. God Almighty doesn’t need someone to work through. If He did, he wouldn’t be All Mighty.
BA—True, he doesn’t “need to”, but being Almighty, he “does whatever he pleases” (Job 23:13 NIV; Ecclesiastes 8:3 ESV).
Randy Gene Nettles is a Trinitarian. It is very awkward for Trinitarians to believe that Jesus is eternally co-equal and co-eternal with God, and yet he’s never mentioned in the Old Testament (OT), but the holy Spirit is. When we read the New Testament, however, we cannot miss the active role that Jesus plays as Savior and Head of the Church. To support their eternal Triune God dogma, Trinitarians have concocted the unscriptural idea that Jesus, as their “second person of the Trinity”, was “the angel of the LORD” who is mentioned a number of times in the OT.
This is the viewpoint that Randy Gene Nettles is arguing from, and we are defending what the scriptures actually say.
I see I got promoted to your Doctrines page, where at the end your husband says this, “We have examined this issue very carefully, and proven that Jesus was not “the Angel of the LORD” in the Old Testament.” He has only proven it to himself (and maybe you), certainly not me.
Hi can I check whatever comment posted in this blog is it immediate or subject to pending approval from the owner?
Thank you. You can check all comments, any time. I have to approve them before they are made public. Unless they are extreme, all comments are approved. However, it can sometimes take a day before I can get to it. I encourage your comments here!
That is an excellent question, thank you! Just to be clear, you are using the word “sick” in the sense of physically “sick”. First Corinthians 11:30 and James 5:14-16 use the word “sick” in the sense of spiritually “sick”. We can pray along the lines of Psalm 41:3, “Yahweh sustains him on his bed of sickness; you transform altogether the bed where he lies sick” (NJB). Our prayers for those physically sick can be that Yahweh will help them to deal with their sickness in a positive way, such as getting the proper rest and nutrition and seeking appropriate medical care, and accept what the outcome is. Also we can pray that the person’s own God-given recuperative powers will return the person to health, if it is God’s will.
Hi,
I am Phat. I am Christian. I am very fond of your siite’s name “BibleAuthenticity” because I have been seeking the truth. For me, God,s word is so miraculous! If we love God and His teachings, we have to stuydy and understand thoroughly. In Mathew 7:7-8 says: ” Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.” NASB bible.
I hope I will receive “Bible Authenticity” from your site.
Truth Seeker
Thank you for your comments expressing appreciation for God and his Word, as well as this site, which is humbly dedicated to “defending and confirming the gospel” (Philippians 1:6 NIV), “with reverence and awe” of God the Almighty (Hebrews 12:28 NIV). May God bless you in your efforts!
Hi,
I am Truth Seeker. May I have a question?
WHY HAVE CHRISTIANS NOT BEEN ABLE TO MAKE OTHERS UNDERSTAND GOD AND JESUS’ GREAT SACRIFICE FOR MANKIND IN A TRANSPARENT AND SCIENTIFIC WAY?
The Bible verse that Christians often refer to and almost always memorize is the verse in the Gospel of John, chapter 3, verse 16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (NIV). Whom does the above verse in John’s Gospel, chapter 3, verse 16 actually express God’s love for? Only for Christians? It’s not like that! Who is that for? To tell the truth, it is for all mankind! As such, every Christian should have understood thoroughly the great love and sublime sacrifice of Jesus. They must deeply feel God’s love for humanity. They must feel that they are very blessed people because of having a valuable chance to understand God and accept Jesus as the Savior of their lives. They were redeemed from their sins by God; and have always been deeply devoted to helping people awaken and receive divine salvation. But in general, why have Christians not been able to make others understand God and Jesus’ great sacrifice for mankind in a transparent and scientific way?
Truth Seeker
Thank you for your good comments and questions! Jesus advised, warned, and also predicted: “Enter through the narrow gate. for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” (Matthew 7:13,14 NIV). This is exactly how it is. Only a very few, just as Jesus accurately foretold, really want to travel the difficult “road that leads to life”. The vast majority choose to travel the easy, or perhaps the selfish, “road that leads to destruction”. Jesus, “the Word was made flesh” (John 1:14 NIV), and said, “the one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me” (John 12:45 NIV). Jesus “taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law” (Matthew 7:29 NIV). Even some who were not his disciples admitted, “No one ever spoke the way this man does” (John 7:46 NIV). Lack of belief in Jesus was widespread: “Though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” (John 1:11-13 NIV). Jesus commented: “Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me” (John 15:20,21 NIV). Since the vast majority rejected Jesus and his teachings, the vast majority, Jesus said, would reject his Christian disciples teachings as well. It’s just as the prophet said, “The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?” (Jeremiah 5:31 NIV).
GOD’S WORD IS ABSOLUTELY NEVER OUTDATED!
God is the truth. God’s word is always right. The bible is the book that is the most authentic. God’s word presents His love for the mankind. God’s word is never outdated. We, Christians believe in God and live under His teachings while being in this world. Thank God for all our lives!
“For the Lord is good and His love endures forever; His faithfulness continues through all generations” Psalm 100:5 NIV
God’s word is never outdated although we are living in the twenty-first century.
The 21st century of humanity today is an era that people reach a civilization that has made great progress in almost all fields. The science and technology that humans have achieved is a spectacular leap compared to generations not long ago. The applications of scientific and technological achievements to the present life are colorful, colorful and extremely vivid. They bring practical and extremely useful benefits to today’s young people from the perspective of studying, commuting, entertaining, working, etc.
The general life-style of the 21st century youth is trending to various pragmatic life-stles. They are living on the earth and are thinking and watching everything on earth with their pragmatic views. So it is very difficult for them to understand and be familiar to people living in a remote country and the history of their nation which happened many centuries ago. They may feel vague and unfamiliar with God’s word in the bible. This is an issue that needs to be investigated to find out why it leads to such a sad situation? At present time there are no good people? Does no one have the heart to seek the truth of salvation?
If we just stand on a subjective stance and make such a judgment, it is unfair for today’s young people. But if it is not the fault of the young generation, then where is the fault? This is a very important question! This is a problem that needs to be thoroughly investigated in order to have an effective solution to the problem. Let Christianity not continue to be thwarted, but illuminate the world with wonderful spiritual science!
God’s word is absolutely never outdated! God’s word is not as dry as dogmas of religions but it is living word of God’s. If young people can be read or listened to sermons of God’s word in a transparent and scientific style, they will understand easier and will be familiar with persons, things and places in the bible that have special deeply meanings hidden in God’s word.
GOD’S WORD IS ABSOLUTELY NEVER OUTDATED! The bible and God’s teachings should be sudied as well as preached in a transparent and scientific style, Right?
LET CHRISTIANITY NOT CONTINUE TO BE THWARTED, BUT ILLUMINATE THE WORLD WITH WONDERFUL SPIRITUAL SCIENCE!
A-MEN!
Truth Seeker
God’s Word can, and should be, taught in a way that goes deeper than religious dogmas and cliche’s, yet in a simple, but uncompromised way. Jesus taught in a simple way with clarity. We should his “example,” as we’re advised to do (1 Peter 2:21 NIV). “He taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of law” (Matthew 7:29 NIV). This is our example. Yes, it is true that “the student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master” (Matthew 10:24 NIV). However, as Jesus said, “every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old” (Matthew 13:52 NIV). We can apply this to mean that we can, and should, teach what is relevant today, what reaches people’s hearts today, including young people. We can, and should, do this while we “proclaim. to [them] the whole will of God” (Acts 20:27 NIV), without compromise. Study Bibles can be very useful in this regard. For example, the NIV Study Bible is very useful, and so is The Life Application Study Bible apparatus. There are also many others. “The grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people” (Titus 2:11 NIV), including young people. “Then young women will dance and be glad, young men and old as well. I will turn their mourning into gladness; I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow” (Jeremiah 31:13 NIV). What a celebration God promises in the future! This pictures God’s final redemption that he has in store for all who believe in him, including young people!
BECAUSE WE ARE CHRISTIANS. HALLELUJA!
We are very proud of being Christians. We are very proud of being Jesus Christ’s disciples. We are so proud of being God’s sons and daughters. Of course, we have right to perform such feelings. It’s just because of our being Christians.
We are very proud of who God is. He is the TRUTH.
We are also very proud of how God’s word is. God’s word is eternally right!
We are also very proud of the authenticity of the bible.
We are also very proud of the special character of the bible which is never eternally out-of-date.
It’s just because of our being Christians.
Are we very proud of being Christians? Oh yes! Yes, we are. Why? Because we are happy men and women among miserable people in the world. We are God’s children because of His choice. So, we have to live and do everything as good as His intending. Should we just stay in our posts motionlessly, not study and seek the wonderful truth hidden deeply in God’s word anymore but only cheer God as wildly as we can? I do not think that those things will please God, our Father.
God, our Father is a real God. We should not regard God as an imaginary god who teaches vague things that does not concern anybody or anything in the world in this 21st century. Why? Because our God is a real God. And God’s word is living word. Who can believe those things? It is us, Christians who believe those things with all our hearts! But how about the others? It is difficult for them to believe those things, I guess. But God wants them to understand all of those things so that they can receive the salvation from God. Who can help them? We, Christians, can do that, Can’t we?
Yes, we are willing to do that because we are Christians!
We just only believe by depending on the bible passively and do nothings, don’t we? Of course, not. God always wants us to be His excellent disciples, not average ones.
In John 16:12, “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.” (NIV) What can we understand what Jesus told His disciples? This sentence of Jesus’ is so important to pay attention and study carefully. Right? Let’s have a look at the sentence and seek the important meaning of Jessus’ word.
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.” The first half of the sentence says that after three years and a half teaching the disciples, Jesus had much more to say (teach) to the disciples. So, what He taught the disciples for three and a half years was not complete. It was a basic and intermediate course for the disciples. And the second half tells us that the advanced course for the disciples was unable to start because their degree of spirit was too low to understand what the Lord Jesus would teach them. That is Jesus’ word specially offering His disciples. According to the Lord Jesus’ word, we can feel that Christianity still has a lot of deep spiritual meanings.
But what are the deep spiritual meanings of God’s word?
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.” is a statement that Jesus told His disciples. But on the other hand, it is a question specially offering His disciples at that time as well as His disciples after that until forever. That is the great question that Christians should study carefully so that they can find the answer someday.
Lord’s word is absolutely an order. But His disciples did not pay attention and implement what their Lord said. So, followers after followers just read it and paid no attention to the Lord Jesus’ word, too, and then forgot it until now.
In James 2:17, we are taught like this: “In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” (NIV)
Should we obey and implement all Jesus’ orders so that we can glorify God’s Name?
Truth Seeker
WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
God is Mighty, why doesn’t He mold people to be good; it took the Old Testament period more than a thousand years; then had to bring Jesus, God-the Son, down to earth, and then be put to death by the Jews (God’s chosen people). So, what does the Old Testament mean specifically for God and for mankind?
Truth Seeker
In brief, here are some scriptures that point out what the Old Testament means for God and mankind. “For everything that was written in the past [the Old Testament] was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encourage they provide we might have hope” (Romans 15:4 NIV). “The righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify” (Romans 4:21 NIV). Jesus is “the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through him” (Acts 10:43 NIV). The Old Testament highlighted the problem of sin, and need of a solution, and predicted that God would provide that solution through the Messiah, who proved to Jesus Christ. “In the past God overlooked such ignorance” (Acts 17:30 NIV). “In his forbearance [God] had left the sins unpunished committed beforehand unpunished–he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus” (Romans 3:25,26 NIV).
HAVE THE YOUTH OF THIS 21st CENTURY BEEN REDUCING THEIR BELIEF IN GOD AND CHRISTIAN FAITH? SHOULD THIS PROBLEM BE WELL CARED FOR SERIOUSLY?
It is now alarming in many parts of the world that today’s youth take spiritual matters less seriously. They are indifferent to religion. They seem to lack respect for God and His teachings. There may be some who criticize that today’s youth are heartless. They are indifferent to everyone around them, and do not need to know anything about spirituality. They only need to know modern science and technology. They like a selfish lifestyle and worldly enjoyment. So it seems that today’s youth are perverted criminals. Were they not as kind as their ancestors were? Because they reject salvation, reject the holy, holy doctrine that comes from God, and they become perverted, hardened people? Is it reasonable for a young man to be judged like that? It seems to be a very important issue that needs to be studied very carefully, Isn’t it? In fact, they seem to have been unfairly accused by the aforementioned accusations. The Bible deals with things that take place for decades. Things happened in an unfamiliar country long ago, and seemed to have nothing to do with the present world. There is nothing to do with this youth in the 21st century. They do not feel the Bible is helpful for their work or in their present lives. Are those psychological points that need a clear analysis and find a remedy?
Truth seeker
to Truth Seeker: Yes, of course, we should “obey and implement all Jesus’ orders so we can glorify God’s name”.
BECAUSE WE ARE CHRISTIANS 01
PROBLEM 01
Let’s read Acts, paragraph 1, verse 8: “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” NIV
It is an honor to be entrusted by God with the task of being a witness for God everywhere, to the ends of the earth. But to do well in the work God has entrusted us with, it is important that we first understand God and His teachings thoroughly and thoroughly. It is an important thing that we must not take lightly, and do it in a perfunctory way. Things about the Lord and the teachings of our Lord must be thoroughly studied, and thoroughly understood. So that when we testify, we can give detailed, specific and clear explanations for those who do not know God to grasp the Way of God, which is transparent, specific and scientific, not a superstitious, ambiguous religion.
Let us follow the example of Jesus. Let us temporarily forget all about our little knowledge of God, as well as of God’s teachings in the Bible. Humble ourselves as low as we can, asking the Holy Spirit to inspire us into all truth so that we may discover the marvellous truth of Lord’s word. Do not let letters and words hinder the teaching of the Holy Spirit.
Meditate on John 16:12-13a, “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth.” NIV
Now we will not let our precious time go to waste anymore, but we will start from the first problem (01):
01. WHY SHOULD THE BIBLE HAVE TWO PARTS FOR TWO STAGES OF THE OLD AND THE NEW TESTAMENT?
WHY CAN’T GOD THE ALMIGHTY GIVE HUMANITY THE SALVATION ONLY ONE TIME COMPLETELY? WHY DID GOD WASTE OVER A THOUSAND OF YEARS FOR THE OLD TESTAMENT TIMES WITHOUT ANY RESULTS? THEN HAD TO IMPLEMENT THE SECOND PLAN OF SALVATION BY SENDING JESUS, THE ONE AND ONLY SON, DOWN TO THE WORLD IN ORDER TO PREACH THE GOSPEL OF SALVATION. BUT THAT WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL AGAIN, AND JESUS WAS KILLED BY THE JEWS, CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD AT LAST. SO WHY CAN HE BE CALLED AS THE ALMIGHTY?
That may be the question of the Gentiles, how will we explain it to them specifically?
Truth Seeker
If your question is, “Why is Jesus called ‘the Almighty’, the Biblical answer is that Jesus is never called “Almighty” in the Bible. One example which shows that Jesus is not called “Almighty” is in Revelation 21:22,23, which says, “the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple . . . “the glory of God gives it light and the Lamb is its lamp” (NIV). “The Lamb” is Jesus, of course (John 1:29; Revelation 5:12), and these verses in Revelation clearly indicate that Jesus is neither the “Almighty”, nor “God”.
Sorry to make you misunderstanding. My question is:
WHY CAN’T GOD THE ALMIGHTY GIVE HUMANITY THE SALVATION ONLY ONE TIME COMPLETELY? Why god wasted over a thousand of years for the old testament times without any results? then had to implement the second plan of sending jesus, the one and only son, down to the world in order to preach the gospel of salvation. That was not successful again, but Jesus was killed by the Jews, chosen people of god at last. SO WHY CAN HE BE CALLED AS THE ALMIGHTY?
The word “He” in the last sentence is used to replace the word “God” in the first sentence.
I am very sorry to make you misunderstand because they were so far to each other.
Almighty God has NOT “wasted” any time in implanting his plan “without any results”, as you suggest. Right from the beginning of the rebellion against him, God announced what he was going to do. Speaking to Satan the Devil, the one who made the snake appear to talk, God said, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush you in the head, and you will strike his heel” (Genesis 3:15 NIV). God’s Son, Jesus Christ, was here foretold to solve the problem of rebellion, and all of its horrific results. God’s plan proceeded exactly according to his purpose. “When the time set had fully come, god sent his Son” (Galatians 4:4 NIV). “He made known to us the mystery of his will according his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment–to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ” (Ephesians 1:9,10 NIV). The brilliant success of Christ’s mission to earth is thus summarized, “God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having cancelled the charge of our indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross” (Colossians 2:13-15 NIV).
BECAUSE WE ARE CHRISTIANS 02
PROBLEM 02
As we know, the bible consists of two parts: The Old Testament and The New Testament. The bible of Christianity has sixty-six books. The Old Testament has thirty-nine books and the New Testament has twenty-seven books.
There are a large number of people in the world just use the Old Testament bible. But there are also another large number of people in the world just want to us the New Testament bible.
The bible is the basic but so important element in Christianity. So, before presenting the bible to the gentiles, we have to master special characteristics of the bible. We should know:
The bible is the most authentic book in the world.
The bible contains living words of God.
But the important things that we have to study carefully and be able to give clear, correct answers to the following questions:
1) WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT BIBLE? IS IT NECESSARY FOR CHRISTIANS TO STUDY SO THAT THEY CAN RECEIVE THE SALVATION? DOES THE OLD HISTORY OF ISRAEL CONCERN THE YOUTH IN THIS CENTURY?
2) WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE NEW TESTAMENT BIBLE? THE MAIN LESSON IN THE NEW TESTAMENT BIBLE IS “JESUS CHRIST”! WHAT IS THE LESSON LIKE? WHAT IS THE SPECIAL MEANING OF JESUS – GOD THE SON?
Those may be the questions of the Gentiles. How will we explain them to the gentiles specifically?
Truth Seeker
Answers: (1) One of the main purposes of the Old Testament, tom point to Christ, is made known in Acts 13:43, “All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name” (NIV).
Thank you for your answering Question 1
Do you think it is a very important question that need a lot of time to think over it? For me, I think it so important that we have to do our best to study it more carefully. We have to read it as many time as we can until the Holy Spirit make us understand the truth intuitionally.
The Old Testament bible is not a book of hitory which make new believers feel confused and unpleasant. It is a book of God and His teachings.
The Old Testament bible presents who God is? What He is like? and His actions among the mankind.
So, let’s offer God our time to study The Old Testament bible again but this time we will study it more carefully than we used to do it before. We don’ t know how long will it take but we will make every effort to seek God’s will.
After that, let’s study some important items of The Old Testament bible carefully, one by one and present each of the following ones:
1) WHO GOD IS?
2) WHAT IS HE LIKE?
3) WHAT ARE HIS ACTIONS AMONG THE MANKIND?
The questions above are so important for people to understand God and His actions. So we should not be in a hurry and give hasty responses to the questions without studying them carefully.
Please God be with us and lead us to the perfect truth of the great lesson of the OldTestament. Will God teach us how to prove His word (Christianity) in a scientific fashion. Please teach us how to demean ourselves so that we will be able to receive the truth from the Holy Spirit. Thank You, God!
In Jesus’ name A-MEN!
Yes, it is true that the Old Testament does present God as he truthfully is! For example, it says, “He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he” (Deuteronomy 32:4 NIV). “The LORD [Yahweh], the LORD [Yahweh], the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished” (Exodus 34:6,7 NIV). “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. and what does the LORD [Yahweh] require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8 NIV).
Answers: (2) The New Testament lesson is: “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16 NIV). “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them” (John 3:36 NIV). “These have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (John 20:31 NIV). The New Testament teaches us to live by “faith in the Son of God” (Galatians 2:20 NIV). “Faith” is belief in action. Jesus is never called “God the son” in the Bible. Such a teaching is actually false doctrine. Jesus is called “the Son of God” and “God’s Son”many times. For example, Jesus said, “I am God’s Son” (John 10:36 NIV).
Thank God! Thank you for your answering my question. I agree with all things in your response. But please do not stop here because those are just around the departure. So, let’s go ahead! We should ask the Holy Spirit to lead us to the destination. A-MEN! The Holy Spirit wants us to start from the beginning. And we should study the following verses very carefully, one by one. We should spend a lot of time to think over every verse so that we can understand the deep meaning hidden in God’s word. We should not conclude God’s word before the Holy Spirit give us perfect explanation. Now, let’s go!
IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. HE WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING.
(JOHN 1:1-2 NIV). WHAT DOES IT MEAN? WHAT WILL WE FIND IF WE THINK OVER IT?
THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND MADE HIS DWELLING AMONG US. WE HAVE SEEN HIS GLORY, THE GLORY OF THE ONE AND ONLY SON, WHO CAME FROM THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH. (JOHN 1:14 NIV). WHAT DOES IT MEAN? WHAT WILL WE FIND IF WE THINK OVER IT?
AND JESUS GREW IN WISDOM AND STATURE, AND IN FAVOR WITH GOD AND MAN. (LUKE 2:52 NIV). WHAT DOES IT MEAN? WHAT WILL WE FIND IF WE THINK OVER IT?
MARK 14: 32-40 (Gethsemane)
32They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.”
33He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34“My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death, ”he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.”
35Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36“Abba, Father, ”he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
37Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon, ”he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Couldn’t you keep watch for one hour?38Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
39Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN? WHAT WILL WE FIND IF WE THINK OVER IT?
There is no hurry. Please ask the Holy Spirit to be with you, then read each verse and think over it carefully as many times as you can until you receive the perfect explanation from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will lead us to the perfect truth of God’s word, won’t He? So, the best way to understand God’s word is to put our knowledge of the bible by. Let the Holy Spirit lead us to all the truth. Thank to the Holy Spirit, we will understand the great lesson about Jesus as an invaluable gift for the mankind.
This problem (The lesson of the New Testament) is the most important for Christianity as well as for someone who has been seeking for the truth almost all his/her life. So, will you please lay by part of your valuable time for examining the great lesson of the New Testament more carefully. The Holy Spirit will give us a perfect answer beyond our limited knowledge. That will be a valuable award from God offering faithful disciples, isn’t that?
Please God be with us and lead us to the perfect truth of the great lesson of the New Testament. Will God teach us how to prove His word (Christianity) in a scientific fashion. Please teach us how to demean ourselves so that we will be able to receive the truth from the Holy Spirit. Thank You, God!
In Jesus’ name A-MEN!
Explanations of the scriptures you quoted: John 1:1,2—Jesus, “the Word”, “was with God in the beginning”. Since Almighty “God” Yahweh is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalm 90:2 NIV), and had no beginning, what beginning is John 1:1,2 referring to? It must be Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. Jesus “was with God” in this beginning of the creation of the universe and all that is in it. In fact, Almighty God spoke to Jesus in Genesis 1:26, when he said, “Let us make mankind in our image” (NIV). Jesus, the Word, obviously existed prior to “the beginning” referred to in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1,2. Jesus, apparently speaking as wisdom personified in Proverbs 8:22 says “Yahweh created me, the first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works” (NJB). Almighty God created Jesus first, before anything else, “the firstborn of every creature”, “the Beginning of the creation of God” (Colossians 1:15 KJV; Revelation 3:14 NASB). While Jesus is called “God” in John 1:1, he is not Almighty God. Why not? Because “no one has seen God at any time”, that is, the Almighty God. However, lots and lots of people saw “the Word” who “became flesh”, Jesus (John 1:14). Jesus is “the only begotten God Who is in the bosom of the Father” (John 1:18 NASB). “Only begotten” also means that Jesus was created by his “Father”.
Luke 2:52 means that Jesus is not Almighty God, because it says that “Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” (NIV). Growing in wisdom and favor with God makes it obvious that Jesus could not be God. God is a different person, one that Jesus grew in wisdom and favor with. When Jesus said, “‘Abba, Father . . . everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will'” (Mark 14:36 NIV). Jesus here admits that “with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26 NIV), but not with himself, so he cannot be God. Jesus also shows that, even though his “will” is different from his Father’s “will”, he submits to his Father’s “will”. This not only gives evidence that Jesus is not Almighty God, he is not even equal to his Father. Jesus admitted, “my Father . . . is greater than all”, and “the Father is greater than I” (John 10:29; 14:28 NIV).
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching” (2 Timothy 3:16 NIV). “Prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21 NIV). Almighty God inspired the writing of his word, the holy Bible, by means of his holy spirit. Just as “no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things” (2 Peter 1:20 NIV), we must “hold firmly to the word of life” “that [our] love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that [we] may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ” (Philippians 2:15; 1:9,10 NIV). God’s holy spirit will never contradict the written word of God. We need to be very careful to “trust in the LORD [Yahweh] with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding” (Proverbs 3:6 NIV), so that we do not let go and just assume that the holy spirit is guiding our understanding. We should follow the example of “the Berean Jews” who “received the message with great eagerness and EXAMINED THE SCRIPTURES every day to see if what Paul said is true” (Acts 17:11 NIV).
I appreciated your article “The Septuagint Use in the New Testament”. However, I wish you had provided references as examples for all the points you made. I would like to examine these instances more closely because I believe the could shed light on the translation controversies over modern translations vs the KJV.
Thank you for your inquiry. To get more documentation, etc., about the Septuagint, you may want to purchase “A New Translation of the Septuagint” (NETS), published in 2007, which has a very interesting preface and explanation of the Septuagint and its history called “To the Reader of NETS.” Also, Wikipedia has an interesting and informative article about the Septuagint, with many sources listed.
1) Is Jesus the actual “son” of God, or is the term “son of God” used metaphorically as a title? How would we know?
2) Can Christians pray to Jesus? Is Jesus an intercessor? Did early Christians use Jesus to intercede to God?
Thank you for visiting this site, and for you questions. Yes, Jesus is the actual Son of God, not physically, but in the sense that his Father created him. The way that we know these things is from what the Bible says. Jesus said that God’s “word is truth”. (John 17:17). “God is not a human” (Numbers 23:19 NIV). Rather, “God is spirit” (John 4:24 NIV). Jesus is referred to as “the firstborn of all creation” (Colossians 1:15 KJV). His Father “Yahweh” is said by Jesus, speaking as wisdom personified, to have “created” him “first”, “before the oldest of his works” (Proverbs 8:22 NJB). The Bible says that Jesus’ “origins are from of old, from ancient times” (Micah 5:2 NIV). After Jesus had lived with his Father in heaven for unknown eons of time, “when the time set had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman”, named “Mary”, who was told by God’s “angel”, “you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High” (Galatians 4:4 NIV; Luke 1:30-32 NIV).
Regarding prayer, Jesus said, “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven” (Matthew 6:9 NIV). Prayers should be directed to God the Father, not to Jesus. Jesus prayed to his Father. For example, “I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth” (Matthew 11:25). “Father, glorify your name” (John 11:25 NIV). Early Christians did this.The apostle Paul said, “I kneel before there Father” (Ephesians 3:14 NIV). Jesus is our one and only intercessor with his Father, Almighty God. “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”. “I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father will be glorified in the Son” (John 14:6,13 NIV). This is what early Christians did. “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow . . . and every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:10,11 NIV). The acceptable way to pray is to pray to the Father in Jesus’ name. Early Christians used Jesus to intercede with God. “I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father–Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:1,2 NIV).
Thanks.
How can we be sure that Jesus, in being called the son of God, wasn’t a “son of God” in the same sense as the OT describes in various places?https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Sons-Of-God.
What does it mean to be the actual son of God, but not physically? Are not those mentioned in the Old Testament also actual + non-physical sons of God?
Does Jesus being the actual son of God imply he has divine attributes (i.e. he is not just a regular man), and, if so, did the apostles or earliest Christians attest to this?
How do you interpret and justify the various signs of worship followers or strangers bestow upon Jesus in the Gospel according to Matthew for example?
What is the meaning of the usage of the term “Lord” with reference to Jesus?
What does it mean to “pray in Jesus’ name”? Is this not idolatry? (According to Jews, I believe it is idolatry.)
Thanks for your time.
Note: Idolatry may be the wrong term, but this is what I am trying to refer to:
There is evidence of a Jewish belief in intercession, both in the form of the paternal blessings passed down from Abraham to his children, and 2 Maccabees, where Judas Maccabaeus sees the dead Onias and Jeremiah giving blessing to the Jewish army. In ancient Judaism, it was also popular to pray for intercession from Michael in spite of the rabbinical prohibition against appealing to angels as intermediaries between God and his people. There were two prayers written beseeching him as the prince of mercy to intercede in favor of Israel: one composed by Eliezer ha-Kalir, and the other by Judah ben Samuel he-Hasid.[33] Those who oppose this practice feel that to God alone may prayers be offered.[citation needed]
In modern times, one of the greatest divisions in Jewish theology (hashkafa) is over the issue of whether one can beseech the help of a tzadik – an extremely righteous individual. The main conflict is over a practice of beseeching a tzadik who has already died to make intercession before the Almighty.[34] This practice is common mainly among Chasidic Jews, but also found in varying degrees among other usually Chareidi communities. It strongest opposition is found largely among sectors of Modern Orthodox Judaism, Dor Daim and Talmide haRambam, and among aspects of the Litvish Chareidi community. Those who oppose this practice usually do so over the problem of idolatry, as Jewish Law strictly prohibits making use of a mediator (melitz) or agent (sarsur) between oneself and the Almighty.[citation needed]
The perspectives of those Jewish groups opposed to the use of intercessors is usually softer in regard to beseeching the Almighty alone merely in the “merit” (tzechut) of a tzadik.
Those Jews who support the use of intercessors claim that their beseeching of the tzadik is not prayer or worship, or alternatively that they are still praying to God and through God, but secondarily communicating with the tzadik. The conflict between the groups is essentially over what constitutes prayer, worship, a mediator (melitz), and an agent (sarsur).
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints#Parallels_in_other_religions
Any writings outside the 66 book Bible canon (Genesis to Revelation) are not “inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16), and therefore not authoritative. “There is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself asa ransom for all people” (1 Timothy 2:5,6 NIV).
Here are some differences in Jesus being “the Son of God” (Mark 1:1), and other “sons of God” (Job 38:4) referred to in the Bible. Jesus is “the Messiah”, “and that by believing you may have life in his name” (Mark 1:1; John 20:31 NIV). “He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made” (John 1:2,3 NIV). “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood” (Romans 3:25 NIV). These factors are not true regarding the other “sons of God”, making Jesus the unique, special “Son of God. “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16 NKJV). “God has sent His only begotten Son into the world that we might live through Him” (1 John 4:9 NKJV). Being “the only begotten” means that Jesus was the only direct creation of God. Everything else was created through Jesus. Jesus is the only one to die for our sins. These are some factors that make him unique. God uniquely said regarding Jesus, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!” (Matthew 17:5 NIV). Since we’re told by God to listen to Jesus, and Jesus said we should pray to God in his name (John 14:6,13), praying to God in Jesus’ name is not idolatry.
The apostle Matthew records, “the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law” (Mathew 7:28,29 NIV). The apostle John records, “No one ever spoke the way this man does” (John 7:46 NIV). Jesus is also unique in that, “as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of God” (John 5:26,27 NIV). So, yes, Jesus has divine attributes. He was not ‘just a man’.
Regarding worship, Jesus said, “the true worshippers will worship the Father” (John 4:23), not Jesus. References to worshipping Jesus are a mistranslation, in some translations, of the Greek word “proskyneo”, which basically means “to bow down to”, “do homage to”. Properly translated those verses in Matthew read as follows. “They knelt down and paid him homage” (Matthew 2:11 NRSV). Those who were in the boat did him homage, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God'” (Matthew 14:33 NAB). “They approached, embraced his feet, and did him homage” (Matthew 28:9 NAB). “When they saw him, they fell down before his feet, though some hesitated” (Matthew 28:17 NJB).
“Lord” means “master”, and there are “many lords” in the world, but for Christians, in a special sense, “there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 8:5,6 NIV), who is uniquely our master.
Thanks.
I’m sure you can see your reasoning is a bit circular. “This is what we do because it says it’s what we do.” If Jews are to be convinced and saved, they would need evidence that they can in fact pray through a divine being/man to God, which would be unconvincing to them based on the OT.
Aside from that, what about the evidence that some of these books of the NT may not be written by apostles? Namely, Hebrews and Revelation stand out as one where the author isn’t known. The claim is that there is an apostolic connection there to Peter and John, but the evidence disagrees. You’re now going to accept it because a decision was made by a man centuries ago? This is precisely the sort of dogmatic-unquestioning thinking I believe you claim to be against when it comes to organized churches, and yet you are participating in it yourself. Just some food for thought.
Why would Jesus be the creator of everything and how does that fix anything? If anything, this makes things more confusing, because there is no mention of Jesus “as a creator” in the OT? It simply says, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Saying things were “created through him / in him” does not simplify this.
Thank you.
just to give a more concrete example
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. (NWT)
This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser,
Who formed you since you were in the womb:
“I am Jehovah, who made everything.
I stretched out the heavens by myself,
And I spread out the earth.
Who was with me? (NWT Isaiah 44:24)
He spreads out the heavens by himself,
And he treads upon the high waves of the sea. (NWT Job 9:8)
“You alone are Jehovah; you made the heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens and all their army, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. And you preserve all of them alive, and the army of the heavens are bowing down to you. (NWT Neh 9:6)
I know you are not JW, but I provided NWT in case anyone would complain about translation.
How is this not a contradiction? Nowhere in the OT does it say anything was created *through* anyone else, i.e. Jesus, let alone that Jesus created things. It simply says God ALONE created creation and sustained creation. I suspect you may answer by saying “we start at the NT first and work backwards”, but this does not change the fact that the entire book needs to be consistent. The OT cannot contradict the NT. I also suspect you will also say “through” does not mean Jesus created. This appears to be twisting of words, exactly what you accuse other Christians of doing.
Thank you.
The NT completes the written revelation of God that was begun in the OT. For example, the fulfillments of the OT prophecies of the Messiah, the Suffering Servant, the Prophet, etc., were recorded in the NT (Deuteronomy 18:15-18; Isaiah 11; 35; 42; 49; 53).
Luke wrote Luke and Acts, but he was not an apostle. Hebrews was written by Paul. It has Paul’s signature conclusion, which is the same phrase that all his other 13 letters have. “Grace be with you all” (Hebrews 13:25 NIV). The apostle John states that he was the writer of Revelation (Revelation 1:9). The early church viewed him as its writer.
The Holy Spirit inspired the writing of both the OT and NT, and the Holy Spirit confirmed to the church that the 27 books of the NT were authoritative (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20,21). These 27 books were all written in the 1st century CE, and viewed by the Church as authoritative before the end of the 1st century. The later Councils that identified which books were part of the NT were simply recognizing what had been evident since the end of the 1st century.
The NT recognizes “the Lord God Almighty” as the one who “created all things” (Revelation 4:8,11). Jesus is never identified as being the creator in the NT. Rather, “through the Son he [“God”] created the universe” (Hebrews 1:1,2 NLT). “Through him [“the Son”] God created the universe” (Colossians 1:15,16 NLT).
>It has Paul’s signature conclusion, which is the same phrase that all his other 13 letters have.
This doesn’t imply someone else couldn’t have written it, as some scholars think.
>It has Paul’s signature conclusion, which is the same phrase that all his other 13 letters have.
Circular reasoning. I could write a book under a different person’s name. It would not imply it were true. There is no way to verify.
>The early church viewed him as its writer.
And? Does this mean that they were right? This does not follow.
> These 27 books were all written in the 1st century CE,
This is disputed by some, namely, Bart Ehrman and Stephen Harris.
>viewed by the Church as authoritative before the end of the 1st century.
Who constitutes “the Church” here? Which Church? Where is the evidence for this claim?
>2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20-21
These passages say nothing about 27 books. It simply says all scripture is inspired. This by itself doesn’t make sense, since some scripture is clearly not believed to be inspired by Christians, so I’m not sure why you quoted this. Additionally, this is still a decision on the part of man to decide that these books were indeed inspired. Also, there is dispute over whether they were written before the 1st century by some. There isn’t even evidence of the complete list until hundreds of years later.
>Jesus is never identified as being the creator in the NT. Rather, “through the Son he [“God”] created the universe”
He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. (John 1:10, NLT)
It says there Jesus came into the world “he created”. Note, it does not say Jesus came into the world he created via God’s help, nor does it say he came into the world which was created through him via God. The term “through Jesus” also has not been defined and is quite vague, leaving open room for interpretation. Additionally, the OT makes it clear on several occasions that God was alone in creation.
Thanks.
Looks translating John 1:10 may vary by site but the one I provided was one of them
However the overall point remains for that which is
Through Jesus and to Create through Jesus is vague and not well defined
The Old Testament speaks and emphasizes that god was alone in creation. Alone means alone as I suspect you will change the meaning of alone to mean alone in power. If Jesus was with god then why would god emphasize he was alone. If Jesus were there why the emphasis that god was doing things by himself and not through Jesus
Isaiah 44:6-23 contrasts false idol gods with “the LORD [Yahweh] Almighty” (Isaiah 44:6 NIV). In Isaiah 44:24 he says, “I am the LORD [Yahweh], the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself” (NIV). False gods were not viewed by their believers and worshippers as being Almighty, or as creating alone. Rather, pagans believed in multiple gods, who cooperated and competed in making things, none of which were from nothing, in contrast to Yahweh, who is alone the Creator, creating the universe. In stark contrast to pagan gods, “by faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what is visible” (Hebrews 11:3 NIV).
Jesus, as wisdom personified, says, “Then I was beside Him, as a master workman” (Proverbs 8:30 NASB). Jesus worked under his Father’s direction, Thus, the “Son” is the one “through whom also he {“God”] made the universe” (Hebrews 1:1,2 NIV). But this doesn’t make make Jesus a co-creator, or equal to his Father.
Yes, indeed, “the Lord God Almighty . . . created all things” (Revelation 4:8,11 NIV). He is the one and only Creator. But he created everything through his “master workman” (Proverbs 8:30 NASB), “through whom all things were made” (John 1:2 NIV). Jesus said “the Son can do nothing by himself; he can only do what he sees his Father doing; because whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19 NIV).
The NLT rendering of John 1:10 is not accurate, but reflects Trinitarian bias. Accurately rendered, it reads: “He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him” (John 1:10 NIV).
Please read carefully the “New Testament Canon” articles on this site under “Categories”. Evidence is provided proving the very early existence of the NT Canon.
>Please read carefully the “New Testament Canon” articles on this site under “Categories”. Evidence is provided proving the very early existence of the NT Canon.
Your articles do not stand as proof. This would not pass logic and argumentation 101. You start with the premises that the Bible we have today must be the inerrant inspired word of God and work backwards from there using the Bible itself to prove the conclusion you already set out with. This is flat-out intellectually dishonest. Again, you did not at all address the points about the human choice aspect, i.e. that it was a choice on the part of men, thousands of years ago, to include and not include books. We have no way of knowing that they made mistakes. Furthermore, the evidence we do have suggests that these absolutely could have been mistakes because of false claims to authorship, forgeries, etc. Additionally, the books having been written in the first century have no bearing on whether or not they are indeed true or divinely inspired. You are jumping around and deflecting points by cobbling together quotes from scripture.
> in contrast to Yahweh, who is alone the Creator, creating the universe
Here we go. First, you say Yahweh is alone. Then, you say “Actually, but wait he wasn’t! Jesus was there! But that doesn’t count as God not being alone!”. This is dishonest. The OT says clearly God was alone.
>Proverbs 8
So, when other groups of Christians twist verses out of context to fit their conclusions, it is a no-no, but you’re allowed to? The wisdom referred to here is in the feminine form. The book itself is highly metaphorical. You argue yourself in other instances that a certain passage is being metaphorical (e.g. Jesus didn’t LITERALLY mean his flesh and blood in the covenant) and yet here you are literally interpreting Wisdom (again, in the feminine form) and equating it with Jesus. How convenient.
As it stands, Proverbs 8 does not stand as conclusive evidence. There are too many other instances of God stating he was alone. Alone means alone. Again, you don’t get to change the meaning of alone to fit your conclusion.
Finally, through still has not been defined. It is not even clear what this means. Jesus was a worker? So, he created things or he didn’t? Why was God repeatedly saying he was alone then if Jesus was there with God?
>The NLT rendering of John 1:10 is not accurate, but reflects Trinitarian bias.
Says who? You? I cannot be certain but I have read enough of your stuff to conclude that you do not have a command of the original languages of the Bible. Who’s to say your translation does not reflect a unitarian bias?
My point was not to argue one way or another, but simply to show you, you are doing exactly the things which you accuse the “other side” of doing. You mish-mash verses, twist things out of context, and start from a conclusion rather than deriving it. This is flat out wrong.
No need to reply, I believe I have heard and seen enough to conclude you are not arguing in good faith, or you are simply deluded beyond saving or recognition. Best of luck.
Thank you for your love and guidance regarding God’s teachings. I love you, Your Wife
Thank you for your loving interest in God’s Word, the Bible. Love to share it with everyone, but especially with you. Love you from the heart!
you need to see Sam Shamoun’s work or others like him. he may clear up misconceptions about the trinity for you. i understand your beliefs are essentially Jehovah Witness without the added watchtower stuff
here is his site: https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com
keep an open heart and mind. peace and blessings.
**i am not interested in a conversation, i’ve read your blog, i simply implore you to do further research**
Thank you for your interest, and visiting this site. Beliefs expressed here are based entirely on the 66 books of God’s Word, the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. We always keep an “open mind” regarding all truths based on this source.
True beliefs are held by religions which also have false beliefs. For example, we believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and died for the sins of humankind. Catholics also believe this. This fact doesn’t make us Catholics. Similarly, Jehovah’s Witnesses have similar beliefs to ours about Almighty God and the Trinity doctrine, but that doesn’t make us Jehovah’s Witnesses. As you can see on this site, Jehovah’s Witnesses, have been false prophets regarding predicting dates for the end of the world. “If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed” (Deuteronomy 18:22 NIV).
Regarding the Trinity doctrine, we have extensively researched this issue for decades. Our position here is the same as 1 Corinthians 4:6, “You should learn from us not to go beyond what is written in Scripture” (GWT). But the Trinity doctrine does exactly what the scripture says not to do, ‘going beyond what is written in scripture.’ Even worse, the doctrine contradicts the scriptures. “The Scripture cannot be disregarded” (ISV). The Trinity doctrine is composed of “man-made ideas” which “cancel the word of God” (Mark 7:7,13 NLT).
Christians are commanded “not to teach false doctrines” (1 Timothy 1:3 NIV). As you can see, this site has a number of articles which document and detail exactly why the Trinity doctrine is an unscriptural, “false doctrine”, and should be rejected!
I simply implore you to investigate the issue further, because there are some major claims made by figures like Shamoun which JW have not been able to answer. I only brought up JW because I understand you don’t subscribe to the trinity as they do not also. So, the arguments you make are akin to the arguments JW make.
The arguments made by Shamoun are made strictly from Scripture; I will assume you haven’t even perused the site. There are even atheist scholars (who have no dog in the fight) that subscribe to the idea that Jesus was equated with God. So, I simply say, use the site and use the search bar there. Investigate further, considering the Bible in its entirety. I know you would say the same to Trinitarians. That is fine! I simply ask you don’t ignore the message and assume you’ve settled it. I say this kindly: the one who assumes he has nothing to learn is a fool.
You really need to investigate the arguments. The treatment of Jesus in the Gospels and even the Letters would not make sense in a context for monotheistic Jews. From Paul to James (yes, even James!), the treatment or elevation of Jesus to such a position would amount to idolatry. Which is why the Jews are constantly rebuking Jesus for certain statements. The Book of Revelation points to this as well. Jesus is treated only in ways YHWH of the Old Testament would have been treated. No, the original Greek does not help you either. These arguments have been investigated as well. The Bible needs to be consistent in its entire context from Old to New. If you’re clinging to the “exact words fallacy” that the term Trinity is not mentioned, you are ignoring the fact that Jesus often never gave direct answers. Even YHWH of the OT when giving his “name” to Moses answers him indirectly! As a side note, it is odd how you chop up Bible verses to complete your sentences, taking the verses out of context. Anyways, I should go. Hopefully you keep an open mind. If anything, you should be inspired to spread your Gospel if it is indeed true, so that Trinitarians like myself are not damned to hellfire preaching a false Gospel. Peace!
Reading the above comments, as for Proverbs 8 referring to Jesus, this is a common JW argument, but it ignores the fact that other “attributes” of God are also personified. In some sense, yes, Jesus is wise/wisdom, but it ignores the other examples of personification. Another example of cherrypicking. An example would be “Folly” which appears alongside Wisdom.
We’ve looked at the Trinity posts on Shamoun’s site, and we’ve seen these all arguments before. He makes many assertions, citing and quoting scriptures, but never providing any scriptures that actually prove the Trinity doctrine true. Bold assertions don’t cut it!
You also have made a number of assertions in support of the Trinity doctrine, without any scriptural proof.
When Jesus was falsely accused of claiming to “be God” (John 10:33 NIV), he refuted it by making plain that, “I said, ‘I am God’s Son'” (John 10:36 NIV), not God. In Revelation, he says, “I was dead”, is presented as “the Lamb”, who “had been slain” (Revelation 1:18; 5:6 NIV). “The Lamb” is shown to be someone other than “God Almighty” (Revelation 21:22). However, “God . . . will never die” (Habakkuk 1:12 NIV). Thus, the Bible proves that Jesus is not Almighty God, Yahweh, who “will never die”.
The God of the Jews, “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus” (Acts 3:13 NIV). The Bible not only proves that Jesus is not God Almighty Yahweh, but he is not even equal to him, in contradiction to the Trinity doctrine.
Please thoroughly study the first article on this site featuring the gospel of John, and the issue, “Is Jesus Christ God Almighty, or Part of a Trinity?”.
… John 10:39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
haha clearly they didn’t think his answer was convincing, and still thought he was blaspheming… this is why you are an out of context guy
To be honest, I don’t have the time to keep going back and forth, but your arguments are not very convincing and can be explained away.
I think the best thing you can do is try to message Sam directly, either on Skype via benny_malik3, streamyard when he’s online YouTube, or the contact form on his site. Again, you kind of ignored the fact that if you really believe we are corrupting the Gospels, you have a duty and obligation to correct and spread that word. No better way than getting on a call with Sam. Just hiding on your website isn’t enough because your site simply doesn’t receive enough traffic. Going back and forth over a comments section simply won’t cut it out. Peace.
So Jesus’ rejection of his enemies’ false accusation means nothing to you? Jesus’ bold admission that, “I said, ‘I am the Son of God'” (John 10:36 NIV), means nothing to you? You agree with Jesus’ enemies false accusation that he, “a mere man, claim to be God”? (John 10:33 NIV). Even this doesn’t agree with the Trinity doctrine, because it says Jesus is only “a mere man”. In contrast, the Trinity doctrine says that Jesus was a “God-man” on earth. This is just another example of the fact that the Bible nowhere gives any support whatsoever to the Trinity.
“They didn’t think his answer was convincing”, you assert. The issue his enemies raised was not, “Are you God?”, but rather, “If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly”. What did Jesus say in response? “I did tell you, but you do not believe . . . you do not believe because you are none of my sheep . . . My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all” (John 10:24-26,29 NIV). Here we have a clear refutation of the Trinity doctrine of supposed equality of the three members of the Trinity. Jesus is saying that his “Father is greater than all”, including Jesus. The Bible, especially John, repeatedly refutes the Trinity doctrine.
John 10:39 says “they tried to seize him”, but nothing about Jesus supposedly blaspheming or claiming he was God. During a previous encounter with his enemies, Jesus said, “You looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God” (John 8:40 NIV), but nothing about him claiming to be God, in fact, admits here that he is not God, by saying he heard the truth form God. In fact, the Bible says that “God is not a man” (Numbers 23:19), but Jesus says he was “a man”.
There is no doubt that the Bible nowhere supports the Trinity, or any other, “false doctrine” (1 Timothy 1:3,4 NIV), so we feel no need to contact your Trinitarian “expert”, “Sam”. But you feel free to reach out to him and and recommend that he visit this site, study the Trinity articles on here, and make comments.
@y
In contrast, the Trinity doctrine says that Jesus was a “God-man” on earth. This is just another example of the fact that the Bible nowhere gives any support whatsoever to the Trinity.
You do not understand the Trinity. Jesus is still the son of God in the Trinity. This is called straw manning. You do not even fully understand the position you are attacking.
John 10:29
Bible butcher you are. https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2022/07/16/thomas-aquinas-exegesis-of-john-1029-vindicated/
In fact, the Bible says that “God is not a man” (Numbers 23:19), but Jesus says he was “a man”.
The Trinity does not claim God was a man but that he chose to became man. It is almost laughable how little you know about the Trinity.
But you feel free to reach out to him and and recommend that he visit this site, study the Trinity articles on here, and make comments.
Hahaha so you do little to no effort in actually researching the Trinity, and you expect me to drive traffic to this site? No thank you. You can sit in the graveyard that is this site. I will not be doing your job for you. Like I said, we’re commanded to preach the Gospels, no? So, it’s your duty to go out and correct brothers and sisters, especially if one (me) is asking you to do so. Again, if you want to be lazy and sit back on this site, I can do nothing for you. I will NOT be driving traffic to your site for free! Hahahaha that was a good one.
Yes, we know very well that in the Trinity doctrine Jesus is the Son of God, but he’s also God, and equal to God the Father, according to the dogma. Trinitarians, like yourself, ignore the fact that John 10:29 says that “the Father is greater than all”, because Jesus’ words contradict the Trinity.
Trinitarians likewise ignore Hebrews 2:17, “For this reason he had to MADE like them, FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest IN SERVICE TO GOD, and he might make atonement for the people” (NIV). Jesus was ‘made to be fully human in every way’, “in service to God”, and to “make atonement for the people”, three reasons he cannot be God.
We’ve been very familiar with and studied the Trinity doctrine in the light of God’s Word, the Bible, and had many discussions with Trinitarians for decades. We’ve seen the same claims about the dogma that your “expert”, Sam, has on his blog.
The Bible says to “test them all; hold on to what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21 NIV), and “do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1 NIV). Applying these principles to the Trinity reveals that the doctrine is a “false doctrine” (1 Timothy 1:3,4 NIV).
Please study the first article on this site.
1) The NIV (not inspired version) is a terrible modern translation which adds a lot or changes much of the text in an attempt to modernize and make the Bible more readable.
2) Trinitarians don’t ignore that passage from Hebrews. In fact, it fully agrees with the Trinitarian position.
All of this just tells me you’re either being dishonest or extremely lazy. You are currently “straw-manning” the Trinitarian position.
I’m still laughing at the idea that I was supposed to do your job for you to bring people to this site. If you want to be lazy, be my guest, but that’s something you’ll have to answer for before the Lord. Alright, peace.
The original 66 Bible books were all “inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16). However, no copies, or translations, of them are “inspired by God”, not even the King James Version (KJV). You sound like you may be a “KJV Only” believer, who believes somehow that the KJV was “inspired by God” in a manner similar to the original writings of the Bible. It is true that the NIV is not “inspired by God” either, and is not a perfect translation. It has some flaws, but so do all other translations, including the KJV. We generally use the NIV because it is a very good translation overall, but we also use a number of other translations, where they are more accurate than the NIV.
The Hebrew-Aramaic (Old Testament, or OT) Scriptures were very readable to the ancient Jews. When many Jews began to speak Greek, the OT was translated into Greek. This translation became known as the Greek Septuagint Version (LXX). Even though the LXX was not “inspired by God”, most of the quotes of the OT in the New Testament (NT) are from the LXX. The NT was written in Koine’ Greek, the international language of the day, and was very readable to people in the Roman Empire back then. By commanding that the Gospel be preached and taught to “all nations” (Matthew 28:19,20), Jesus was certainly authorizing the use of many translations of the Scriptures.
The Greek text that the KJV NT was based on was composed from only a few Greek manuscripts, none earlier than the 10th century, and it has many errors. By contrast, modern translations, such as the NIV, are translated from a Greek text that has been composed from about 5,800 Greek manuscripts, some which are as early as the 2nd century, so they are much more accurate than the KJV. Also, the KJV uses archaic English, which is difficult for most modern readers to understand, adding a needless obstacle to understanding the Bible. Using modern, understandable English, modern translations such as the NIV, make the Bible more readable and understandable, and at the same time, are more accurate, that is, closer to the original Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek than the KJV.
No, Trinitarians do not agree with Hebrews 2:17. Their dogma contradicts it. By claiming that Jesus was “God-man”, they deny that Jesus was “fully human in every way”. He could not be both God, and “fully human in every way”. He is our “high priest in service to God”. He could not be God and serve God at the same time. Jesus ‘made atonement for our sins’ by dying (1 Corinthians 15:3; Revelation 1:18). Since God cannot die (Habakkuk 1:12), Jesus cannot be God.
—66 books of the Bible.
This is the same list compiled and preserved by people who do not agree with your heretical views. Yet another instance to show your inconsistency. So the people who compiled the lists and books were inspired enough to get the correct list, but not enough to have the correct view of Christianity? Interesting.
—KJV.
No, I’m not obsessed with KJV and do not believe any one translation is perfect, but you’re wrong about the old English confusing things, which shows me you act like you know a lot but still have much to learn. The use of thy, thou, thine, thee, ye, etc. can actually CLEAR up misconceptions to identify when a person or the author is speaking to a group or an individual, since Early Modern English distinguished between the plural ye and the singular thou. So, again, you’re just speaking without even having thought about the subject. Great work you’re doing here…
—No, Trinitarians do not agree with Hebrews 2:17.
Buddy, I don’t know how many times I have to say this, but you need to do your homework. Trinitarians believe Jesus had both a divine and human nature. This is why I said earlier you’re straw-manning and attacking positions you don’t even fully understand. You’re a joke. Please do your homework.
Jesus foretold, “When he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13 NIV). Jesus was predicting “the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people”, (Jude 3 NIV), the New Testament. Just as the Old Testament, “all scripture is [was] inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16 NIV), so the 8 New Testament writers, like Paul, “wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him [them]”, and these writings by the apostles and their close associates were viewed as “the other Scriptures” (2 Peter 3:15 NIV), by the end of the first century. Thus, the 27 books of the New Testament were viewed as “Scripture” (1 Timothy 5:18) 300 years before Trinitartianism, and the lists of New Testament books of the 4th century that you refer to.
Regarding KJV language, how about “shambles” (1 Corinthians 10:25); “pulse” (Daniel 1:12); “sincere” (1 Peter 2:2)? What do these words mean? Have the meanings changed? Does KJV language help or hinder sincere truth seekers? How about “the voice of the turtle” (Song of Solomon 2:12); and “the horns of unicorns” (Deuteronomy 33:17)? Do turtles sing? Have “unicorns” ever existed? If so, does a unicorn have one horn, or two horns? Which translations better reflect the Biblical Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek words?
Jesus said “God is spirit”, “not a man” (John 4:24; Numbers 23:19). By claiming Jesus to be “God-man”, Trinitarians reject this. Trinitarians reject the Biblical truth that Jesus “became flesh”, “has come in the flesh”, “fully human in every way” (John 1:14; 1 John 4:2; Hebrews 2:17 NIV). “Flesh” and “spirit” are not the same (John 3:6), as Trinitarians claim in the case of Jesus. Being any part God, means Jesus could not be “flesh”, according to the Bible.
YOUR NOTION OF SOLA SCRIPTURA DEBUNKED
With regards to 1 Corinthians 4:6, note how you didn’t use the NIV here when you quoted above, but used a different translation which renders it as Scripture instead of what is written.
Every time Paul uses the Greek word translated “written” here, he is referring to the Old Testament. This might save us from the absurdity of not believing anything until it is on paper, but limiting it to the Old Testament would mean that 1 Corinthians 4:6 did not apply to itself since it is not in the Old Testament (neither, in fact, is most of the New Testament!).
Now, while generalizing “what is written” to include both the Old and New Testament writings would avoid the above incoherency, it would be contrary to Paul’s command to “stand fast and hold firm to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours” (2 Thess. 2:15).This verse seems to support anti-sola-scriptura every bit as clearly as 1 Corinthians 4:6 appears (on the surface) to be pro-sola-scriptura. Moreover, this is not the only verse to do so. Paul praises the Corinthians for holding to the traditions just as he had handed them on to them before he wrote 1 Corinthians (i.e., orally – 1 Cor. 11:2) just as he commands the Thessalonians to do concerning the oral teachings he gave them (1 Thess. 2:13 cf. 2 Thess. 3:6). A similar issue arises when we realize that in 1 Cor. 5:9-11 Paul speaks of a prior letter he wrote to the Corinthians that he expected to be taken authoritatively – yet this letter is lost and not part of Scripture.
Moreover, the idea that everything an apostle taught orally was eventually reduced to writing is itself an extra-biblical idea. And what of the apostles who never wrote any Scripture? Jesus commands the apostles to “preach,” not write, and only three apostles wrote. What about Jesus himself who left behind no writing – nor any command to write? Matthew 28:20 says that the apostles were to “observe all I have commanded,” but we are told that not all Jesus did and said is in Scripture (Jn. 20:30 and 21:25)! And what of apostolic teachings that seem to have never been written down? The apostle John said, “I have much to write to you, but I do not wish to write with pen and ink. Instead, I hope to see you soon when we can talk face to face” (3 Jn. 13). Paul said likewise in 1 Thess. 3:10. Paul “proclaimed the entire plan of God” in Ephesus for over at least two years (Acts 20:27), yet his letter to them is only 5 short chapters. What else might he have taught them? In 1 Corinthians itself (11:34) Paul says he has more to teach them but he would do it when he arrived – but we are never told what “these other things” were (and have another lost letter in between 1 and 2 Corinthians that probably contained such material if any of his letters did – 2 Cor. 2:4 cf. 7:8).
Further, the apostles themselves taught from sources outside the Bible. In Acts 17:28, Paul quotes the writings of a pagan poet. In Acts 7:53 Stephen cites an oral tradition that angels gave Moses the Law – one which Paul also taught in Galatians 3:19. Jude 9 and 14-15 both contain material concerning the archangel Michael and Enoch which is taken from extra-biblical sources. In Ephesians 5:14 Paul seems to quote some authoritative source as saying, “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you” – but this is found nowhere else in the Bible. Matthew goes beyond “what is written” in the Old Testament when he lists prophetic evidence of Jesus (2:23). Jesus Himself quotes a pagan playwright when he blinded Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 26:14).
You’re confusing Biblical with non-biblical teachings, and have not debunked “Sola Scriptura”, as you claim.
“Teachings” is a better translation than “traditions” at 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
Jesus embraced the idea of a written canon (Luke 24:44). Jesus taught “It is written” (Matthew 4:4,7,10). The scriptures are authoritative. “Scripture cannot be set aside” (John 10:35 NIV), infallible, inerrant (Matthew 22:29), historically reliable (Matthew 12:40; 24:37,38), and have ultimate supremacy (Matthew 15:3,6). The “scriptures” trump all else. Anything that is true will be in harmony with the “scriptures”, and never contradict the “scriptures”. All teachings should be checked against the “scriptures” (1 Corinthians 4:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:21; 1 John 4:1).
Paul quoted from the writings of pagan philosophers (Acts 17:28; Titus 1:12), but that doesn’t mean these pagans wrote “scripture”. They didn’t. However, the quotes that are in the Bible are part of “scripture”. Jesus did not quote from a pagan poet in Acts 26:14, as you assert.
When Jesus says he has “much more to say to [the disciples], more than you can now bear”, he is referring to the revelation of truth that would flow after “the Spirit of truth, comes [and] “will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:12,13 NIV). He is referring to the New Testament writings that would come during the ensuing years, which are “the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people” (Jude 3 NIV).
When Paul says, “when I come I will give further directions” (1 Corinthians 11:34 NIV), he is talking about oral instruction, but we have “all the truth” we need “to make you wise for salvation through Jesus Christ” (2 Timothy 3:15 NIV), recorded in the Bible. The Bible does not need any supplementation (1 Corinthians 4:6; Galatians 1:8,9; 2 John 9).
Acts 7:53 is not simply an oral tradition, it is the truth (Acts 7:38; Galatians 3:19). Jude 9,14 does not cite any extra-Biblical sources, so it cannot be determined definitively that Jude quoted from anything, or whether God revealed this truth to him.
Ephesians 5:14 does not quote from any extra-biblical source, but apparently is a paraphrased quote, expansion and exposition of Isaiah 60:1-3 where Christ’s light shines all over the world and brings gentiles into the expanding church.
Matthew does not ‘go beyond what is written’ in Matthew 2:23. He was was drawing upon Isaiah 11:1, where the Messiah is called “a Branch”, in saying, ” . . . was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene” (Matthew NIV). Nazareth means “Branch Town”.
You’re just butchering things out of context again to fit your agenda.
Luke 24:44 does not talk about Jesus telling his disciples to write anything down or create a canon, it’s simply talking about the idea that he was foretold in prior generations. Why do you butcher things so badly? This is almost unbelievable.
The point, which you missed completely, was that whenever Jesus referred to Scripture, he was obviously talking about the Old Testament. Nowhere does Jesus explicitly say to write down his sayings, create 4 Gospels, accept the teachings of Paul, etc. I’m only following your own criteria; which is that if it’s not exactly spelled out in the Bible, then it’s to be rejected. You are not consistent with your own line of reasoning and take snippets out of context.
Regarding Acts 26:14, yes, this is a phrase common to the Greek pagan playwrights of the time. Do your homework.
Again, get it through your head, SCRIPTURES/WHAT IS WRITTEN/ETC = OLD TESTAMENT. Stop playing games! Stop butchering and cutting things out of context to fit your agenda!
–God is spirit.
Yes, Trinitarians believe the Holy Spirit is God as well.
— flesh
No, Trinitarians believe Jesus was fully man and fully divine.
— KJV
Those are irrelevant and used by people who want to poke fun at the bible but they play no major role. I never claimed one translation to be superior to begin with, I simply claimed there are better and worse, and KJV falls among the better camp, for the reason I mentioned before about addressing. If you don’t have a command of the English language or are too lazy to do any extra study, that is your problem.
— 300 years before Trinitarianism
The point was that there is no authoritative list of the books of the NT, and the first one comes from heretics you deny. Because the books were written in the first century does not imply anything, because many false books/Gospels were written near apostolic times as well. You agree with the heretics on what is canon, but not on their other heresies. You are playing games with uneven scales here. Also, the Trinity was only officially accepted then, but its outlines come much earlier, so stop lying or do your homework.
— the other Scriptures 2 Peter 3
It is not clear whether the old or new testament is meant here. Regardless, this verse says nothing about exactly which books are to be accepted. Cutting and pasting, as usual for you.
Jesus, in Luke 24:44, refers to “the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (NIV), the three sections of “the [Jewish] Scriptures” (Luke 24:45 NIV), comprised of a total of 24 books, our 39 book Old Testament. The Old Testament canon was referred to this way, or simply as, “the Law and the Prophets” (Matthew 7:12 NIV). Quoting or citing these scriptures, Jesus would often say, “it is written” (Matthew 4:4,7,10). The point is that God’s Word was written.
The New Testament was also written. “What I am writing to you is the Lord’s command” (1 Corinthians 14:37 NIV). “Many have undertaken draw uo an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us . . . With this in mind . . . I too decided to write an orderly account for you . . . so that you may know the certainty of the things that have been taught” (Luke 1:1-4 NIV). “This is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders” (2 Peter 3:1 NIV). “Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters” (2 Peter 3:15,16 NIV). “I write this to you so that you will not sin” (1 John 2:1 NIV). “Write, therefore, what you have seen” (Revelation 1:19). “Write this down” (Revelation 21:5 NIV).
— The New Testament was also written.
What is the point of saying this? I agree it was written, but these verses you have pasted do nothing to argue for the exact New Testament canon which you accept. Nowhere is the New Testament canon definitively outlined to consist of 27 books. You can argue day and night they were inspired, and that’s fine, but nowhere does Scripture itself say the canon MUST contain books X, Y, and Z. I’m only bringing this up because you brought this strict criteria upon yourself when arguing that the Trinity is never explicitly mentioned in the Bible. The point is there are things which you accept that are not explicitly outlined in Scripture. You therefore are a hypocrite.
The facts are that the Trinity doctrine:
(1) Is the main doctrine of mainstream Christian churches
(2) is not only never mentioned in Scripture, the main tenets of the doctrine are never mentioned in Scripture either
(3) Even worse, the doctrine and its tenets, contradict the Scriptures.
(4) The eternal “God-man” of the Trinity doctrine is “a different Jesus” (2 Corinthians 11:4 NLT).
(5) The doctrine of the Trinity is “a different gospel”, causing “confusion”, and ‘perverts the gospel of Christ’ (Galatians 1:6,7 NIV).
The Bible says “there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Jesus Christ” (1 Timothy 2:5 NIV). By definition, the mediator cannot be either of the two parties between whom he mediates. This is one of many scriptural truths that make the Trinity doctrine impossible.
Trinitarians will counter this by saying that we cannot really understand God, so we must believe this doctrine anyway. However, the Bible says that we not only can, but we need to understand God to gain eternal life. Jesus prayed to his Father and said, “this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent” (John 17:3 NIV). “We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son, Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life” (1 John 5:20 NIV).
Notice how you avoided the response about canon and scripture because you were proven wrong
Regarding trinity those answers exist and moreover if you do not accept the trinity funny contradictions arise within the Bible
I’m done responding because this is pointless if you want to hide on your web site so be it
But friendly reminder no one is going to drive traffic here and evangelize for you
Good day mate
The difference between the “false doctrine” of the Trinity (1 Timothy 1:3,4) and the New Testament canon is this:
Jesus told the church that new revelation was coming through the apostles; i. e., the Holy Spirit would “guide” the apostles “into all the truth” (John 16:13 NIV). “The apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Jude 17,18 NIV), Matthew, John, Peter, and Paul’s preserved writings were considered “Scripture”, equal to “the other scriptures”, by the very early church in the 1st century (1 Timothy 5:18; 2 Peter 3:15,16). Jesus’ half-brothers James and Jude were considered equal to “the other apostles” (Galatians 1:19), and their preserved writings were likewise considered “Scripture” by the very early church in the 1st century. Mark was a very close associate of Peter, and wrote down Peter’s recollections under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in his gospel (1 Peter 5:13), and Luke was Paul’s close associate (2 Timothy 4:11). Their preserved writings were also considered “Scripture” by the very early church 1st century.
On the other hand, the Trinity doctrine is not only never mentioned in the scriptures (1 Corinthians 4:6), but, much worse, it contradicts the scriptures (1 Thessalonians 5:21; 1 John 4:1). There are numerous contradictions with the Bible if one accepts the Trinity doctrine. There are no contradictions with the Bible if one rejects the Trinity. It was not developed until the 4th century, being finalized in 381 CE by the Council of Constantinople.
Thus, there is no comparison. You’re attacking a “straw man”.
This web site is open to the public, and is not “hiding”.
— Strawman
So I start using a term to describe your depiction of the Trinity now you’d like to use it against me? Funny. Anyways, there are many sites open to the public which are dead or are nearly dead due to little traffic. I keep bringing this up because you had the audacity to ask ME to bring people to YOUR site, which is quite laughable, since that is your job. It is on you to be evangelizing, not hiding from criticism or confrontation. And, yes, sitting back and expecting people to find this small website is indeed hiding.
First:
Numerous verses in the Bible explicitly call Jesus God or ascribe Deity to Him:
Isa 7:14; 9:6; Jer 23:5; Matt 1:22f; John l:l; 5:18; 20:28; Acts 20:28; Rom 8:9; 9:5; Phil 2:6f; Col 2:9; 1Tim 3:16; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:8; 2Peter 1:1.
Second:
Jesus acted as possessing the attributes of Deity.
Jesus with hand upHe forgave sin which only God can do (Mark 2:5-12; Luke 7:47-50).
He placed His own words on par with the words of God (Matt 5:27f; 31f).
He spoke as being omniscient (Matt 17:27; Mark 2:8; Luke 9:46f; 11:17; John 1:48; 4:16-18).
He foretold the future (Matt 16:21; 24:25; 26:21-25; 31-25; John 21:18f).
Jesus controlled the weather which is the prerogative of God (Mark 4:39-41, compare Job 38:25-38).
He even promised direction and comfort to His followers based on His omnipresence (Matt 18:20; 28:20 cp. Heb 13:5 see also John 1:48; 3:13).
Third:
Attributes of God are ascribed to Jesus by others: Jesus is declared to be:
Omniscient (John 2:23-25; 16:30; 21:17)
Omnipresent (Eph 1:23; 4:10)
Omnipotent (Phil 3:21).
Eternally pre-existent (Isa 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1:1; Col 1:17)
Immutable ( not able to change–Heb 1:8-12; 13:8).
Fourth:
Acts of God are attributed to Jesus:
Jesus is said to be the Agent of creation (John 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2); yet, the LORD declares that He creates by Himself (see Isa 44:24). The LORD God breathed the breath of life into humans (Gen 2:7). But Peter proclaims Jesus to be the Prince (or Originator) of life (Acts 3:14 see also John 1:4). Jesus is also the sustainer of the universe (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3).
In the Old Testament, the LORD is the only One who can save people from their sins (Isa 43:25; 44:21; 63:16). As the New Testament opens, an angel declares to Joseph, “. . . you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins” (Matt 1:21 see also Eph 1:7). Furthermore, Peter quotes the prophet Joel as saying, “. . . whoever calls upon the name of the LORD shall be saved” (Acts 2:21). Later, Peter claims that only the name of Jesus can save (Acts 4:12).
Fifth:
Jesus is treated like He is God:
He is worshipped by humans and angels (Matt 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb 1:6; Rev 5:8-14; cf. Acts 12:20-23; Rev 19:10).
He receives the kind of “service” that is only allowed to God (Rev 22:3f Greek–latreuo; cf. Matt 4:10).
People even pray to Jesus (Acts 7:59f; 2Cor 12:8; 1John 5:13-15).
Sixth:
The Old Testament theophanies (appearances of God) are actually pre-incarnate appearances of Christ. This fact can be established because Jesus tells us, “Not that anyone has seen the Father . . .” (John 6:46). A comparison of John 12:41 with Isa 6:1-5 will confirm it was the Son, not the Father, who appeared to Isaiah. Yet, Isaiah specifically exclaims, “. . . my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts” (Isa 6:5 see also Gen 18; Exod 33:11, 20, etc.).
Seventh:
The Angel of the LORD is an interesting Person in the Old Testament. Sometimes the Angel of the LORD and the LORD are presented as being two distinct Persons (2Sam 24:16f; 1Chron 21:15f, 27). More often, though, the names seem to belong to the same Person (Exod 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19; Judges 6:12-15; 13:21f).
Eighth:
A similar situation is seem in the Revelation in the relationship of God and the Lamb. God sits on the throne; but, the Lamb “is in the midst of the throne” (Rev 7:10, 17). Later, the throne is said to belong to BOTH God and the Lamb (Rev 22:1, 3). Further, there is no temple in the New Jerusalem “. . . for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple” (Rev 21:22 cp. 1Kings 8:10-13). In addition, the glory of God and of the Lamb illumines the city (Rev 21:23 see Isa 60:19f).
Ninth:
Titles of Deity are held by both God and Jesus; yet, these titles are such that only One can possess them.
Alpha-omega crown”The Alpha and the Omega; the First and the Last” (Isa 44:5; Rev 1:8, 11, 17f; 2:8; 21:66; 22:12-17).
“The King of kings and the Lord of lords” (1Tim 6:16; Rev 17:14; 19:16).
Jesus is said to be the “Rock” who sustained the Israelites during their wilderness wanderings. However, Israel at the time believed the LORD their God was their “Rock” (1Cor 10:4; Deut 32:3f; 8:2-5).
In the Pastoral epistles, Paul juxtaposes God and Jesus when referring to “our Savior” (1Tim 1:1; 2:3; 2Tim 1:10; Titus 1:3f; 2:10, 13f; 3:4, 6). But the LORD says, “. . . there is no savior besides Me” (Hos 13:4 see also Isa 43:11).
Tenth:
Passages in the Old Testament that refer to the LORD are quoted or alluded to in the New Testament in reference to Jesus. Compare the following sets of verses:
Deut 10:14; Acts 10:36
Ps 34:8; 1Peter 2:3
Ps 102:25; Heb 1:10
Isa 26:19; 60:1; Eph 5:14
Isa 43:10; Acts 1:8
Isa 45:23; Phil 2:10
Jer 9:24; 2Cor 10:17; Phil 3:3
Jer 17:10; Rev 2:23
Joel 2:32; Rom 10:13
Zech 11:12f; Matt 26:14f
Zech 12:10; John 19:37
Mal 3:1; Mark 1:2.
Eleventh:
God uses plural, first person pronouns–“Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness” (Gen 1:26). From the earliest times, the Church has interpreted this phrase as the Father speaking to the Son (see The Epistle of Barnabas 5:5, written about 100 AD; see also Gen 11:7). The Lord even freely moves from the singular to the plural–“Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” (Isa 6:8).
Twelfth:
And finally, three verses in the Old Testament indicate there are two Persons with the name “the LORD” (Gen 19:24; Zech 2:10f; 3:1) and one passage hints there are two Persons called “God” (Ps 45:7 see Heb 1:8f).
Conclusion:
Given this wealth of information, the only logical conclusion is, Jesus is God! He is the LORD. He Himself claimed to be God; the Biblical writers portray Him as One who possesses essential Deity.
Further, Jesus proclaimed, “… if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24; MKJV, compare Exod 3:14; Deut 32:39; Isa 43:10). The vital question Jesus poses to every person is “But who do YOU say that I am?” (Matt 16:15, emphasis added).
The Bible answers the question at the end of your post. As Peter correctly answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16 NIV), not God. Jesus affirmed, “This was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven: Matthew 16:17 NIV). Your assertions that Jesus is God contradict the scriptures (1 John 4:1).
“First”—Biblical refutations:
Isaiah 7:14–If “Immanuel” makes Jesus God, then the child born to to the “young woman” (Isaiah 7:14 NIV margin) in Isaiah’s day who was called “Immanuel” was God (Isaiah 8:10).
Isaiah 9:6–Jesus is called “Mighty God”, but never “the LORD [Yahweh] Almighty” (Isaiah 9:7 NIV)
Jeremiah 23:5–The Messiah is called “a righteous Branch, a King” (NIV)
Matthew 1:22,23–Matthew 1:18 explains “This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about” (NIV). The Messiah is not God Almighty. If being called “Immanuel” makes Jesus God, the child born in Isaiah’s day called “Immanuel” would also be God.
John 1:1–“Was God: lack of a definite article with ‘God’ in Greek signifies prediction rather than identification”. As John 1:18 further explains, “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him” (NIV). Jesus is “the only begotten God” meaning he was created by his Father, but he is not the the “God” whom “no one has ever seen”.
John 5:18–Jesus’ “calling God his own Father” did not ‘make him equal to God’. Neither was he “making himself equal with God”, nor “was he breaking the Sabbath” (John 5:18 NIV), as he was falsely accused. Jesus flatly refuted the equality accusation by saying, “the Son can do nothing by himself” John 5:19 NIV). Joseph was viewed as “equal to Pharaoh himself”, but Pharaoh told him, “all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I be greater than you” (Genesis 44:18; 40:40 NIV).
John 20:28–The disciples viewed Jesus as “a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God” (Luke 24:19 NIV), “the Messiah, the Son of God” (John 20:31 NIV). Thomas’ exclamation, “My Lord [Jesus] and my God [the Father]” does not make Jesus God Almighty.
Acts 20:28–“Be shepherds of the church of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son” (NIV margin). It was Christ who “died for our sins” (1 Corinthians 15:3), not God, who “never dies” (Habakkuk 1:12 NJB). “God presented Christ [not himself] as a sacrifice of atonement” (Romans 3:25 NIV).
Romans 8:9–Does not call Jesus God, or attribute deity, to him. Romans 8:11 refers to “the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead” (NIV). Since “God . . . will never die” (Habakkuk 1:12 NIV), Jesus cannot be God.
Romans 9:5–“The Messiah, who is over all. God be forever praised!” (NIV margin). Says Jesus is “the Messiah”, not God.
Philippians 2:6–“Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped” (NAB). Jesus never considered himself equal to God.
Colossians 2:9–“In him, in bodily form, lives divinity in all its fulness” (NJB). Colossians 1:19 says that “God was pleased to have all his fulness dwell in him” (NIV). Having God’s fulness doesn’t make one God, since Christians “may participle in divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4 NIV). Also “Christ is, seated at the right hand of God” (Colossians 3:1 NIV), he can’t be God.
1 Timothy 3:16–“He [Christ, not God] appeared in the flesh”.
Titus 2:13–“As we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ” (NAB). Jesus is not referred to as God.
Hebrews 1:8–Quotes Psalm 45:6, which says of the Israelite king, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever” (NIV). If Hebrews 1:8 makes Jesus God, then Psalm 45:6 makes the Israelite king God. One meaning of God is “powerful one”.
2 Peter 1:1–“To those who have have received a faith of equal value to ours through the righteous of our God and the savior Jesus Christ” (NAB margin). Again, Jesus is not identified as God.
“Second”—Biblical refutations
Jesus’ healing the paralyzed man (Matthew 9:2-8; Mark 2:3-12; Luke 5:18-26) didn’t make him God, as the Bible makes clear, “The praised God for sending a man with great authority” (NLT). At John 20:23, Jesus gives the apostles authority to forgive sins, “If you forgive anyone their sins, their sins are forgiven” (NIV). Obviously forgiving sins doesn’t make one God.
You claim “he placed his words on a par with God”. Jesus himself refutes your claim, by saying, “These words you hear are not own; they belong to the Father who sent me” (John 14:24 NIV). “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you” (Acts 3:22 NIV). We should listen to Jesus. He speaks for God. But he’s not God, nor equal to God.
Your claim that Jesus “spoke as being omniscient”, is also refuted by Jesus himself. “About that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, not the Son, but only the Father” (Mark 13:32 NIV). “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority” (Acts 1:7 NIV).
Your claim of Jesus predictions make him God is also false. Since Jesus is God’s “prophet” (Acts 3:22), he is empowered by “the Lord your God” to foretell the future. God foretold, “I will put my words in his mouth” (Deuteronomy 18:18:18 NIV). Jesus said, “I gave them the words you gave me” (John 17:8 NIV). His predictions don’t make him God. Old Testament prophets also foretold the future, and they’re not God.
Your weather control assertion is debunked by: “Elijah . . . said to Ahab, ‘As the LORD, the God of Israel lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word” (1 Kings 17:1 NIV). “Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain” (James 5:17,18 NIV).
Your omnipresence assertion is debunked by: “He must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things” (Acts 3:20 NLT).
“Third”—Scriptural refutations
Your all-knowing and omnipresent assertions have already been refuted above.
You cite Philippians 3:21 as “proof” of Jesus’ “omnipotence”. It says, “By the power that enables him to bring everything under his control” (NIV). What is that power? “That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms” (Ephesians 1:19,20 NIV). It’s the power of “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father” (Ephesians 1:17 NIV). Jesus is never referred to as Almighty, and scriptures show that he his not the Almighty. “The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple” (Revelation 21:22 NIV).
You cite Micah 5:2 as “proof” that Jesus is Almighty, yet the scripture actually says that he had an “origin” (NRSV), a beginning. Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature” (KJV). Being a “creature” means he was created.
You “immutable” assertion is refuted by the fact that “the Word became flesh” (John 1:14). “Christ died” (1 Corinthians 15:3). “But God raised him from the dead” (Acts 2:24), “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit” (1 Peter 3:18 NAB). Several changes obviously.
“Fourth”—Scriptual refutations
Jesus is the “Agent of creation, yes, but he’s never called “Creator”. “God created everything through him” (John 1:3 NLT). “Through him God created everything” (Colossians 1:16 NLT). “Through the Son God created the universe” (Hebrews 1:2 NLT). These scriptures you cited prove that Jesus is not God, but he’s the agent that God created everything through. “Through whom all things came” (1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV).
Isaiah 42-46 contrasts Yahweh the Creator of everything, “from whom all things came” (1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV), with false gods who can do nothing. That’s why he says he’s the only Creator. Jesus is not the Creator.
“The Prince of Life” (Acts 3:15) is subservient to the “the Lord God Almighty” who “created all things” (Revelation 4:8,11 NIV).
Jesus sits “at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven” (Hebrews 1:3 NIV), but is not “the Majesty” himself. God uses him to sustain the universe.
“Jesus is the one referred o in the Scriptures. There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12 NLT). God saves through Jesus.
Fifth”—Scriptural refutations
Jesus said “the true worshippers will worship the Father” (John 4:24), not himself. He is not worshipped in the Bible. People “Did him homage” (Matthew 14:33; 28:9 NAB), and “Fell on his knees before him” (John 9:38 REB), “Let all God’s angels pay him homage” (Hebrews 1:6 REB), but Jesus is never worshipped in the Bible.
You claim that Jesus is worshipped in Revelation 5:8-14; Acts 12:20-23; Revelation 19:10, but these verses say nothing about worshipping Jesus. Heavenly creatures “fell down before him” (v 8), but didn’t worship him. When they “fell down and worshipped”, who did they worship? They “fell down before him who sits on the throne and worship[ped] him who lives forever and ever”, “fell down and worshipped God, who was seated on the throne” (Revelation 4:10; 19:4 NIV). Revelation 19:10 says we should “worship God!”, not Jesus.
You claim that people “serve” Jesus in Revelation 22:3, but the verse actually says “his servants will serve him” (NIV). Who is “him”? “They are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple” (Revelation 7:15 NIV).
Stephen “called out, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit'” (Acts 7:59 ESV), but did not pray to Jesus. Paul “pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me” (2 Corinthians 12:8 NIV), like Jesus did with the Father (Matthew 26:39,44). This is very similar to his statement in Ephesians 1:17, “I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father” (NIV). He prayed to God, not Jesus.
You assert that 1 John 5:13-15 supports praying to Jesus, but it actually does the opposite. “This is the confidence we have in approaching God” (NIV), not Jesus.
“Sixth”–Scriptural refutations
John 12:41 does not reference Isaiah’s vision of God Almighty in Isaiah 6:1-5, as Trinitarians like to imagine. John 12:38 quotes Isaiah 53:1 about lack of belief in Jesus “the arm of the Lord”. John 12:39,40 references Isaiah 6:10, giving the reason for people’s unbelief in Jesus. “Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him” (John 12:41 NIV). How did Isaiah ‘see Jesus glory’? John 12:38,40 quote from the Greek Septuagint (LXX). “See, my servant shall understand and he shall be exalted and glorified exceedingly, Just as many shall be astonished at you–so shall your appearance be without glory from men” (Isaiah 53:13,14 LXX NETS). This is the glory that John said Isaiah saw, not the vision in Isaiah 6:1-5, as Trinitarians imagine.
Not only has “No one seen the Father” (John 6:46), “No one has ever seen God” (John 1:18).
“Seventh”—Biblical refutations
You’ve given examples of angels representing Yahweh. There is zero evidence that the angel of Yahweh is Jesus, as Trinitarians like to imagine.
“The angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush” (Exodus 3:2 NIV).
“The angel of God, who had been traveling in front of Israel’s army” (Exodus 14:19 NIV).
“I am sending an angel ahead of you . . . My angel will go ahead of you” (Exodus 23:20,23 NIV).
“The angel of the LORD came and sat down . . . The angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon” (Judges 6:11,12 NIV).
“When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD” (Judges 13:21 NIV).
The truth is that “no one has ever seen God” (1 John 4:12 NIV). The Trinitarian assertion that Jesus, the so-called second person of the Trinity, was “the angel of the LORD” is without any evidence and contradicts scriptural truth.
“Eighth”–Scriptural refutations
You’re trying to assert that in Revelation, Jesus, the Lamb is equal to God.
Revelation shows just the opposite.
Revelation 5:13 shows that “him who sits on the throne” is not “the Lamb”.
Revelation 4:8-11 shows that “the Lord God Almighty”, “sits on the throne”, is worshipped, because he “created all things” (NIV).
Jesus said he “was dead” (Revelation 1:18). Habakkuk 1:12 says that “God . . . will never die” (NIV).
Revelation 21:22 clearly shows that “the Lamb” is not “the Lord God Almighty”.
Revelation 22:1,3 show that “the Lamb” is not “God”.
“Ninth”–Scriptural refutations
God and Jesus share some titles, such as “Lord” and “Savior”, but that doesn’t make Jesus God. Humans have also been called “lord”, but that doesn’t mean they are God (Genesis 18:12; Matthew 18:27 KJV,NRSV; 1 Peter 3:6). Humans have been called “savior” and “saviors” (Judges 3:9,15 NAB; Nehemiah 9:27 NAB; Obadiah 21 NKJV), but that doesn’t make them God.
Jesus is never called “the Alpha and the Omega”. That title belongs exclusively to “the Lord God Almighty” (Revelation 1:8), who has “sons” (Revelation 21:5-7; Romans 8:14; Galatians 3:26), but no brothers. Jesus has “brothers” (Matthew 25:40; Hebrews 2:11), but no sons.
Artaxerxes and Nebuchadnezzar each had the title “king of kings” (Ezra 7:12; Daniel 2:37), but that doesn’t mean they are God or Jesus Christ.
“Tenth”–Scriptural refutations of your claim that the following scriptures prove Jesus is Yahweh
Dt 10:14; Acts 10:36–These verses have no connection
Ps 34:8; 1 Pt 2:3–Does not reference Jesus
Ps 102:25; Heb 1:10–“Through the Son he created the universe” (Hebrews 1:2 NLT)
Isa 26:19; 60:1; Eph 5:14–Jesus is the “light of all mankind” (John 1:4 NIV). But that doesn’t make him Yahweh. “He was with God in the beginning” (John 1:2), but “no one has ever seen God” (John 1:18), and lots of people saw Jesus.
Isa 43:10; Acts 1:8–Being witnesses for both Yahweh and Jesus doesn’t make Jesus Yahweh. This is “the message God sent . . . announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all” (Acts 10:36 NIV).
Isa 45:23; Phil 2:10–“At the name of Jesus every knee should bow . . . and every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER” (Phil 2:10,11 NIV). Obviously, Jesus is not Yahweh.
Jer 9:24; 2 Cor 19:17; Phil 3:3–Boasting in both Yahweh God the Father and Jesus Christ doesn’t make Jesus Yahweh or equal to him.
Jer 17:10; Rev 2:23–Jesus’ ‘searching hearts and minds, repaying each person according to their deeds’ (NIV) is not surprising because “the Father . . . has entrusted all judgment to the Son” (John 5:22 NIV).
Joel 2:32; Rom 10:13–Jesus is the Lord in Rom 10:13, but nothing in the immediate context, or the entire Bible, shows that Yahweh and Jesus are the same being. In the OT people called on Yahweh for salvation, and now we call on Jesus for salvation, which doesn’t show an identity of persons, but, rather, a shift of responsibility. This was foreshadowed by Pharaoh’s entrusting Joseph with being 2nd in command. “All my people are to submit to your orders. Only with resect to the throne will I be greater than you” (Genesis 41:40 NIV).
Zech 11:12; Mt 26:14–Simply a prophecy about Jesus fulfilled
Zech 12:10; Jn 19:37–Nothing about Jesus being Yahweh. Zech 12:10 predicted “When they look on the one whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child” (NRSV). John 19:37 records the fulfillment, “scripture says, ‘they will look on the one whom they have pierced'” (NIV).
Mal 3:1; Mark 1:2–Simply a prediction and the fulfillment of “John the Baptist” coming as God’s “messenger” (Mark 1:2-4). Nothing about Jesus being Yahweh.
“Twelfth”–Scriptural refutations
Your claims that Gen 19:24; Zech 2:10f; 3:1 “indicate there are two persons with the name ‘the LORD’ is purely Trinitarian imagination, and is completely unsupported by the facts. Jesus statement that “The Lord our God is one Lord” (Mark 12:29 NRSV) debunks the Trintarian myth that there are ‘two LORDS’, or Yahwehs. Jesus agreed with the scribe who called “The Lord our God” “he” and “him” (Mark 12:33-35 NRSV).
In Psalm 45:7 the Israelite king is called “God”, and in Heb 1:8 Jesus is called “God” because they represent God to the people.
“Conclusion”–Scriptural refutations
No, Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus emphasized that, “I said, ‘I am the Son of God!” (John 10:36), and “If you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins” (John 8:24 NIV [1984]). Biblical writer John wrote, “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God” (John 20:31 NIV). Biblical writer Matthew writes that the issue was whether Jesus was “the Son of God” (Matthew 4:3,6). Biblical writers Mark, Peter and Luke record God saying of Jesus, “This is my Son” (Mark 9:7; 2 Peter 1:17; Luke 9:35). Biblical writer Paul wrote, “was designated Son of God in power by resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ, our Lord” (Romans 1:4 NJB).
Yahweh calls himself, “I will be what I will be . . . the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” (Exodus 3:14-16 NRSV margin). According to Acts 3:13, “The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob . . . has glorified his servant Jesus” (NRSV). Jesus is God’s servant, not God, not equal to God.
Thus, the Biblical evidence completely debunks the myths of the false doctrine of the Trinity.
“Eleventh”–Scriptural refutations
We agree that in Gen 1:26, God the Father is speaking to his Son, Jesus, and in Isa 6:8 “us” refers to both of them. But neither of these in any way indicates that Jesus is Yahweh, or equal to Yahweh, as Trinitarians like to imagine.
John 10:22
Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.
Where is the feast of Hanukkah in your 39 book Old Testament? As I exposed before, you cannot escape traditions, lens of interpretation, etc. You say that you are Bible only without realizing the Bible is not fully self contained, at least according to even your logic, since Hanukkah is described nowhere in the 39 books. I know you’re going to try to claim or cite another feast of dedication, so don’t be a fool and go there.
Additionally, you did nothing to refute the point that the canon of scripture is not fully outline within scripture itself. You are working backwards from an assumption that there are 27 books, without realizing that they are not all fully described within the 27. You can quote day and night that Paul was inspired, or that the early church was inspired, but then you have to somehow reconcile the facts that: the scripture is not explicitly outlined anywhere (re read many times to understand what is being said here, I said explicitly), and that the early church somehow was not preserved by Jesus and the Holy Spirit since many heresies according to you arose within the early church. Uneven scales again.
It’s too much to get into all the points above but your rebuttals are common, and the best thing I can advise again is to stop being a coward and get online with someone knowledgable about scripture.
Good day
The 39 book OT canon was firmly established 400 years prior to Jesus, and is clearly elucidated in scripture, as, for example, when Jesus mentioned, “the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (Luke 24:44 NIV). These three sections match our 39 book OT canon.
Our 27 book NT canon is also elucidated when one carefully analyzes the NT. Luke’s and Paul’s writings (16 books) were considered “Scripture” (1 Timothy 5:18; 2 Peter 3:15,16). The apostles’ writings (8 books) were viewed as authoritative (Jude 17,18). Mark wrote his gospel (1 book) as Peter’s secretary (1 Peter 5:13). Jesus’ half brothers James and Jude were viewed as “the other apostles” (Acts 15:19-21; Galatians 1:19 NIV), and their writings (2 books) as equally authoritative. Thus, we have the 27 book NT canon, all inspired writings. There were a number of other books, some of which claimed to be written by an apostle, that were rejected as uninspired. Christians were told to “not believe every every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1 NIV), and they obeyed. For example, Christians were warned to “not become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us–whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter–asserting that the day of the Lord has already come” (2 Thessalonians 2:2 NIV). The 27 inspired books constitute “the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people” (Jude 3 NIV). Paul wrote other letters (1 Corinthians 5:9; Colossians 4:16) which did not become part of the canon because the 27 book canon has all of “the faith” that we need.
I read something by Jesus mythcism bothered me could I ask you to respond to it
Thanks for your comment. You say you “read something by Jesus mysticism” that “bothered” you. Not sure what you read, so not sure exactly how to respond.
Also, there are many varieties of mysticism, so we’re not sure exactly what kind of mysticism you’re referring to. We can say, in general, however, that mysticism does not harmonize with Bible principles. Why?
The principle expressed at Deuteronomy 18:10-12 warns God’s people of the dangers of anything to do with the occult. The principle at Colossians 2:18 expresses the principle of the danger of thinking one has some sort of special insight, experience or knowledge, and says, “the reality belongs to Christ.” (NIV) At Matthew 12:43-45, the basic principle is expressed in warning God’s people against blanking their minds. Often occult-like mystic practices, such as blotting out one’s own thoughts, open up one to demonic influence.
Based on Bible principles, we would advise anyone to avoid mysticism.
If you have any further questions, let us know.
What is the evidence for the resurrection
Thank you for your question. There is abundant evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This website has numerous articles about this. Go to the “Categories” section on the Homepage, and scroll down to, and click on: “Jesus’ Resurrection.”
Let us know if you have any other questions.
Hi I hope your well, and I agree with a lot of your points and i appreciate the research you have provided in your answers. I have a couple questions
How would you explain Jesus being called the first and Last in revelation 1:17. In what context is he the first and last if this isn’t referring him to being eternal.
Also in hebrews 1:10 a text is taken from psalm 102:25 that was applied to Jehovah and it is applied to Jesus it seems regarding Jehovah laying the foundation of the earth and heavens being the work of his hands.
To clarify i’m not a trinitarian as my understanding of the bible reading it as a whole is there is only one God and he has been identified as the father, with there being many clear and unrefutable passages identifying the Father as God alone. However there are scriptures that on the surface can be seen to challenge this idea, which i have highlighted above hence why in reaching out
K—How would you explain Jesus being called the first and Last in revelation 1:17. In what context is he the first and last if this isn’t referring him to being eternal.
BA–Those are good questions. We’re pleased to reply.
Ultimately Yahweh, the Father is in control of everything. He alone is “God Almighty” (Revelation 21:22). Jesus, his Son, is the “Mighty God”, but not Almighty. Jesus said that “the true worshippers will worship the Father”, “alone” (John 4:23; Matthew 4:10).
Yahweh and Jesus have some titles that are the same, such as “Lord”, “Savior” (Titus 3:4-6), “the first and the last”, and “King of kings” (1 Timothy 6:14-16; Revelation 19:16). Human kings have also been called “king of kings” (Ezra 7:12; Daniel 2:37), and “lord” (Matthew 18:31,32; KJV; LSV; Jubilee Bible; Acts 16:30 LSV; Jubilee Bible).
Jesus is “the first and the last”, for one reason, because he is the beginning and the end of God’s plan of salvation. In the Old Testament we learn:
“He calls each generation from the beginning: I, Yahweh, who am the first and till the last I shall still be there” (Isaiah 41:4 NJB). Yahweh, the Father, uses and empowers his Son, Jesus, to judge people and to resurrect the dead:
“The Father loves his Son and shows him everything that he himself does . . . just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes. Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment to the Son . . . just as the Father has life in himself. so also he gave to the possession of life in himself. And he gave him power to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of Man” (John 5:20-22,26,27 NAB).
Jesus said, “the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory” (Matthew 16:27). Jesus represents his Father in everything he does. The Father gets his work done through Jesus, his Son.
K–Also in hebrews 1:10 a text is taken from psalm 102:25 that was applied to Jehovah and it is applied to Jesus it seems regarding Jehovah laying the foundation of the earth and heavens being the work of his hands.
BA—Jesus’ “origin is from old, from ancient times” (Micah 5:2 NAB). “He was with God in the beginning” (John 1:2) of creation, but he was not revealed until New Testament times. When Hebrews 1:10 applies Psalm 102:25 to Jesus, it’s not identifying him as “the the Lord God Almighty” “who created all things” (Revelation 4:8,11), but that he was used by his Father in the creation of the universe. For example:
“Through him God created everything” (Colossians 1:16 NLT). “God created everything through him” (John 1:3 NLT). “His Son . . . through who also he made the universe” (Hebrews 1:2 NIV).
An often overlooked scripture is Hebrews 1:9, which refers to “God, your God”. Jesus’ Father is obviously his “God”. Anyone with “God” over them cannot be God himself.
Hope this is helpful.
Hi I hope your well i have a couple questions.
When Jesus is called the first and last in revelation 1:17 what is the context of him being given this title, It seems this was reserved alone for God in respect to his eternal nature.
Also in hebrews 1:10 it seems that psalm 102:25 a passage about Jehovah in the old testament relating to him being the creator a nd being unchanging is being applied to Jesus how would you explain this.
I was reading through some of your articles on Bible Authenticity today and it appears that you do not believe that Jesus was God. Is that true? If not, what/who do you believe that he was in his days on earth? And whom do you consider him to be today? Thank you.
Here’s what the Bible says:
“‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ And Jesus answered him, ‘ . . . flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father who is in heaven'”—Matthew 16:16 ESV
“Jesus Christ, the Son of God”—Mark 1:1
“‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?’ And Jesus said, ‘I am, and you will seethe Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power'”—Mark 14:61,62 ESV
“The Father is greater than I am”—John 14:28 NLT
“Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God”—John 20:31 ESV
“Christ died for our sins”—1 Corinthians 15:3
“This Jesus God has resurrected”—Acts 2:32 HCSB
“Christ is seated at the right hand of God”—Colossians 3:1 NAB. So he can’t be God.
“There is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”—1 Timothy 2:5 ESV
In Revelation 3:12, Jesus speaks of “my God” four times, which means he cannot be God.
Acts 3:13 says God “glorified his servant Jesus”. Jesus is God’s servant.
Jesus is the “Mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6), but is not “the Lord God Almighty” who “created all things” (Revelation 4:8,11).
Hope this helps.
There are many articles on this site that give even more detailed information.
Thank you, but if he is not God, when did he come into existence? He was born in Bethlehem as the Son, but did he exist before that? If so, could he be a son if he hadn’t been born yet?
Your question—Thank you, but if he is not God, when did he come into existence? He was born in Bethlehem as the Son, but did he exist before that? If so, could he be a son if he hadn’t been born yet?
Our response—Yes, he existed before his birth on earth!
Jesus said, “I came down from heaven” (John 6:38).
In foretelling Jesus’ birth on earth 700 years in advance, the scriptures reveal that his “origin is from of old, from ancient times” (Micah 5:2 NAB).
The scriptures further reveal that Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature” (Colossians 1:15 KJV), meaning he was created first by God.
From the time of his creation, Jesus has been God’s “only begotten Son” (John 3:16 KJV; NASB).
“And whom do you consider him to be today?” I couldn’t find you answer to this question I had asked: Who Jesus is today, in your opinion. You said He isn’t God. Do you believe he is an angel? There are various types of angels; there are demon spirits; and there is God (only one). I don’t know of any other types of spirit beings.
Isaiah 9
6 “For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,” — So you believe Jesus is “Mighty” God, but not “Almighty God”? More than one God? There are numerous scriptures about there being only one God.
“Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” — This Child is “Everlasting Father.” So “Almighty God” isn’t the Everlasting Father, but Jesus is?
Colossians 2
6 “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:” — THE Lord, not A Lord — how many Lords are there?
8 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” — IN CHRIST dwells all the FULNESS (completeness) of the GODHEAD BODILY.
Hebrews 1:8 – “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever…” — Almighty God told Jesus, the Son, that he is God and his throne is forever and ever. How many Gods and how many thrones? If Jesus isn’t God, why did God say that he is? Doesn’t make sense.
All scriptures from KJV, although many other versions confirm the same.
I appreciate your prompt replies to my questions, but I see too many discrepancies in your interpretation of the Scriptures. But thank you for your time.
Fuzzy—“And whom do you consider him to be today?” I couldn’t find you answer to this question I had asked: Who Jesus is today, in your opinion. You said He isn’t God.
BA—Thirty years after Jesus’ resurrection, the Bible informs us that had “God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow . . . and every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus is Lord” (Philippians 2:9-11a NIV). Did you notice who exalted Jesus “to the highest place”?—It was God!!! Jesus is the highest of all creatures in existence, but he’s not Almighty God. Trinitarians often overlook, or ignore the next phrase:
” . . . to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:12b NIV). Jesus’ highly exalted position is all “to the glory of God the Father”!!! As exalted as Jesus is, he’s still not Almighty God, nor will he ever be.
Fuzzy– Do you believe he is an angel?
BA—No!–“To which one of the angels did God ever say: ‘You are my Son'” (Hebrews 1:5 NIV). “To which one of the angels did God ever say: ‘Sit at my right hand until I make you enemies a footstool for your feet’?” (Hebrews 1:13 NIV).
Fuzzy—There are various types of angels; there are demon spirits; and there is God (only one).
BA—And there is “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth . . . and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father” (Revelation 1:5,6 NIV). Did you notice that God the Father is Jesus’ God?
Fuzzy—Isaiah 9
6 “For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,” — So you believe Jesus is “Mighty” God, but not “Almighty God”?
BA—True, notice, “The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this” (Isaiah 9:7 NIV), so, obviously not!
Fuzzy—More than one God? There are numerous scriptures about there being only one God.
BA—“There are, to be sure many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’, yet for us there is one God the Father, from who all things are . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are” (1 Corinthians 8:5,6 NAB).
Moses was made to be “as God to Pharaoh” (Exodus 7:1 NASB). Israelite rulers and judges are called by God and Jesus “gods” (Psalm 82:1,6; John 10:34). The Israelite king is addressed as “God” in Psalm 45:6. “The Israelite king, uncourtly language is called ‘god’, i. e., more than human, representing God to the people” (NAB note on Psalm 45:6).
Fuzzy—“Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” — This Child is “Everlasting Father.” So “Almighty God” isn’t the Everlasting Father, but Jesus is?
BA—In this context, yes. “As the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his son the possession of life in himself” (John 5:26 NAB). “Just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes” (John 5:21 NAB).
Fuzzy—Colossians 2
6 “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:” — THE Lord, not A Lord — how many Lords are there?
BA—“Many” (1 Corinthians 8:5). Lord is a title shared by many. Humans are also called “lords” (Acts 16:30 LSV; Jubilee Bible; Hart).
Fuzzy—8 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” — IN CHRIST dwells all the FULNESS (completeness) of the GODHEAD BODILY.
BA—“In him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily” (Colossians 2:9 NAB).
“You may be filled with all the fullness of God” (Ephesians 3:19 NAB). If having “the fullness of God” makes someone God, then Christians would be God also, which cannot be true!
Fuzzy—Hebrews 1:8 – “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever…” — Almighty God told Jesus, the Son, that he is God and his throne is forever and ever. How many Gods and how many thrones? If Jesus isn’t God, why did God say that he is? Doesn’t make sense.
BA—This is quote from Psalm 45:6. (See the explanation above). Hebrews 1:9 refers to “God, your God”, Jesus’ God, which means that Almighty is Jesus’ God.
Fuzzy—All scriptures from KJV, although many other versions confirm the same.
BA—Yes.
Fuzzy—I see too many discrepancies in your interpretation of the Scriptures
BA—“Jesus is Almighty God” contradicts the Scriptures. He’s “the Son of God” (Mark 1:1).
and the same. They both had the same mission to accomplish for God the Father. The Father sent them to the earth at different timA more accurate translation of Colossians 1:15 is “He is the image of the invisible God, the one who is first over all creation. The transliteration word ‘prōtotokos’ (translated as firstborn) derives from πρῶτος (protos, meaning “first”) and τίκτω (tikto, meaning “to bear” or “to bring forth”). He is the first to bring forth creation…not the firstborn of creation. He is not a created being.
In Genesis 1:1-2, we see God the Father and God the Holy Spirit in the creation account. In Genesis, God speaks of himself with plural pronouns: “Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.’ This is very unusual, happening in only three other places in the whole Bible.
In John 1:1-3, we see the second Person of the Trinity in the creation, God the Word (Jesus Christ, the Son). “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
John 1:14-17 explain who this Word was. “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. The transliteration word ‘monogenous’ (translated as begotten), “as of an only begotten,” can mean ‘only,’ ‘only begotten’ or ‘unique.’
Also, the firstborn, or first-begotten, in this passage, may signify the heir, or Lord: of the whole creation. For, anciently, the firstborn was entitled to possess his father’s estate.
The Word (Logos) was the Son of God in his incarnation. He was born like a man (through a woman), Son of Man, but was conceived uniquely by God the Holy Spirit, Son of God. “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:5-7).
In the Old Testament the Word came to earth as a messenger (meaning of Angel) to accomplish the Father’s will and word. He was called the Angel of the LORD. As Christ is the second Person of the Triune God in the New Testament, the Angel of the Lord is the second Person of the Trinity in the Old Testament. The Angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, “whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2). They are One and the same. They both had the same mission to accomplish for God the Father. The Father sent them to the earth at different times to deal with mankind and to accomplish His eternal will and plan of salvation for all humankind.
In Genesis 19:24, concerning Sodom and Gomorrah, it says, “Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven. The LORD on earth was the Angel of the LORD (the Word, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ). The LORD out of heaven was the Father (the Almighty). Of course, the word LORD means Yahweh, the name of God.
Both Daniel and John had a vision of God. Daniel saw the Ancient of Days, the Father. Here is his description: “I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, and its wheels a burning fire; A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, and the books were opened” (Daniel 7:9-10).
John’s vision was of God, the Son: “One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength” (Revelation 1:12-16).
The descriptions of the Father and Son sound similar, don’t they? In the New Testament, Jesus said, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). “Jesus said to him [Philip], ‘Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’” (John 14:9).
RGN—A more accurate translation of Colossians 1:15 is “He is the image of the invisible God, the one who is first over all creation. The transliteration word ‘prōtotokos’ (translated as firstborn) derives from πρῶτος (protos, meaning “first”) and τίκτω (tikto, meaning “to bear” or “to bring forth”). He is the first to bring forth creation…not the firstborn of creation. He is not a created being.
BA—Yes, he is. “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation” (Colossians 1:15 ESV). The Bible says he was created first. Then, “through him God created all things” (Colossians 1:16 NAB). “Christ . . . is preeminent and supreme as God’s agent in the creation of all things” (NAB footnote on Colossians 1:16).
RGN—In Genesis 1:1-2, we see God the Father and God the Holy Spirit in the creation account. In Genesis, God speaks of himself with plural pronouns: “Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.’ This is very unusual, happening in only three other places in the whole Bible.
BA—No, God was speaking to his Son, Jesus, because “God is only one” (Galatians 3:20 NASB).
RGN—In John 1:1-3, we see the second Person of the Trinity in the creation, God the Word (Jesus Christ, the Son). “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
John 1:14-17 explain who this Word was. “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. The transliteration word ‘monogenous’ (translated as begotten), “as of an only begotten,” can mean ‘only,’ ‘only begotten’ or ‘unique.’
BA—Jesus is “the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father”, but he is not the Almighty “God” whom “no one has ever seen” (John 1:18 NASB), and who is “his God and Father” (Revelation 1:5,6).
RGN—“that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
BA—These words are “not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century” (NIV note on 1 John 5:7,8).
RGN—In the Old Testament the Word came to earth as a messenger (meaning of Angel) to accomplish the Father’s will and word. He was called the Angel of the LORD.
BA—The scriptures never say any such thing! Hebrews 1:5-14 clearly makes the case that Jesus is not an angel.
RGN—As Christ is the second Person of the Triune God in the New Testament, the Angel of the Lord is the second Person of the Trinity in the Old Testament.
BA—The expression, “The second person of the Trinity”, is never mentioned in the Bible.
RGN—The Angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, “whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2). They are One and the same.
BA—The Bible never says that Jesus is an angel. The Hebrew word “olam” means “from of old, from ancient times” (Micah 5:2 NIV).
RGN—In Genesis 19:24, concerning Sodom and Gomorrah, it says, “Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven. The LORD on earth was the Angel of the LORD (the Word, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ). The LORD out of heaven was the Father (the Almighty). Of course, the word LORD means Yahweh, the name of God.
BA—No, “Yahweh” is “God Almighty” (Exodus 6:2,3). Jesus made clear that he is not Yahweh (Matthew 22:41-46:Psalm 110:1).
RGN—Daniel saw the Ancient of Days, the Father. Here is his description: “I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated;
John’s vision was of God, the Son: “One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength” (Revelation 1:12-16).
BA—No, “the Son of Man . . . came to the Ancient of Days” and “was given dominion and glory and a kingdom” (Daniel 7:13,14 NKJV). The scriptures make it obvious that “the Son of Man” is not “the Ancient of Days”.
RGN—The descriptions of the Father and Son sound similar, don’t they?
BA—Yes, however, the scriptures make clear that Jesus is “the IMAGE of the invisible God” “and the EXPRESS IMAGE of his person” (Hebrews 1:3 NKJV), but not Almighty God. They are similar, but nor the same.
RGN— In the New Testament, Jesus said, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30).
BA—Yes, they are “one”, in unity, but so are the disciples (John 17:11,21-23).
RGN—“Jesus said to him [Philip], ‘Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’” (John 14:9).
BA—Surely, you’re not claiming that Jesus is “the Father”, are you? Jesus is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15).
In the New Testament, Jesus said, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). “Jesus said to him [Philip], ‘Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’” (John 14:9).
Most of the Christophanies in the Old Testament are accomplished by the entity called “the Angel of the Lord.” The word Angel is translated as messenger, and Lord is translated as Jehovah in the Hebrew language. So the Angel of the Lord is not actually a created angel but is the Messenger of Jehovah. As Christ is the second Person of the Triune God in the New Testament, the Angel of the Lord is the second Person of the Trinity in the Old Testament. The Angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ, “whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2). They are One and the same, for they both had the same mission to accomplish for God the Father. The Father sent them to the earth at different times to deal with mankind and to accomplish His eternal will and plan of salvation for them.
“The combined testimony of these theophany passages (regarding the 2nd Person of the Trinity) portrays the Son of God as exceedingly active in the Old Testament, dealing with sin, providing for those in need, guiding in the path of the will of God, protecting His people from their enemies and, in general, executing the providence of God. The revelation of the person of the Son of God thus afforded is in complete harmony with the New Testament revelation. The testimony of Scripture has been so complete on this point that, in general, scholars who accept the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture are agreed that the Angel of Jehovah is the Christ of the Old Testament. Not only Christian theologians but Jewish scholars as well have come to the conclusion that the Angel of Jehovah is more than an angel.
The first appearance of the Angel of the Lord is found in Genesis 16:7-11 when Hagar (Sarai’s maid) fled into the wilderness. After Hagar had conceived (with Abram’s seed) she grew bitter toward Sarai, so Sarai in turn treated her harshly. Hagar then fled into the wilderness.
“And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where did you come from and where are you going? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress, Sarai. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hands. And the angel of the Lord said unto her: I will multiply your seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for it is such a multitude. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Ishmael; because the Lord has heard your affliction.” This is no ordinary angel to prophesy like that.
After the Angel of the Lord talked to Hagar, this is her reply as recorded by the prophet Moses: “Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her (Angel of the Lord), ‘You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, Have I also here seen Him who sees me?’” (Genesis 16:13). Clearly Hagar recognized this person to be God (in human form). “And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son’s name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael. And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ismael to Abram” (Genesis 16:15-16).
When Isaac was still a child, Sarah caught Ishmael mocking her son and then demanded Abraham cast out Hagar and Ishmael. Abraham did as the boss (Sarah) told him and gave them a small amount of food and water and sent them into the wilderness. After their supplies ran out and they were dying, Hagar lifted up her voice and wept. “And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, ‘What ails you, Hagar? Fear not; for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is’” (Genesis 21:17).
The Angel of the Lord doesn’t appear in person, but rather speaks to Hagar out of heaven. In verse 18, the Angel of the Lord tells Hagar that her son will live and He will bless him by making unto him a great nation. “Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in your hand; for I (the Angel of the Lord) will make him a great nation” (Genesis 21:18).
The next mention of the Angel of the Lord is found in Genesis 22. God decided to test Abraham’s faith and told him to take his only son, Isaac, and offer him as a burnt sacrifice to the Lord. Abraham took him to Mount Moriah (next to Salem) “and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham. And he said, ‘Here am I.’ And he (Angel of the Lord) said, Do not lay your hand upon the lad, neither do any thing unto him: for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son from me‘” (Genesis 22:9-12). FROM ME! The angel of the LORD is God (pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the Word, the Son).
Abraham looked around and saw a ram caught in a thicket by his horns, so he took it and offered it up for a burnt offering in place of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh which means In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen. “And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, and said, ‘By myself have I sworn, says the Lord, for because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son: that in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and your seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because you have obeyed my voice‘” (Genesis 22:15-18).
“And it came to pass at the time the cattle conceived, Jacob had a dream where the angel of God spoke to him, saying: Jacob: And I said, Here am I. And he said, Lift up now your eyes, and see; all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban does unto you. I AM the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar, and where you vowed a vow unto me; now arise, get out from this land (Mesopotamia/Haran), and return unto the land of your kindred in Canaan” (Genesis 31:10-13). In verse 11, the angel of God (or angel of the Lord) speaks to Jacob in a dream. In verse 13, He tells Jacob that I AM the God of Bethel (where Jacob had encountered Him decades earlier). This confirms that the angel of the Lord is God as one Person of Elohim.
Moses kept the flock of Jethro, his father-in-law. One day, he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, Mount Horeb. “The Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. So Moses said, I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up. When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, Moses, Moses! And he said, Here I am.
“Then He said, Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. He said also, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God” (Exodus 3:2-6). There are many more examples.
BA—No, “Yahweh” is “God Almighty” (Exodus 6:2,3). Jesus made clear that he is not Yahweh (Matthew 22:41-46:Psalm 110:1).
RGN- No, when you see the word LORD in the Old Testament, it is the English word for YHVH or Yahweh or Jehovah. Elohim is God or gods. Exodus 3:15 (BSB): “God also told Moses, ‘Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.” “Exodus 6:3 says, I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty (El Shaddai), but I didn’t reveal myself to them by my name ‘The Lord. (Yahweh).’ God has many names.
BA—No, “the Son of Man . . . came to the Ancient of Days” and “was given dominion and glory and a kingdom” (Daniel 7:13,14 NKJV). The scriptures make it obvious that “the Son of Man” is not “the Ancient of Days”.
RGN- No, Daniel saw the Father, the Ancient of Days. In Revelation, John saw the Son, One like the Son of Man. Their description is almost identical.
BA—Surely, you’re not claiming that Jesus is “the Father”, are you? Jesus is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15).
RGN- No, I am just quoting scripture. Jesus told Phillip, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’” (John 14:9).
This means they are both (Father, and Son) God (along with the Holy Spirit). The Tri-unity or Trinity or the Godhead. IMO.
RGN—Most of the Christophanies in the Old Testament are accomplished by the entity called “the Angel of the Lord.”
BA—There are no Christophanies in the OT. Not a single scripture supports such an idea. “And now he has made all of this plain to us by the appearing of Christ Jesus, our Savior” (2 Timothy 2:10 NIV). Jesus was alive all during the OT, but never appeared on earth until the NT.
RGN—The word Angel is translated as messenger, and Lord is translated as Jehovah in the Hebrew language. So the Angel of the Lord is not actually a created angel but is the Messenger of Jehovah.
BA—“Yet if there is an angel at their side, a messenger, one out of a thousand, sent to tell them how to be upright” (Job 33:23 NIV). All angels are God’s messengers. “All of you mighty angels, who obey God’s commands, come and praise your LORD! ” (Psalm 103:20 CEV). All angels were created by God. “Praise Yahweh . . . all his angels” (Psalm 148:1,2 NJB).
RGN—As Christ is the second Person of the Triune God in the New Testament, the Angel of the Lord is the second Person of the Trinity in the Old Testament.
BA—There is no second Person of the Triune God in the New Testament or second Person of the Trinity in the Old Testament.
RGN—The Angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ,
BA—The Bible never says any such thing. Hebrews 1:4-14 makes clear Jesus is not an angel.
RGN—The testimony of Scripture has been so complete on this point that, in general, scholars who accept the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture are agreed that the Angel of Jehovah is the Christ of the Old Testament. Not only Christian theologians but Jewish scholars as well have come to the conclusion that the Angel of Jehovah is more than an angel.
BA—There is no scripture that says Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh” (Exodus 14:19 NJB).
You’ve quoted several scriptures where angels represent Almighty God Yahweh to humans, but they are still angels. The Bible never implies they are anything more than angels. With Jacob, for example, Hosea 12:4 says, “he struggled with the angel” (NIV).
RGN—God has many names.
BA—No, God has only one name, according to the Bible. “I am Yahweh, that is my name!” (Isaiah 42:8 NJB). But God has many titles.
RGN—BA—No, “the Son of Man . . . came to the Ancient of Days” and “was given dominion and glory and a kingdom” (Daniel 7:13,14 NKJV). The scriptures make it obvious that “the Son of Man” is not “the Ancient of Days”.
RGN- No, Daniel saw the Father, the Ancient of Days
BA—-If you’ll read Daniel 7:13,14, you’ll see that Daniel also saw “the Son of Man”.
RGN—In Revelation, John saw the Son, One like the Son of Man. Their description is almost identical.
BA—Similar, but in the same context, the scriptures refer to Jesus’ “God and Father” (Revelation 1:5,6).
RGN— “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’” (John 14:9).
This means they are both (Father, and Son) God (along with the Holy Spirit). The Tri-unity or Trinity or the Godhead.
BA—There is no mention of the holy Spirit, Tri-unity, Trinity, or Godhead, in John 14:9. Neither is Jesus called God in John 14:9.
The fact is that the scriptures are clear that, “NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD” (1 John 4:9 NIV). “No one may see me and live” (Exodus 22:20 NIV).
BA—The Bible never says any such thing. Hebrews 1:4-14 makes clear Jesus is not an angel.
RGN- How many times do I have to tell you. I’m not saying Jesus is an angel! I’m saying the Angel of the Lord is not an angel but the Messenger of the Lord. Hebrew – mălʼâk, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger. I’m saying the Angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus. He is also called the Son of God and the Word. All the examples I gave you indicate this being is more than an Angel. I didn’t think I would have to explain these verses to you, but I guess I will have to.
Regarding Hagar, “And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? Question: Who spoke to Hagar? Answer: the angel of the LORD. SHE CALLED THE NAME OF THE LORD THAT SPOKE TO HER….Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her (the Angel of the Lord is the one who spoke to her), ‘You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, Have I also here seen Him who sees me?’” (Genesis 16:13). Clearly Hagar recognized this person to be God (in human form).
In Genesis 21:17,18 “And God heard the voice of the lad. Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, “What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation.” Question: Who is talking. Answer: the angel of God. If the angel of God is talking and says I will make him a great nation, that means this is no mere angel. God is the only one who can do that (as in the pre-incarnate Jesus, aka the Word).
Genesis 22:11-12 says, But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.” And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” The angel of the LORD said FROM ME! In other words, he is relating God to Me (the angel of the LORD, the one talking).
Genesis 22:15-18: Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven…..In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” Whose voice is My voice. The voice of the angel of the LORD. It is the voice of the WORD.
Genesis 31:11-13 – Jacob had a dream where the angel of God spoke to him, saying: Jacob…… I AM the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar, and where you vowed a vow unto me; now arise, get out from this land (Mesopotamia/Haran), and return unto the land of your kindred in Canaan.” Who spoke. The angel of God. What did he call himself? He said, I Am (another name for God) the God of Bethel… Again, it is the voice of the WORD (pre-incarnate Son of God, Jesus). You’re not saying God can’t speak for Himself, so He has to get an angel to do it for him are you?
Exodus 3:2-6 – ““The angel of the LORD appeared to him (Moses) in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush…..When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, Moses, Moses! And he said, Here I am.
“Then He said, Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. He said also, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God” Who appeared to Moses in a burning bush? The angel of the LORD. Who called to Moses from the bush? God. Who did the angel of the LORD say he was? The God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. aka. the WORD (pre-incarnate Jesus Christ).
These scriptures (and many others) make it clear the Messenger (Angel) of the Lord is more than an Angel. And just because the Bible doesn’t say Jesus was the Angel of the LORD doesn’t mean he isn’t. The Bible doesn’t mention the word Bible either. The pre-incarnate Jesus is the one Micah is referring to: “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel” (Micah 5:2-3). Jesus is this ruler in Israel (especially in the millennium) whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
I know the word Trinity isn’t in the Bible, and it doesn’t explicitly say it includes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. However, Matthew 28:16-19 says, “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” If Jesus isn’t God, was it wrong for the disciples to worship him? And why would they baptize in the name of this trinity?
RGN—I’m saying the Angel of the Lord is not an angel but the Messenger of the Lord.
BA—This is almost unbelievable! When the scriptures say, “the angel of Yahweh” (Exodus 14:19 NJB), we’re not to believe what they say? The scriptures make clear that all angels are messengers. We’ll stick with the scriptures. When the scriptures say it is an angel, it’s an angel. Case closed!
RGN—Hebrew – mălʼâk, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger.
BA—True, that’s scriptural.
RGN—I’m saying the Angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus.
BA—Here’s where you jump from fact to fiction.
RGN—Regarding Hagar, “And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? Question: Who spoke to Hagar? Answer: the angel of the LORD. SHE CALLED THE NAME OF THE LORD THAT SPOKE TO HER….Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her (the Angel of the Lord is the one who spoke to her), ‘You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, Have I also here seen Him who sees me?’” (Genesis 16:13). Clearly Hagar recognized this person to be God (in human form).
BA—No, the scriptures are clear this is “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7 NJB)
RGN—In Genesis 21:17,18 “And God heard the voice of the lad. Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, “What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation.” Question: Who is talking. Answer: the angel of God. If the angel of God is talking and says I will make him a great nation, that means this is no mere angel. God is the only one who can do that (as in the pre-incarnate Jesus, aka the Word).
BA—No, according to the scriptures, it actually wasn’t until “these last days” that “God” “has spoken us by his Son” (Hebrews 1:1,2 ESV).
RGN—Genesis 22:11-12 says, But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.” And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” The angel of the LORD said FROM ME! In other words, he is relating God to Me (the angel of the LORD, the one talking).
Genesis 22:15-18: Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven…..In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” Whose voice is My voice. The voice of the angel of the LORD. It is the voice of the WORD.
BA—No, you’re reading something into the text that isn’t there. The scriptures are abundantly clear that “the angel of Yahweh called him”, “Abraham” (Genesis 22:11,15 NJB).
RGN—Genesis 31:11-13 – Jacob had a dream where the angel of God spoke to him, saying: Jacob…… I AM the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar, and where you vowed a vow unto me; now arise, get out from this land (Mesopotamia/Haran), and return unto the land of your kindred in Canaan.” Who spoke. The angel of God. What did he call himself? He said, I Am (another name for God) the God of Bethel… Again, it is the voice of the WORD (pre-incarnate Son of God, Jesus). You’re not saying God can’t speak for Himself, so He has to get an angel to do it for him are you?
BA—It is the scriptures, not us, that are saying “the angel of God spoke to him”. God CAN do anything, of course, but the scriptures are clear that he spoke through angels representing him. It is not for us to read into the scriptures something that is not there.
Saying “I am” doesn’t make one God. For example, the healed blind man said “I am” (John 9:9), but that doesn’t make him God.
RGN—Exodus 3:2-6 – ““The angel of the LORD appeared to him (Moses) in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush…..When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, Moses, Moses! And he said, Here I am. “Then He said, Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. He said also, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God” Who appeared to Moses in a burning bush? The angel of the LORD. Who called to Moses from the bush? God. Who did the angel of the LORD say he was? The God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. aka. the WORD (pre-incarnate Jesus Christ).
BA—-No, according to the scriptures, it actually wasn’t until “these last days” that “God” “has spoken us by his Son” (Hebrews 1:1,2 ESV). After Christ’s resurrection, the scriptures make plain, “an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fore in a bush” (Acts 7:30 ESV).
RGN—These scriptures (and many others) make it clear the Messenger (Angel) of the Lord is more than an Angel. And just because the Bible doesn’t say Jesus was the Angel of the LORD doesn’t mean he isn’t. The Bible doesn’t mention the word Bible either. The pre-incarnate Jesus is the one Micah is referring to: “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel” (Micah 5:2-3). Jesus is this ruler in Israel (especially in the millennium) whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
BA—The fact that Jesus was in existence at that time doesn’t make him “the angel of Yahweh” who spoke to humans.
RGN—I know the word Trinity isn’t in the Bible, and it doesn’t explicitly say it includes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. However, Matthew 28:16-19 says, “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” If Jesus isn’t God, was it wrong for the disciples to worship him? And why would they baptize in the name of this trinity?
BA—That account says nothing about any Trinity, or that the Son and the holy Spirit are God. Below are two more accurate translations than the KJV:
“When they saw him, they worshipped, but some doubted” (Matthew 28:17 CSB). It doesn’t say they worshipped Jesus.
“When they saw him, they fell down before though some doubted” (Matthew 28:17 NJB).
Some people today say they have seen God. Preachers teach that people in the Bible saw God. Is this true? What does the Bible say?
“The Son is the image of the invisible God”—Colossians 1:15 NIV
“To the King eternal, immortal, invisible”—1 Timothy 1:17 NIV
The Bible says that Almighty God is invisible. What is invisible cannot be seen by human eyes. He has always been “invisible”. “I, Yahweh, do not change” (Malachi 3:6 NJB)
“Yahweh said, ‘ . . . no human being can see me and survive.”—Exodus 33:20 NJB
“No one has ever seen God”—John 1:18 NIV; 1 John 4:12 NIV
“No one has ever seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father”—John 6:46 NIV
“God . . . who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see”—1 Timothy 6:15,16 NIV
Thus, the scriptures throughout the entire Bible are very clear that no one has ever seen God!
What about those instances where someone is said to have seen God? One thing to keep in mind is that, “In the past spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and IN VARIOUS WAYS” (Hebrews 1:1 NIV). (Emphasis ours)
Angels at times spoke or acted on behalf of God. —See Genesis 16:7-13
“Yahweh appeared to him at the Oak of Mamre . . . and there he saw three men standing near him” (Genesis 18:1,2 NJB). One of these angels represented Yahweh. “While the men left there and went to Sodom, Yahweh remained in Abraham’s presence” (Genesis 18:22 NJB). “When he had finished talking to Abraham Yahweh went away . . . When the two angels reached Sodom in the evening . . . “—Genesis 18:33; 19:1 NJB). This is a clear indication that the “men” were materized “angels”. Hebrews 13:2 confirms that “some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it” (NIV).
“Jacob” said, ‘I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared'” (Genesis 32:30 NIV), after “He struggled with the angel and overcame him” (Hosea 12:4 NIV). The angel was not God, but represented God.
“Manoah said to his wife, ‘We are certain to die because we have seen God'”. Taken out of context, this looks like the had actually “seen God”. But had they? The context reveals: “Manoah understood that this had been the angel of Yahweh.” (Judges 13:21,20 NJB).
Sometimes God was seen in visions.
“The word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision”—Genesis 15:1 NJB
“Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel . . . they saw God, and they ate and drank” (Exodus 24:9-11 NIV). This is often cited by those who like to believe that Almighty God has been seen by humans. However, if this rendering is literally true, it contradicts other scriptures which say that ‘No one has ever seen God.” The Hebrew can also be rendered as, “they had a vision of God, and did eat and drink” (Exodus 24:11 The Emphasized Bible [EB]). (Emphasis ours)
“God spoke to Israel in a vision at night and said, ‘ . . . I am God, the God of your father'”—Genesis 46:2,3 NIV (Emphasis ours)
“My eyes have the King, Yahweh Saboath” (Isaiah 6:5 NJB) is often cited as “proof” that Isaiah had “seen the LORD Almighty”. However, this claim is debunked when the wider context of the Book of Isaiah and the entire Bible is taken into consideration. For instance, “These are the visions that Isaiah son of Amos saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. He saw these visionsduring the years when Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah were kings of Judah” (Isaiah 1:1 NLT). Thus, the Book of Isaiah opens with an explanation of how Isaiah received his information—It was through “visions”. (Emphasis ours)
Ezekiel 1:26-29 is sometimes asserted by those who want to believe that Ezekiel saw Almighty, however, Ezekiel opened his book by explaining: “the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God” (Ezekiel 1:1 NIV). So, any seeming view “of God” is explained to be in “visions”.
Stephen “looked up intently to heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said. ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God” (Acts 7:55,56 NAB). This account is also used to “prove” that Almighty God. However, the phrase “the heavens opened” is almost identical to Ezekiel’s phrase “the heavens were opened,” where he explained he “saw visions of God”. Once again, when the wider context of the entire Bible is considered, it is obvious that Stephen had a vision of God and Jesus.
“The Lord called to him in a vision, ‘Ananias!'”—Acts 9:10 NIV. The account is narrated to explain that Ananias had “a vision” of “the Lord”.
How about where, “Yahweh said: ‘ . . . if there is a prophet among you, I reveal myself to him in a vision, I speak to him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses . . . to him I speak face to face . . . he sees Yahweh’s form'” (Numbers 12:6-8 NJB)? This is asserted to mean that Moses actually literally saw God. But, yet again, when we consider both the local and the wider Biblical context, Almighty God explains what he means, “to him I speak . . . plainly and not in riddles” (Numbers 12:8 NJB), and when Moses asked to see God, “Yahweh said,’ . . . no human being can see me and survive'” (Exodus 33:19,20 NJB).
Thus, the entire Bible is very clear that, “No one has ever seen God” (1 John 4:12 NIV), because he is “invisible” (1 Timothy 1:17 NIV)..
BA—This is almost unbelievable! When the scriptures say, “the angel of Yahweh” (Exodus 14:19 NJB), we’re not to believe what they say? The scriptures make clear that all angels are messengers. We’ll stick with the scriptures. When the scriptures say it is an angel, it’s an angel. Case closed!
RGN – Yes, it is unbelievable. The Hebrew scriptures don’t say, “the angel of Yahweh.” They say “mal-’aḵ Yah-weh” Of course, we know the second word “Yahweh” is translated as “LORD” or “Jehovah” in most translations. The first word “mal-’aḵ’ is translated in the KJV as “angel” 111 times and as “messenger” 98 times, and as ambassador 4 times. From the Scripture I showed you in my previous comments, it is clear this is no ordinary angel. In fact, He is no angel at all. He is the Messenger of God. Just as Jesus was God’s messenger during New Testament times, so was “the angel of the LORD” God’s messenger in Old Testament times. They are one and the same. The verses I mentioned (and many more) prove the angel of the LORD was God Himself, thus the second Person of the Trinity. The word “messenger” has every right to be the correct translation as the word “angel” does. Even more when you consider the content of these scriptures. Just because your interpretation of malak doesn’t supersede my interpretation as they are both valid. Who made you the arbiter of truth.
BA—No, the scriptures are clear this is “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7 NJB)
RGN – No, the scriptures are clear this is “the messenger of Yahweh (Genesis 16:7 CEB, GW, NOG, VOICE, YLT). See, I can say “No” too. The EXB translations says “The ·angel [messenger] of the Lord [C the angel of the Lord was either a representative of the Lord or the Lord himself; v. 13; Judg. 6:11, 14]”
BA—No, you’re reading something into the text that isn’t there. The scriptures are abundantly clear that “the angel of Yahweh called him”, “Abraham” (Genesis 22:11,15 NJB).
BA – Yes, it was the “angel”of Yahweh who called him from heaven. But the question remains, was it a mere angel (or some special angel) or was it the special “messenger” of Yahweh. Why would God choose to talk through an angel? The scriptures I quoted indicate this being was God Himself. The only explanation for this is He is part of the Trinity.
BA—-No, according to the scriptures, it actually wasn’t until “these last days” that “God” “has spoken us by his Son” (Hebrews 1:1,2 ESV). After Christ’s resurrection, the scriptures make plain, “an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fore in a bush” (Acts 7:30 ESV).
RGN – No, the word (transliteration) is angelos (from aggello [probably derived from ἄγω (G71), cf ἀγέλη (G34)] (to bring tidings)} which can be translated as messenger or angel. Why don’t you go to the source of this quote in Acts? ” And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.”(Exodus 3:2, 4-6). Are you saying God jumped into the bush with the angel of the LORD? It says God called unto him out of the bush and talked to Moses. So, who was talking? Was it God or the Angel?
BA—The fact that Jesus was in existence at that time doesn’t make him “the angel of Yahweh” who spoke to humans.
RGN – It doesn’t discount it either. They both gave messages from God, the Father and did His will.
Why would God create a being (in your opinion), the Son, the firstborn of all creation, who “through him” God created the universe and then the Son doesn’t take part in any of the events mentioned in scriptures of the Old Testament? Instead, in your opinion, it is an angel who intercedes in the lives and events of the people on Earth during O.T. times. The “angel of the Lord” is mentioned 56 times in the O.T. The Son of God is mentioned once in the O.T. Why did God work through the angel of the Lord instead of the Son of God during these times? Is he just waiting for the incarnation to take place so he can become active?
Also, why would God’s plan of salvation be contingent on believing in God and an (originally) created being? “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:1,6).
Who do you think the Holy Spirit is? “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Was Jesus conceived by the Holy Ghost or the Father? If Jesus’ mother was a human and his father was God, what does that make him (in your opinion)? In his pre-incarnation you believe him to merely be a created being, not an angel and not God. Is Jesus just another created being (like Adam and the angels) or is he divine? If he is divine, how is he not God (or part of God)? How does that work? If Jesus, the Son of God, is a created being (like he was in his pre-incarnate days according to your view) why would God want mankind to come through him to get to the Father? None of it makes sense.
RGN—Who do you think the Holy Spirit is? “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Was Jesus conceived by the Holy Ghost or the Father? If Jesus’ mother was a human and his father was God, what does that make him (in your opinion)? In his pre-incarnation you believe him to merely be a created being, not an angel and not God. Is Jesus just another created being (like Adam and the angels) or is he divine? If he is divine, how is he not God (or part of God)? How does that work? If Jesus, the Son of God, is a created being (like he was in his pre-incarnate days according to your view) why would God want mankind to come through him to get to the Father? None of it makes sense.
BA—God used his holy Spirit to cause Mary to become pregnant with the life of Jesus. Notice:
“The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God”—Luke 1:32 NAB
God’s holy Spirit is God’s “power”. Jesus was “fully human in every way” (Hebrews 2:17 NIV). He was not “JUST a human being”. “The Word was divine” (John 1:1 AAT), “the Father’s only Son” (John 1:14 NAB), “in the beginning with God” (John 1:2 NAB). The Almighty God does not deal with humans directly because of sin (Habakkuk 1:13). This is why he uses Jesus as “the one mediator between God and mankind” (1 Timothy 2:5 NIV).
It is often said that the holy Spirit is “the third person of the Trinity”, the three-in-one Godhead. Can it be, however, that there can be a part of the holy Spirit, only “a portion” of the holy Spirit? Yes, this is exactly what the scriptures themselves indicate, as we will see from the following scriptures:
“The LORD then came down in the cloud and spoke to him. Taking some of the spirit that was on Moses, he bestowed it on the seventy elders; and as the spirit came to rest on them, they prophesied but did not continue”—Numbers 11:25 NAB
“And it shall be after these things, I will pour out of my spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy”—Joel 2:28 NETS
“Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union?”—Malachi 2:15 ESV
“For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God. He does not ration his gift of the Spirit”—John 3:34 NAB
“‘It will come to pass in the last days’, God says, ‘that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh'”—Acts 2:17 NAB
“The blessing of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the participation in the holy Spirit be with you all”—2 Corinthians 13:14 AAT
“Renewal in the Holy Spirit which he has so generously poured over us through Jesus Christ our Saviour”—Titus 3:6 NJB
“He has given us a share in his Spirit”—1 John 4:13 NJB
The phraseology, “some of the spirit”, “a portion of”, “pour out of”, “his gift of”, “participation in”, “a share in”, all combine to indicate that the holy Spirit is not a person.
In the Bible, particularly the New Testament letters, greetings are given from God and Jesus in 20 of the 21 New Testament canonical letters. We know that God the Father and Jesus Christ are both persons, so we should expect to see their greetings, and we do in these 20 letters. (Third John does not have such a greeting or praises.) But what about the Holy Spirit and the Trinity? If the holy Spirit is a person, or if the Trinity is a real entity, we should expect to see some type of greetings from the holy Spirit, and/or the Trinity, and/or praises to the holy spirit, or Trinity, as well. But is this the case? Let’s examine the greetings in the letters to find out.
Greetings
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7)
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 1:3)
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Corinthians 1:2)
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:3)
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Ephesians 1:2)
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:2)
“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God… grace and peace to you from God our Father.” (Colossians 1:1-2)
“To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 1:1)
“Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thessalonians 1:2)
“Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.” (1 Timother 1:2)
“Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” (Titus 1:4)
“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Philemon 1:3)
“In the past God spoke… through the prophets… but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.” (Hebrews 1:1-2)
“James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.” (James 1:1)
“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 1:3)
“Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.” (2 Peter 1:2)
“Our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:3)
“Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son” (2 John 1:2)
“To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ” (Jude 1:1)
In the New Testament letters, greetings (and praises) are given from, and to, God and Jesus, but never from the holy Spirit or the Trinity. This is significant because if the Holy Spirit was actually a person, or the Trinity was a real entity, we would see greetings from it – or them – or him. Since we never see greetings from, or praises to, the holy Spirit or the Trinity, but we do from God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, this is a strong indication the holy Spirit is not a person, and the Trinity does not actually exist. How about praises in the New Testament?
Praises (other than greetings)
“Praise the LORD, all you Gentiles! Laud him, all you people” (Romans 15:11 NKJV). This verse is a quote from Psalm 117:1, which says, “praise Yahweh.” The holy Spirit is never called Yahweh in the Bible.
“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord our Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 1:3)
While God and Jesus are often praised in the Bible, there are no praises are ever given to the holy Spirit, which is another powerful evidence the holy Spirit is not a person.
RGN—The Hebrew scriptures don’t say, “the angel of Yahweh.” They say “mal-’aḵ Yah-weh” Of course, we know the second word “Yahweh” is translated as “LORD” or “Jehovah” in most translations. The first word “mal-’aḵ’ is translated in the KJV as “angel” 111 times and as “messenger” 98 times, and as ambassador 4 times. From the Scripture I showed you in my previous comments, it is clear this is no ordinary angel. In fact, He is no angel at all. He is the Messenger of God. Just as Jesus was God’s messenger during New Testament times, so was “the angel of the LORD” God’s messenger in Old Testament times. They are one and the same. The verses I mentioned (and many more) prove the angel of the LORD was God Himself, thus the second Person of the Trinity. The word “messenger” has every right to be the correct translation as the word “angel” does. Even more when you consider the content of these scriptures. Just because your interpretation of malak doesn’t supersede my interpretation as they are both valid. Who made you the arbiter of truth.
BA–Yes, the HS do say, “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7,13), and he cannot be Yahweh, because he is the angel of Yahweh. “The angel of the Lord appeared” to Joseph in a dream (Matthew 1:20,24) to tell him that Mary was pregnant with “Jesus” (Matthew 1:25). All angels are God’s messengers (Psalm 103:20).
“Interpretations belong to God” (Genesis 40:8 NIV). Scripture interprets scripture when one is “accurately handling the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15 NASB).
RGN—Yes, it was the “angel”of Yahweh who called him from heaven. But the question remains, was it a mere angel (or some special angel) or was it the special “messenger” of Yahweh. Why would God choose to talk through an angel? The scriptures I quoted indicate this being was God Himself. The only explanation for this is He is part of the Trinity.
BA—You’re reading things into the scriptures that aren’t there.You admit that it was an angel who spoke, but then you contradict yourself by claiming the angel “was God himself”.
RGN— Are you saying God jumped into the bush with the angel of the LORD? It says God called unto him out of the bush and talked to Moses. So, who was talking? Was it God or the Angel?
BA—God used the angel to speak for him. “The angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame blazing from the middle of a bush” (Exodus 3:2 NJB: Acts 7:30). The scriptures are clear on this.
RGN—Why would God create a being (in your opinion), the Son, the firstborn of all creation, who “through him” God created the universe and then the Son doesn’t take part in any of the events mentioned in scriptures of the Old Testament? Instead, in your opinion, it is an angel who intercedes in the lives and events of the people on Earth during O.T. times. The “angel of the Lord” is mentioned 56 times in the O.T. The Son of God is mentioned once in the O.T. Why did God work through the angel of the Lord instead of the Son of God during these times? Is he just waiting for the incarnation to take place so he can become active?
BA—“When time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman” (Galatians 4:4 NIV). We are warned “not to go beyond what is written in Scripture” (1 Corinthians 4:6 GWT), and not read into the scriptures things that aren’t there.
RGN—Also, why would God’s plan of salvation be contingent on believing in God and an (originally) created being?
BA—Because, “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement . . . so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus” (Romans 3:25 NIV).
RGN—“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:1,6).
BA–The scripture you quoted, John 14:1, proves that Jesus isn’t God, because it says “ye believe in God, believe also in me.” Jesus is saying he’s not God!!!
BA—You’re reading things into the scriptures that aren’t there. You admit that it was an angel who spoke, but then you contradict yourself by claiming the angel “was God himself”.
RGN – Once more. The “angel of the Lord” is one English translation. The other is the “messenger (or representative) of the Lord.” Hebrew – mălʼâk, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger. You think malak means the angel of the Lord. I think malak means the messenger of the Lord in the scriptures that mention “the angel/messenger of the Lord.” I choose to believe it was not an angel but the pre-incarnate Jesus (the Word). He is the messenger of the Lord in the Old Testament.
BA—You’re reading things into the scriptures that aren’t there. You admit that it was an angel who spoke, but then you contradict yourself by claiming the angel “was God himself”.
RGN – I am using your interpretation when I call him the “angel of the Lord.” However, if you use my interpretation “messenger of the Lord”, it is not an angel who spoke but
God Himself (the Word- second Person of the Trinity). There is no contradiction there. In fact, you are the one who is reading things into the scriptures when you say God is speaking through an angel. “She called the name of the LORD WHO SPOKE TO HER, “You are a God who sees,” for she said, “Here have I really seen him who sees me?” (EHV – Genesis 16:13). It doesn’t get any plainer than that. The messenger of the Lord speaks to her and she calls him God.
Here’s another one you add your own thoughts to. “The Lord’s ‘messenger’ called out to Abraham from heaven a second time, and said, I GIVE MY WORD AS THE LORD that because you did this and didn’t hold back your son, your only son.” (CEB – Genesis 22:15-16). It’s clear the Lord’s messenger is the Lord. How can this be if he is an angel. It can’t. The only way it’s possible is if the MESSENGE OF THE LORD is the Word (the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Trinity). I could keep going but I think you (should) get the point (probably not). You keep saying “God used the angel to speak for him.” Where in the scriptures does it say that? It doesn’t, you are adding your own thoughts to enhance your viewpoint.
BA—“When time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman” (Galatians 4:4 NIV). We are warned “not to go beyond what is written in Scripture” (1 Corinthians 4:6 GWT), and not read into the scriptures things that aren’t there.
RGN – You should heed your own advice. Yes, God sent the incarnate Son to the earth, Jesus, when the time had fully come. This is God’s messenger for this time, like the pre-incarnate Word (messenger of the Lord) was during the O.T. times. Two messengers, same Person. No angels involved. I think I have proved in the previous comments how you are the one who is reading things into the scriptures that aren’t there. Yes, no one has ever seen the Father (except the Son) but they have seen “the messenger of the Lord” and the Son (Jesus Christ).
BA–The scripture you quoted, John 14:1, proves that Jesus isn’t God, because it says “ye believe in God, believe also in me.” Jesus is saying he’s not God!!!
RGN – This is unbelievable! (to use your words). Jesus is not saying he’s not God. Where does it say that? Does it say, “you believe in God, believe also in me even though I’m not God? It’s just the opposite. Jesus is saying, you believe in God (the Father), believe also in me. If the disciples thought that Jesus was a created being, they wouldn’t have believed in him (and neither would I). Who was Jesus before the incarnation (when he was with the Father). Was he a created being, similar to the angels (like Michael, only greater) or was he divine from the beginning? I’m saying He was divine.
RGN—You think malak means the angel of the Lord. I think malak means the messenger of the Lord in the scriptures that mention “the angel/messenger of the Lord.”
BA—That’s what the scriptures say.
RGN— I choose to believe it was not an angel but the pre-incarnate Jesus (the Word). He is the messenger of the Lord in the Old Testament.
BA—Yes, that is your assumption. However, in the scriptures, “the angel of Yahweh” is always identified as an angel. For example, “the angel of the LORD said, ‘LORD Almighty . . . ” (Zechariah 1:12 NIV). Obviously, “the angel of the LORD” cannot be “the LORD Almighty”.
“Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?” (Mark 12:26 NIV). If Jesus was “the angel of the LORD” in the burning bush, he would have said, “I said to him”, rather than “God said to him”.
RGN – I am using your interpretation when I call him the “angel of the Lord.” However, if you use my interpretation “messenger of the Lord”, it is not an angel who spoke but God Himself (the Word- second Person of the Trinity). There is no contradiction there. In fact, you are the one who is reading things into the scriptures when you say God is speaking through an angel. “She called the name of the LORD WHO SPOKE TO HER, “You are a God who sees,” for she said, “Here have I really seen him who sees me?” (EHV – Genesis 16:13). It doesn’t get any plainer than that. The messenger of the Lord speaks to her and she calls him God.
BA—Four times in this account, he is called “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7,9,10,11 NJB). The scriptures never mention any “second person of the Trinity”, nor do they say that Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh.”
RGN—Here’s another one you add your own thoughts to. “The Lord’s ‘messenger’ called out to Abraham from heaven a second time, and said, I GIVE MY WORD AS THE LORD that because you did this and didn’t hold back your son, your only son.” (CEB – Genesis 22:15-16). It’s clear the Lord’s messenger is the Lord.
BA—No, the scriptures say it’s “the angel of Yahweh”.
RGN—How can this be if he is an angel.
BA—This is the principle of agency, which the Jews recognized. The angel, acting as God’s agent, spoke for him.
RGN—The only way it’s possible is if the MESSENGE OF THE LORD is the Word (the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Trinity).
BA—No, you’ve imagined that right into the account. The scriptures never mention any “second person of the Trinity”, nor do they say that Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh.”
RGN—Yes, God sent the incarnate Son to the earth, Jesus, when the time had fully come. This is God’s messenger for this time, like the pre-incarnate Word (messenger of the Lord) was during the O.T. times. Two messengers, same Person. No angels involved.
BA—Yes, according to the scriptures, “The angel of Yahweh” was/were an angel(s) who spoke and acted for God. “Bless Yahweh, all his angels, mighty warriors who fulfill his commands, attentive to the sound of his words. Bless Yahweh, all his armies, servants who fulfill his wishes” (Psalm 103:20,21 NJB).
However, “when the time had fully come, GOD SENT HIS SON” (Galatians 4:4 NIV). Hebrews 1:4-13 makes clear that Jesus is “much superior to the angels” (NIV).
RGN— Yes, no one has ever seen the Father (except the Son)
BA—The scriptures also say that “No one has ever seen God” (1 John 4:12 NIV), which means that Jesus cannot be God, since many people saw him.
RGN – This is unbelievable! (to use your words). Jesus is not saying he’s not God. Where does it say that? Does it say, “you believe in God, believe also in me even though I’m not God? It’s just the opposite. Jesus is saying, you believe in God (the Father), believe also in me. If the disciples thought that Jesus was a created being, they wouldn’t have believed in him (and neither would I). Who was Jesus before the incarnation (when he was with the Father). Was he a created being, similar to the angels (like Michael, only greater) or was he divine from the beginning? I’m saying He was divine.
BA—“The Word was divine . . . with God in the beginning” (John 1:1,2 AAT). Divine means godlike, or, of God. For example, ““Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel” (Acts 10:22 NASB). God directed this angel.
“You believe in God, believe also in me”. The language clearly indicates that God is someone other than Jesus.
Micah 5:2 reveals that Jesus’ “origins are from of old, from ancient times” (NIV). The scripture plainly makes the point that Jesus had a beginning. Therefore, he was created. Jesus’ disciples knew this scripture well (Matthew 2:4,5), so they had to know he was created.
BA—Yes, that is your assumption. However, in the scriptures, “the angel of Yahweh” is always identified as an angel. For example, “the angel of the LORD said, ‘LORD Almighty . . . ” (Zechariah 1:12 NIV). Obviously, “the angel of the LORD” cannot be “the LORD Almighty”.
RGN- If the correct translation of malak is “the Messenger of the LORD” where does it say he is an angel? mălʼâk, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to dispatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God.
BA – Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?” (Mark 12:26 NIV). If Jesus was “the angel of the LORD” in the burning bush, he would have said, “I said to him”, rather than “God said to him”.
RGN – Jesus is speaking in the third-person vernacular. Do you think he is going to go around saying “I did this as God” back in the good old days. The Jews would have killed him right there on the spot.
BA—Four times in this account, he is called “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7,9,10,11 NJB). The scriptures never mention any “second person of the Trinity”, nor do they say that Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh.”
RGN – No, four times he is called “the messenger of Yahweh (your interpretation of malak against mine). Yes, we know there is no mention of the word ‘Trinity’ in the Bible. If the messenger of the Lord isn’t an angel (and he’s not), that leaves one other person, the Word (the Word is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ according to John 1:14-17). You said Jesus was the one Micah referred to, only you used a translation that fits your viewpoint. Here is another translation for Micah 5:2, ” But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, you are little to be among the clans of Judah; [yet] out of you shall One come forth for Me Who is to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. (AMPC). Yes, his goings forth have been from of old as the Messenger of the Lord. Jesus Christ is the Messenger of the Lord of the New Testament.
BA – “You believe in God, believe also in me”. The language clearly indicates that God is someone other than Jesus.
RGN – No it doesn’t. Jesus is not going to go around claiming He is God. The Jews would kill him for blashphemy (which they did anyhow). The following is from John 10:29-36.
“My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
31 Again the Jews [d]brought up stones to stone Him.
32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?
33 The Jews replied, We are not going to stone You for a good act, but for blasphemy, because You, a mere [e]Man, make Yourself [out to be] God.
34 Jesus answered, Is it not written in your Law, I said, You are gods? (anytime the word gods is not capitalized in any translation it is meant to refer to angels or men but never Elohim.
35 So men are called gods [by the Law], men to whom God’s message came—and the Scripture cannot be set aside or cancelled or broken or annulled—
36 [If that is true] do you say of the One Whom the Father consecrated and dedicated and set apart for Himself and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I am not doing the works [performing the deeds] of My Father, then do not believe Me [do not adhere to Me and trust Me and rely on Me].
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe Me or have faith in Me, [at least] believe the works and have faith in what I do, in order that you may know and understand [clearly] that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father [One with Him].
Jesus is content to call himself the Son of God. And to call the Father, God. If Jesus was the Word (and he was) and the Word was God (second Person of the Trinity) but then was incarnated into a man, then he is not only God but also the Son of God. Only God can create. A created being cannot create. God Almighty doesn’t need someone to work through. If He did, he wouldn’t be All Mighty.
BA—Yes, that is your assumption. However, in the scriptures, “the angel of Yahweh” is always identified as an angel. For example, “the angel of the LORD said, ‘LORD Almighty . . . ” (Zechariah 1:12 NIV). Obviously, “the angel of the LORD” cannot be “the LORD Almighty”.
RGN- If the correct translation of malak is “the Messenger of the LORD” where does it say he is an angel? mălʼâk, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to dispatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God.
BA—“מַלְאַ֧ךְ (mal·’aḵ). Noun – masculine singular construct. Strong’s 4397: A messenger, of God, an angel.”
You’re attempting to inject Trinitarian ideas into a plain reading of the scriptures. The fact is that “the angel of Yahweh then spoke and said, ‘Yahweh . . . ‘ . . . Yahweh then replied with kind and comforting words to the angel who was talking to me” (Zechariah 1:12,13 NJB). Yahweh is someone other than “the angel of Yahweh”.
BA – Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?” (Mark 12:26 NIV). If Jesus was “the angel of the LORD” in the burning bush, he would have said, “I said to him”, rather than “God said to him”.
RGN – Jesus is speaking in the third-person vernacular. Do you think he is going to go around saying “I did this as God” back in the good old days. The Jews would have killed him right there on the spot.
BA—No, Jesus spoke the truth. Referring to God, he went on to say, “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Mark 12:27 NIV). You’re attempting to twist the scriptures to say something they don’t say, in order to support Trinitarian ideas.
BA—Four times in this account, he is called “the angel of Yahweh” (Genesis 16:7,9,10,11 NJB). The scriptures never mention any “second person of the Trinity”, nor do they say that Jesus was “the angel of Yahweh.”
RGN – No, four times he is called “the messenger of Yahweh (your interpretation of malak against mine).
BA—“Angel” means “messenger.” It’s the same thing. No difference. “Messenger of Yahweh” means he’s not Yahweh.
RGN—Yes, we know there is no mention of the word ‘Trinity’ in the Bible.
BA—Yes, and we should stick to believing in, and promoting, things that are actually IN the scriptures.
RGN— If the messenger of the Lord isn’t an angel (and he’s not),
BA—“If”???? – The problem with your interpretation is that the scriptures say he’s an angel. Every time “angel of Yahweh” is mentioned in the scriptures, he’s always identified as an angel. This is a vital point, because GOD IS NEVER CALLED AN ANGEL.
RGN—-that leaves one other person, the Word (the Word is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ according to John 1:14-17).
BA—According to Trinitarian dogma, “God the Son” is equal to “God the Father.” “The angel of Yahweh” is obviously not equal to Yahweh. “God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem” (1 Chronicles 21:15 NIV). Notice, “God” sent “the angel of Yahweh”. Later, “Yahweh felt sorry about the calamity and said to the angel who was destroying the people: ‘Enough now! Hold your hand!’ The angel of Yahweh was standing the threshing-floor of Araunah the Jebusite” (2 Samuel 24:16 NJB). These verses are not written as though there is any equality between God and the angel, as if angel was “God the Son”. Yahweh God is clearly the commander and controller over what the angel does.
RGN—You said Jesus was the one Micah referred to, only you used a translation that fits your viewpoint. Here is another translation for Micah 5:2, ” But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, you are little to be among the clans of Judah; [yet] out of you shall One come forth for Me Who is to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. (AMPC). Yes, his goings forth have been from of old as the Messenger of the Lord. Jesus Christ is the Messenger of the Lord of the New Testament.
BA—The translation you quoted of Micah 5:2 says the same thing!!! “Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. ” Jesus was definitely in existence during OT times and before, but Micah 5:2 says nothing about “his goings forth have been from of old as the Messenger of the Lord. Jesus Christ is the Messenger of the Lord of the New Testament.” You inserted a Trinitarian idea into the text.
BA – “You believe in God, believe also in me”. The language clearly indicates that God is someone other than Jesus.
RGN – No it doesn’t. Jesus is not going to go around claiming He is God. The Jews would kill him for blashphemy (which they did anyhow). The following is from John 10:29-36.
“My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
BA—They are “one” [Greek–“hen”, neuter gender], meaning “one” in unity (John 17:11,21-23), but not they are not the same person.
RGN—31 Again the Jews [d]brought up stones to stone Him.
32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?
33 The Jews replied, We are not going to stone You for a good act, but for blasphemy, because You, a mere [e]Man, make Yourself [out to be] God.
34 Jesus answered, Is it not written in your Law, I said, You are gods? (anytime the word gods is not capitalized in any translation it is meant to refer to angels or men but never Elohim.
BA—The human Israelite king is called “God” in Psalm 45:6, and he wasn’t “God the Father” or “God the Son”.
RGN—35 So men are called gods [by the Law], men to whom God’s message came—and the Scripture cannot be set aside or cancelled or broken or annulled—
36 [If that is true] do you say of the One Whom the Father consecrated and dedicated and set apart for Himself and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?
BA—That is all Jesus claimed to be; “the Son of God”, but never “God the Son”.
RGN—37 If I am not doing the works [performing the deeds] of My Father, then do not believe Me [do not adhere to Me and trust Me and rely on Me].
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe Me or have faith in Me, [at least] believe the works and have faith in what I do, in order that you may know and understand [clearly] that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father [One with Him].
Jesus is content to call himself the Son of God. And to call the Father, God.
BA—True.
RGN—If Jesus was the Word (and he was)
BA—True.
RGN—and the Word was God (second Person of the Trinity)
BA—The scriptures never mention, nor imply, any “second Person of the Trinity.”
RGN—but then was incarnated into a man, then he is not only God but also the Son of God.
BA—Jesus is “the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father”, but is not the “God” “no one has seen” (John 1:18 NASB).
RGN—Only God can create. A created being cannot create. God Almighty doesn’t need someone to work through. If He did, he wouldn’t be All Mighty.
BA—True, he doesn’t “need to”, but being Almighty, he “does whatever he pleases” (Job 23:13 NIV; Ecclesiastes 8:3 ESV).
May I ask? What is the point here?
Randy Gene Nettles is a Trinitarian. It is very awkward for Trinitarians to believe that Jesus is eternally co-equal and co-eternal with God, and yet he’s never mentioned in the Old Testament (OT), but the holy Spirit is. When we read the New Testament, however, we cannot miss the active role that Jesus plays as Savior and Head of the Church. To support their eternal Triune God dogma, Trinitarians have concocted the unscriptural idea that Jesus, as their “second person of the Trinity”, was “the angel of the LORD” who is mentioned a number of times in the OT.
This is the viewpoint that Randy Gene Nettles is arguing from, and we are defending what the scriptures actually say.
I see I got promoted to your Doctrines page, where at the end your husband says this, “We have examined this issue very carefully, and proven that Jesus was not “the Angel of the LORD” in the Old Testament.” He has only proven it to himself (and maybe you), certainly not me.